I cant find a decent bike

I live in Ottawa Canada and I am currently looking to buy a decent quality used bike... or a new one if it wont fall apart on me. I am really looking for front and rear suspension though. On an ebike I build a few years back it didnt matter how fat or at what pressure I ran the back tire, at 40kmh even a little crank in the pavement sent shockwaves through the bike.

Any bike I take an interest in on kijiji.ottawa the owners always seem to be asking a fraction less than what the bike sells for new. And the fact is I just dont know enough about bikes out there on the market to make a wise choice. I really just want a solid mountain bike with front and rear suspension. I'll buy from Walmsrt I dont care but i worry about dropping a few hundred on somkething that came from walkmart.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Are you already settled on what type of kit you want to add to the bike? because...that may have an effect on the frame suggestions. If you will be commuting under 20-MPH (32-k/h), you could use a Thudbuster seat-post on a hardtail. One of the additional benefits would be that...any frame space that is normally taken up with the rear shock absorber would be available for other components.

But if you are likely to be riding around near 30-MPH (48 k/h), then I believe the extra trouble of a full suspension frame would be better performing.

I'm planning on the 9c clone that BMS sells as a Q11. I was originally wanting the 500w geared hub they offer but I decided I cant live without regen braking. Plus less parts to wear makes me feel a little better and I want to assume it'll be quieter. I want stealthy so will have saddle bags that will hang low enough to hide the motor. The bike will be a commuter and will get used daily to go to work and back and also after work to friends and the pool ect. I feel I need suspension on the rear because the 48v10ah liFeP04 will be on the back adding to the stress of the rear rim and spokes. I'm guessing I will want another pack for the daily range I might cover and at that point will rig something up so it is a pack on either side of the rear wheel. I'm 230lbs as well... so that back wheel is going to need all the help it can get to soften the shocks it will have to endure at 30 to 40kmh. (I'd better make sure that motor can get me to 40kmh).

The thing about the rear shock assy's I see on the bikes in Walmart ect... is that they are so crappy and cheap. Basically just spring loaded junk but are better than a hardtail. I was hoping to find a used mtb that has real suspension but people are asking crazy amounts for years old beat up mtb's so quality suspension seems to be out of reach.

Have you looked at Bikes Direct. They wouldn't be my first choice in socal, but if the shipping isn't too brutal, might suffice for you.

Total budget? I'll have another custom frame up in for sale section this week that would be a nice match to the 9c clone if its of use. Link below.

Thanks for suggestions guys... my budget is only around $300-$400. I'm looking to build a regular looking mtb that isnt apparently electric so I need to start with a plain old mtb.

2old said:

Have you looked at Bikes Direct. They wouldn't be my first choice in socal, but if the shipping isn't too brutal, might suffice for you.

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I have a feeling that getting it over the border will add too much expense. Loads of vultures waiting there.

MP3 Fan said:

[...] I was originally wanting the 500w geared hub they offer but I decided I cant live without regen braking. Plus less parts to wear makes me feel a little better and I want to assume it'll be quieter.

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Are you sure you've thought this part through? Regen breaking adds cost, complexity, and additional points of failure, while it's only going to boost your efficiency by around 10 percent. And if you are thinking of using *only* regen braking, that's madness -- a failure in your electrical system could leave you without any brakes at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable on any bike that didn't use a mechanical braking system.

On the matter of stealth, a geared hub motor is smaller and less conspicuous, meaning easier to hide. Noise should really not be a concern either way. It's a silent DD vs a nearly silent geared motor.

Ditto on regen. Sounds great on paper but often creates more trouble than it's worth.

Have you discovered pinkbike? When I'm "hunting" for bike candidates, pinkbike's a goto site along with Craigs List to search locally. Although as with anything used, I'm careful to avoid possibly stolen merchandise and scammers.

Ah... are there issues with regen in the controllers or something?

I only want regen as a means to slow down gradually. I got so used to it with the MP3 I once had and I find i really had to bear down on the brakes coming from a stop from 40kmh. I enjoyed just letting go of the throttle and being slowed down in a controlled manner without eating through brake pads. I keep front and rear brakes on my bike of course. I can livve without it but figured it was a bonus if I went to gearless hub to avoid gears and noise.

I will check out that bike site

I found a full suspension bike called a Kona and it has Fox rear shock. The components look legit, not like that garabge suspension found on walkmart bikes. he's asking $400. He says the frame is the oldest part and then he lists all the upgrades.

here is the link if anyone wants to have a peek.. http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-image.html?adId=1003916644&image=0&enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

To each their own but regen is more trouble than it's worth IMO.

That bike looks pretty good to me. Can't make out the model name but maybe search on the forum to see if anybody's used that exact platform before? I would certainly think so - there's a thread someplace of full suspension frames with open triangles?

I'd suggest a MAC and triangle battery from EM3EV unless you're up to playing with fire-breathing RC Lipo? But at minimum go for the EM3EV triangle battery bag. That would make a pretty decent FS eBike, IMO....

EDIT - duh, the model MokoMoko on the kijiji listing but it didn't bring up anything on the forum. However, this search did find some Kona FS projects: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=kona+full+suspension

Back to the bikes, your budget won't fit much more than a wallmart bike.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Titan-Glacier-Dual-Suspension-26-Unisex-All-Terrain-Bike/15734252

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mongoose-Status-2.4-Mountain-Bike/23891018

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mongoose-Status-2.6-Mountain-Bike/23891019

All will have the pogo stick rear shock, but you might be able to add a better shock later. Why those models will be good is they have that rocker arm on the suspension. This 4 bar link type suspension will make a shit shock perform actually pretty good.

well, pretty good for that money. the 2.6 might have slightly better crank, or seat. But to be honest, this level of bike the first thing to do is get a good crank and a much better seat on them. You will retain the cheap o front rim, but that is also easy to upgrade later. Your first real $$ upgrade should be a much better front fork. Amazing how nice a cheap bike can ride with a real fork on it.

MP3 Fan said:

I'm planning on the 9c clone...

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There is no such thing. Whoever started that word combination should be dealt with in the same manner as the originator of the 36 wiring combination spreadsheet. Cloning a 9C would be like cloning a generic PC.

The Kona does look like a good deal. Better than spending 300+ on a mongoose. No offense Dogman. Although people have been using the Genesis from Wallyworld around 150 bucks. That Kona has real susp. especially the way better fork and shock. Do you have hills ? Did not see that mentioned. If so might want a geared hub. Or a slower speed direct drive

Your budget is very low to buy a FS bike. I suggest that you wait the middle of the winter, when the prices are at the lowest. By then you could put aside a little more cash, and you will be able to find a used FS bike of good quality on Pinkbike. DH bikes in the yrs 2000 to 2005, you can find a good rig for cheap in the winter and they are making very good ebikes.

spisska said:

Are you sure you've thought this part through? Regen breaking adds cost, complexity, and additional points of failure

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What is the source for this erroneous info you're spreading? It doesn't cost anything, adds no complexity or additional points of failure. The 2 primary advantages are:
1. Safety- Especially going down hills it allows your mechanical brakes to be fresh and cool and ready for emergency stops at all times. This is even more important with an ebike, because the added mass of the electrical drive system means even more kinetic energy.
2. Reduced maintenance- Brakes go from being one of the biggest maintenance items on your ebike, to requiring almost no maintenance when using regen to do the bulk of the braking work.

Sobering thread regarding consequences of high power and strong regen:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40785&hilit=Twisted+axle

Valid opinion is that regen simply isn't worth the trouble to do it properly. Another valid opinion is that if your brakes need regen to do their job maybe you need better brakes?

Personally, I prefer to coast and use the best brakes I can install.

If you like Regen don't let people sway you otherwise.

John in CR said:

2 primary advantages are:
1. Safety- Especially going down hills it allows your mechanical brakes to be fresh and cool and ready for emergency stops at all times. This is even more important with an ebike, because the added mass of the electrical drive system means even more kinetic energy.
2. Reduced maintenance- Brakes go from being one of the biggest maintenance items on your ebike, to requiring almost no maintenance when using regen to do the bulk of the braking work.

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I personally have enjoyed Regen for several years now and feel that i can not have the same enjoyment from an ebike if it does not have Regen. For those who don't have regen you don't know what you are missing.

wait the middle of the winter, when the prices are at the lowest. By then you could put aside a little more cash, and you will be able to find a used FS bike of good quality on Pinkbike. DH bikes in the yrs 2000 to 2005, you can find a good rig for cheap in the winter and they are making very good ebikes.

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Patience is a virtue but i know for a fact that bikes become cheaper in the winter. It's tough though i understand if this is your only ebike. That is why I have several

John in CR said:

spisska said:

Are you sure you've thought this part through? Regen breaking adds cost, complexity, and additional points of failure

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What is the source for this erroneous info you're spreading?

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Well. For regen braking to work, you need a controller and battery system that can work in both directions, which is more complex than operating in one direction. Switching the flow of electricity creates additional stress on the controller components, meaning a two-way controller is going to cost more.

Not to mention that you now have the rotational force of the axle against the dropouts in *both* directions, which is additional stress which may require additional parts to relieve. I.e. cost.

For points of failure, you now have an electrical system more likely to fail (because it's doing twice the work for longer times), you have a braking system that can kill the electrics entirely (or become locked on or locked off), and additional stress on an already over-stressed part of the frame.

For the relatively small boost in efficiency, it doesn't seem a fair trade.

I would say go for regen if you live in an hilly area with lots of long coasting down hills, if your commute is relatively flat there will be little gain from it.

But that is not my main reason for replying in this thread, in your op you mentioned rear suspension and having the battery hanging over the rear, that would be a concern in my opinion. How are you going to support a rack that can safely carry a battery on a rear suspension frame? A battery hitting the floor will most likely do a lot of damage to it if it is a soft pouch construction and I have not seen a rack or seat post yet I would trust to that job on a rear sus frame. A frame that can accommodate a battery compartment inside the triangle would be much safer as far as weight distribution and centre of gravity goes too.

Your rack would also need to be much higher than normal to accommodate the rear suspension travel and still have tyre clearance. The average down hill bike might have 6-8" of suspension travel.

That is the other point I meant to make earlier. A large hub on back and a large battery and you weigh ? 220 lbs. It really needs the battery weight forward. Either in the triangle or on the front= handlebars ala pelican case.
Also go for regen as long as you lock that motor down well. Regen is all I have for brakes on the back of my FSR but I have 1/2" of steel, custom filed for a tight fit on my rear drops. 4x 1/8" steel plates 8)

Tench said:

Your rack would also need to be much higher than normal to accommodate the rear suspension travel and still have tyre clearance. The average down hill bike might have 6-8" of suspension travel.

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Not if he uses something like this rack. There are a few on the market for dual Suspension Bikes.



and if you need a rear mudguard for a FS bike go somthing like this.

spisska said:

John in CR said:

spisska said:

Are you sure you've thought this part through? Regen breaking adds cost, complexity, and additional points of failure

Click to expand...

What is the source for this erroneous info you're spreading?

Click to expand...

Well. For regen braking to work, you need a controller and battery system that can work in both directions, which is more complex than operating in one direction. Switching the flow of electricity creates additional stress on the controller components, meaning a two-way controller is going to cost more.

Not to mention that you now have the rotational force of the axle against the dropouts in *both* directions, which is additional stress which may require additional parts to relieve. I.e. cost.

For points of failure, you now have an electrical system more likely to fail (because it's doing twice the work for longer times), you have a braking system that can kill the electrics entirely (or become locked on or locked off), and additional stress on an already over-stressed part of the frame.

For the relatively small boost in efficiency, it doesn't seem a fair trade.

Click to expand...

You've obviously not used regen braking, so how can you possibly have an opinion? Of course you need a regen capable controller, but they cost no more than others. Myth1-busted Yes, the axle forces alternating each way does tend to loosen axle nuts, but your motor axle needs to be properly secured regardless of regen and that means thick clamping dropouts or torque arms, which are unaffected by alternating forces. Myth2- plausible only on what I consider inadequate installations, so busted. Stresses on the controller are far less during regen, because the current limits are much lower, so if regen is going to make it fail, an occurrence I've yet to hear of, then it's going to fail on any decent uphill grade. Myth3-busted. Regen is activated by the same thing that cuts power when you brake, a mandatory safety item on any ebike, so if it failed you would have the failure even without regen. The exception would be slip charge regen, and that gets activated when you let off the throttle so nothing additional to fail, and that's actually an extra safety item. Myth4-busted. If you believe your batteries can't handle the intermittent charge rate of regen, simply set the force lower, and I find nice smooth lower current regen preferable and once you get used to the longer distances to start it. Myth5-busted. Like I said before, the energy recovery is just a side benefit of regen braking, and when implemented well there are no downsides, so there's nothing to trade. Myth6-busted

Sure most of the things you brought up should be considered in a build, but using proper settings and securing your motor on the bike properly certainly aren't any kind of detriment at all. This isn't 6 years ago when controllers with regen were rare and cost more, and batteries have advanced sufficiently that weren't not stuck to limiting charge rates to 3 or 4 hours at the fastest. People do seem to get stuck on the energy recovery %, but if that's your focus then 15-20% is pretty easy with the right approach, and batteries are still typically our biggest cost so any range extension is always welcome. Again I maintain that isn't even a primary benefit of regen, much lower maintenance and increased safety are, and you get both even in flat terrain, though completely eliminating brake fade on descents is a big safety improvement unique to hills, though I've had brake fade on flat roads too.

Re gen is fine if your torque arms are up to it. John's definitely are. I need to work on mine to use my regen. It loosens my axle nuts right now. I will use it anyway, when I need to. Good to have a backup to mechanical brakes. My regen is not tied to the brake handles, I get it only if I push a separate button.

My regen is very harsh, too strong. I need to fix that too.

As for the bike, HELL YEAH buy the kona if you can afford it. I just got the silly idea that a piece of shit from walmart was your only option at this point. I just wanted you to know there is a type that works better with the pogo shock than others.

If you do end up building on a walbike, then keep saving and keep hunting for a real bike. You won't regret it, but the hunt may be long and hard. The real problem with the walbike is the thin alloy frames soften up, and you start getting a lot of tail wag. Or the rim brakes just spread the frame, rather than clamp the rim. Expect to wear out a walbike in 2000 miles.

I have close to 10,000 miles on a quality Giant FS frame.

That Kona bike for $400 is sold already Too bad I think it was such a good price for a very nice bike. It would have felt so plush riding it around town and to work and back. The search continues.

I honestly dont think I want a bike without Regen. All the negatives brought up arent really negatives to me. I'm going to have a properly supported motor regardless and the talk about it being another breaking point and harder on the controller makes no sense to me. Never having to touch my brakes till the last second was a real treat and I discovered slowng my bike down from 40-50 kmh was very hard on brake pads. It has nothing to do with the measly amount of energy it might put back in the battery, that I dont care about. I think without regen on my first ebike I would have chewed though brake pads once a week not to mention the force I had to use on the brakes to haul it down from 40-50... It really felt like something would fail if I kept bearing down on them like that so forcefully. It was a $600 KHS mtb sop not cheap garbage and it had dual disk brakes and they certainly were never the best things at their job on that bike. Having the regen allowed me to have a nice controlled slow downs each and every time and I loved it.

As for the rear rack I bought one of those ones that attach below the seat post. It was so flexy and bouncy with that heavy battery I had no idea why GoldenMotor passed it off as an option to carry that heavy thing. I was nothing but a headache working itself loose all the time. I eventualy bought some steel L bars and triangulated them under this thing to half way down the bike frame. After that was done it was so strong it was remarkable. I built some aluminum brakets that ran down the sides to keep the bags from touching the wheel and it worked beyond perfectly. I did the same to a freinds bike I built for him and got the same result.

Well, winter is coming so Ive now decided I will bide my time and wait to get my paws on something with quality suspension like those Kona bikes. If I can find one of those for $400 like that blue one I would be very happy. I think it would make a perfect ebike for me. Buy a nice fat comfy seat and some good street tires and I'd be set. Thanks for the help everyone... it is really appreciated.