Last Minute Ordering Advice

So I finally got paid from a nice freelance job and have the funds to build my first e-bike. I sent an email to the guys at ebikes.ca to see what they would recommend, and got a pretty quick and detailed response from Zev. It has been a while since I have been on here asking questions and researching, and wanted to get some feedback from you helpful e-bikers prior to making my purchase.

The rider: 6'8", 210 lbs, able bodied man.
The bike: Jamis Boss Cruiser 7 spd., Topeak large bag with panniers and locking rack.
The commute: ~12 miles round trip on flat ground. I am in hot and humid Florida, so the less pedaling the better.
The budget: Would like to stay under $1000 to start, but will possibly invest more in the future for better batteries and more voltage.
The need for speed: I want to be able to cruise at 25mph, and maybe increases this in the future.

Here is what Zev recommended for my situation, and detailed in a nicely packaged PDF estimate:

26 inch 408 Front Wheel..~0.73 kph/V (280.00)
36V 20A Pedal First (sensorless) Brushless Controller, for use with
24-48v packs (95.00)
Crystalyte Half Twist Throttle (15.00)
48V 8Ah Rect Geometry 5C NiCad (340.00)
Universal 24-48V NiMH/NiCad charger (65.00)
Canada Post Ground (85.00)

Total: $880.00


The only possible issue I see is the pedal first controller. I will certainly want to start out pedaling for efficiency sake, but the option not to would be nice. Also, I believe this would mean buying a new controller should I want to add a 24V pack in the future, just for the "wheeee" factor. I'd like to thank all of you that responded to my prior inquiries, and appreciate any insight you may have at this time.

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Thanks for the input. Why the preference for a rear motor? And what makes the pedal first more reliable in wet weather?

you may want to consider a geared front hub motor too. i am about to buy an ethinkar geared hub motor and controller from bob mcree, and i want to buy one of the bafang geared hub motor kits with the controller from other bob, knuckles. he has a deal for ES members too. go look in selling & surplus. also the headway cells will get you to lifepo4 the first time, without going through the nicads, for about the same price, but i have some nicads myself.

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dnmun said:

Start immediate brushless controllers rely on motor position sensors that can fail in wet weather.

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Good to know.

I often wonder how many of the rear motor preferred guys ever rode a front hub for any length of time. I REALLY like the front hub, though for big motors the rear is better. It feels funny at first, but if you learn to power on the throttle in corners, the heaviness is replaced by pull which really feels good to me. Geared motor would do you little good in florida, except that they freewheel. So if you used the motor as a sparingly used assist, they are much better then. Your ride won't require a huge exotic battery or a huge motor so your choices are good. You will need 48v to go 25mph, but unless you have a really big front crank, you will find peadling along will be useless past about 15mph. I see nothing wrong with what you have orderd. If you are not happy with it, sell it off used and get faster stuff. I find 25mph plenty, but some get hooked on the speed real fast. I think for fast get a gas scooter, my wifes will do 60mph.

I found this in the Selling & Surplus section.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5828
Dual speed 408/4011 with 72v/20a controller and throttle for $350. This would give me an extra few bucks for my battery, and prevent me from having to buy another controller, should I find the desire to upgrade above 48V. I definitely wouldn't need the 4011 side of this motor here in Florida.

I did a quick search for information on the dual speed 408/4011 and saw mention that they are not as efficient as a single speed. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Would this be something suitable for my needs?

You may not hit 25mph being over 200lbs, but anything over 22mph is real nice. My brother 200+ lbs rode my bike and was a full mile per hour slower then me and I'm in the 150's. Not sure but some big guys in here run the x5.

You'll probably have to run high voltage 72 volts to use a dual speed as its somewhat useless having just 48 volts. Batteries will get expensive. People do claim some loss in speed on dual vs single winding. Probably like 1-2 mph.

There's a guy in here thats running the Jamis Boss crusier with X5 in front and I think he likes it. I forgot what his name was. I'll look.
Here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3171&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Jamis+Boss+cruiser

Yeah, I remember seeing that post before. I have the black Boss too, and took a permanent marker to all the decals and lines to totally black out the bike. I think it will make a great ebike. I think I will probably stick with the 408 and pedal first controller. With all the water here, I think it would be best.

Thanks guys for your last minute input. I'll place my order in the next few days and keep you posted on my build progress, with a photo of the results. One of the first things I want to do is make a video of my commute... ~6 miles, 5 or so on a very pleasant bike path.

Feel free to add anything else... I'll check back before ordering.

You do seem to be torn between speed and cheap. One option not discussed on this thread yet is the Wilderness Energy brushed motor. Its a front hub, that goes between 23-24 mph on the flats at 36v. The stock controller handles 48v no problemo so if you overvolt to 48 you can expect over 25mph on the flats. With a 48 tooth front sprocket and 40 or so volts from lifepo4, i routinely go 27-28 mph peadaling hard.

The only problem is finding one, they are scarce now. But a $600 kit plus a $50 extra battery gets you close to 30 mph for pretty cheap. Another problem with brushed is short range. Hauling ass, about 6-7 miles on 12 ah sla's. But you will make it if you can charge where you are going. Once I got lifepo4, though, range stopped being a problem.

beef_wellington said:

I found this in the Selling & Surplus section.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5828
Dual speed 408/4011 with 72v/20a controller and throttle for $350. This would give me an extra few bucks for my battery, and prevent me from having to buy another controller, should I find the desire to upgrade above 48V. I definitely wouldn't need the 4011 side of this motor here in Florida.

I did a quick search for information on the dual speed 408/4011 and saw mention that they are not as efficient as a single speed. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Would this be something suitable for my needs?

Click to expand...

Not sure who said its not as efficent, but thats just not true.

That dual speed motor is a 4011 with a second set of leads to tap into the first 8 windings to make it a 408 as well. I run a 408/4012 and love it. I have had efficancy as good as 11 Watt hours a mile, no pedaling.

Rear VS front is a matter of personal taste, but generaly rear is better for stealth, traction, and handiling reasons, but loses on balance and fitting issues.

Pedal start leaves you stuck if you should lose a chain, or hurt your back/ankle/knee and can't pedal. I've been stuck for all those reasons, and drove myself home with my instant start controller.
There can be issues with the sensors getting wet and killing the controller, but there are issues with getting an electric hair dryer wet, too. The easy solution is don't get it wet.

But back to efficancy. the 4011 is slower, but accelerates a little better at 48volts, (you'll bearly feel it) It also does so more efficantly. (about 1/3 more efficently) At 72 volts, there is a huge diffrence in acceleration, as well as hill climbing ability. With my 4012/408 combo at 74 volts, I could out accelerate, and leave behind 50cc Vespa style scooters, then slow down, let them pass, and pass them again.

Doing a search of "dual speed", I found the following quotes here: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forum...=4979&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=dual+speed

pwbset wrote:

Iron Yeti wrote: The guys at ebikes.ca say that dual speed motors are in efficient. How does that work out for you?

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Yes they do say that.

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It could just be a percent or two efficiency they are talking about, but just wanted to see if anyone else heard of this.

My concern with starting out with a BD36 kit, is that I will want to upgrade everything immediately. I do have an addictive personality, so that is quite likely. I would rather spend a few more bucks now, and have less to replace later. Also I want to bypass the SLA's altogether.

dogman said:

The easy solution is don't get it wet.

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Not so easy in this suana we call Florida. It's very humid half the year and sometimes rains upside down. I'm going to see if I can park my bike indoors at work, and then it would be less of an issue.

i never said anything about hall sensors getting wet. not sure how you go that quote. i really don't know, but if the hall sensor legs get wet i would expect them to short out and send a bad signal to the controller. but they may not short either if the water doesn't get right to the electrically live parts, which may be sealed in silcon lube and shrink tubing. and now keywin has developed a sensorless additional board for the infineon controller.

i would not want pedal first either, or the dual speed, bill bates finally convinced me on that. but i don't have the big need for speed, i am concerned about cogging on DD motor too without power, and expect to get by on a meager coulomb budget too. that was why i was thinking geared front hub, 48V30A is not too meager, but that's where i expect to be, and the bafang seemed like it would peak out in 20" wheel for me at about 26mph, actionbent recumbent, to be built. is that a reasonable estimate?

beef_wellington said:

Dual speed 408/4011 with 72v/20a controller and throttle for $350.

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Even if the dualie is a little less efficient that's really, really a hard price to beat. Think about how much extra battery you could get for that! Even a mediocre motor will perform better with a beefier/more powerful battery. I've been seriously considering that deal for my lovely lady's bike, but it would mean not paying a bill or two this month. :wink:

dnmum, actually that quote was from drunkskunk in reference to the pedal first controller...

There can be issues with the sensors getting wet and killing the controller, but there are issues with getting an electric hair dryer wet, too. The easy solution is don't get it wet.

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I messed something up there, as it was not dogman's quote.

I am interested in what you have heard against the dual speed. I tried to search to get more info on these, but it seems as though they have not been discussed in length in any of the results that I have found.

i talked to bill bates about them, he had a 408/4011 on his WAW velomobile. he said he never used the 4011, just left it wired up as 408. justin and others have talked about how you get the same power from either one, but i haven't run a C'lyte motor myself so i should not talk through my hat. my biggest concern would be with the cogging of the hub, which could reduce the coasting, or just make it harder to pedal without power, from what i understand. i am also more interested in the geared motor because the motor can then spin up to the most efficient range, so more miles per coulomb. i think it would be neat to try everything too, not just oatnet's C'lyte. electricrider.com has C'lytes too, but a lot of people are very loyal to renaissance cycles, because of justin's reputation for honesty and reliability, and the ebikes.ca simulator which makes you feel great to just plug in 72V of lithium on a 5303, and see 50mph numbers come up on the simulator. i think only lowell has gone that fast, actually faster (57mph) but i think he has 96 volts.

think about pedal first before you commit.

dnmun said:

think about pedal first before you commit.

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Dunno about that. I can think of at least 3-4 occasions where pedal first has saved myself from some embarrassing situations involving me testing things in my garage, but even more importantly neighborhood kids interested in my ebike. "Hey!? What's this twisty handle bar thing do?!?" Is it really that hard to get up to 5mph before hitting the throttle? C'mon. Even on those arduous 12-15% grade starts I'd still rather take a pedal first any day if only because I could care less about those pesky little weather sensitive hall sensors.

.02

Just thought I would add some info from Justin regarding the 408/4011 Dual Speed. I followed up in my initial email to ebikes.ca and threw in a couple of questions about the dual speed motor.

...it reduces both the performance and efficiency. A regular
single speed 408 has all the winding slot filled with copper that is
conducing. In your 408, a thinner gauge wire needs to be used to
accommodate 11 turns, so you will have a have higher winding
resistance, and hence more heat dissipation, lower speed under load,
and lower efficiency than you would get with a single speed 408.

Justin

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...and my check cleared today (yay!). I emailed Ping to check his 48V pricing before buying everything from ebikes.ca. I think I am going with Zev's original recommendations, except upgrade to the 72V pedal first controller. Thus an upgrade will only require extra battery pack & charger. Thanks again for everyone's input.

Drunkskunk said:

beef_wellington said:

I found this in the Selling & Surplus section.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5828
Dual speed 408/4011 with 72v/20a controller and throttle for $350. This would give me an extra few bucks for my battery, and prevent me from having to buy another controller, should I find the desire to upgrade above 48V. I definitely wouldn't need the 4011 side of this motor here in Florida.

I did a quick search for information on the dual speed 408/4011 and saw mention that they are not as efficient as a single speed. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Would this be something suitable for my needs?

Click to expand...

Not sure who said its not as efficent, but thats just not true.

That dual speed motor is a 4011 with a second set of leads to tap into the first 8 windings to make it a 408 as well. I run a 408/4012 and love it. I have had efficancy as good as 11 Watt hours a mile, no pedaling.

Click to expand...

And this was going downhill?

I could swear my 407 never went below 15WH/mile at 24 volts(~13 mph cruising speed), and that included rather large downhill sections. :wink:

Drunkskunk said:

Pedal start leaves you stuck if you should lose a chain, or hurt your back/ankle/knee and can't pedal. I've been stuck for all those reasons, and drove myself home with my instant start controller.

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I actually test myself to see if I can "kick off" the ground(like riding a scooter) in one stroke to get the pedal-start controller initiated. With a slight-downhill, it's possible, but it seems like it takes 2 kicks off the ground for flat-land. Hardly impossible if you should lose a chain.

If you hurt your X, you wouldn't be able to use a regular bicycle regardless. If you should have one-leg available(let's hope you do: How else are you going to get from the bicycle to your house's front door?), then kicking is not impossible in the very rare event that you should have to. If you have both legs messed up, then I think you're going to have more troubles than simply not initiating by pedaling and I think you should seek immediate medical attention at that point.