First ebike

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Origon   10 µW

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First ebike

Post by Origon » Oct 18 2014 7:22pm

Hi, I'm building my first ebike (or at least planning to right now) and wanted some advice. After reading the forum, I'm still a bit unsure on some things.

I haven't owned a bike in a while, but I do run so I'm not in terrible shape. Roughly 6'4" ~200lbs with gear / bag. Live in Ontario, Canada, bit north of Toronto.

My main route atm would be this (same route in both pics, diff directions)
Image
Image
Edit: y is meters, x is km

I'm not entirely sure what type of motor I'd need to manage these hills (not sure if they count as "steep" or what). Right now I'm planning for a hybrid bike (no specific one in mind), as the entire route is paved road. While the main reason for the bike is commuting, I would like to use it for leisure / exercise as well (although off-road trails are not likely). If the hills count as steep and need a lot of power to get up, I was considering the Bafang BBS02 500W (or 750 with a switch to toggle down for 500W / speed for legal reasons) or a MAC rear wheel if the hills don't need the extra power. Also been looking at Falco systems as people have been saying they're more powerful for hub motors, but not an easy decision.

While atm this route isn't flat, I will be moving elsewhere (with either a not-steeper, or flatter route) within a year. With mid-drives being less efficient on flat road, I was wondering if one was really necessary for this. I will be pedaling as well, and have no problems about going a bit slower up the hills if need be. Planned to install disc brakes as well.

As for the controller / battery, here I'm a lot more lost. I'm (hoping) to get 70-80km / charge. Budget is $1500-$2000 CAD, but is somewhat flexible considering this is meant to be a commuting vehicle. I'm technical / handy enough to build from components, so a full kit isn't necessary, but would simplify things if price isn't a huge difference. Any feedback would be appreciated. Please let me know if I missed anything.
Last edited by Origon on Oct 18 2014 9:08pm, edited 2 times in total.

Johnny_Z   10 mW

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Re: First ebike

Post by Johnny_Z » Oct 18 2014 8:31pm

Just an unrelated question-where'd you get those images?

Origon   10 µW

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Re: First ebike

Post by Origon » Oct 18 2014 8:35pm

http://cycleroute.org/ found someone else on the forum using that, works quite well

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: First ebike

Post by dogman dan » Oct 19 2014 6:20am

7% is definitely steep, if you are just pedaling. But any 36v hub motor with 20 amps controller will get up them. A 48v kit with 20 amps will get up them with little effort from you. A Mac would be a good choice, or the Ezee from Grin. Anything like that.



But they are a bit steep for a 250w kit, for sure.

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Re: First ebike

Post by Origon » Oct 19 2014 5:58pm

After more research, I'm leaning towards the upgrade MAC kit from em3ev with the 8T MAC mounted on the 26" DM24 (either that or the DX32) and the 50V 24.8Ah 29E triangle battery pack. The other battery option, ping's 48v 30Ah, costs quite a bit more and doesn't fit in the frame triangle as far as I can tell.

Upgrade Mac Kit with 50V High Power Battery (up to 50kmh/30mph)
- Battery Type 50V 24.8Ah 29E Triangle, 5A Charger
- Max Speed ~32km/h (20mph) - choosing the 8T option here, or separate parts instead of kit if not possible
- Controller Type 40A 12 Fet (36-52V, IRFB3077)
- Front/Rear Motor Rear
- Wheel Type 26" Alex DM24 Disc
- Spoke Type Sapim Upgrade (Silver)
- Throttle Type Thumb Throttle
- Ebrakes HWBS Sensor (1pc)
- Disc Spacer 1pc 2.5mm Disc Spacer
- Torque Arm Rear Rev4 (1pc)
- Freewheel 7sp DNP (11T)
- Display V3 CA-DPS

From what I've gathered, the MAC 8T should be able to handle my hills just fine.
The difference between the two battery packs doesn't seem to be huge (slight WattHours difference, 1240 vs 1440 for a few hundred bucks difference in price and reduced weight of the LiFePo4 battery). Did I miss something else between the batteries (any other reason to grab the higher capacity LiFePo4 if the range on the 50V 24.8Ah is enough?). With that battery in mind, the 9Fet 30A controller seems to be the bare minimum, with the 12Fet 40A being recommended. Is this right / should I stick with the 40A 12Fet? I'm unlikely to upgrade the motor much if at all, considering the 500W legal limit, but I might splurge for an even larger battery (one of ping's 60V) sometime down the road. I'm checking to see if their kit-with-battery can be selected as 6T/8T/10T etc instead of max-speed (no clue what max-speed option would correspond to which windings setup, if they can even be related like that). My thoughts on the DM24 / DX32 is I plan to fit wider tires for better traction (wet + hills + not perfect road), something like 2.15" or 2.35" big apples (or a rough equivalent). Would the DX32 rims make more sense, or wouldn't make a huge difference? 26" for ebikes seems to be the standard, and with the fairly rough roads in some areas around me, 700c would seem a lot more fragile / less reliable.

Since I don't have a bike for this kit yet, I'm still deciding between a mountain bike (easy to find, solid frame, etc) or a hybrid (can't seem to find any 26" hybrids, all seem to be 700c). The only real criteria for me is price (which is solved by a fairly beginner bike, no need for 'the best' in a first kit), fit (62" frame height as far as I've been able to figure out, 6'4" with 34" inseam tells me roughly 20" frame for a MTB or 60cm for a road / hybrid), and disc brakes (rain + hills = not fun). Thoughts on this, or a recommendation for a good 'beginner' bike (have biked before, run regularly, just haven't owned a bike in the past 6yrs or so) for use with this kit? Also, any problems with the selections for the kit itself?

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Re: First ebike

Post by BikeFanatic » Oct 19 2014 9:21pm

I have that 12 get 40 amp controller, it is very powerful. Make sure you get a 3 speed switch so you can limited the throttle or power.
I am not too familiar with the MAC motors but I do believe that 8t is a very fast wind and you may reach 30 or more MPH.
Hopefully some one else will chime in about your motor.
:

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: First ebike

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 20 2014 5:32pm

10t and 30amp controller. Get an older comoly frame, stronger frame as steel. Rear motor. at least a 21in. frame. Just take your time as a large frame willl show up.

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Re: First ebike

Post by arkmundi » Oct 20 2014 5:46pm

Origon wrote:After more research, I'm leaning towards the upgrade MAC kit from em3ev with the 8T MAC mounted on the 26" DM24 (either that or the DX32) and the 50V 24.8Ah 29E triangle battery pack. The other battery option, ping's 48v 30Ah, costs quite a bit more and doesn't fit in the frame triangle as far as I can tell. From what I've gathered, the MAC 8T should be able to handle my hills just fine.
My exact choice for Ross build (see below), excepting the 10T. A good choice from a good vendor. I'd stick with your plan.
The difference between the two battery packs doesn't seem to be huge (slight WattHours difference, 1240 vs 1440 for a few hundred bucks difference in price and reduced weight of the LiFePo4 battery). Did I miss something else between the batteries (any other reason to grab the higher capacity LiFePo4 if the range on the 50V 24.8Ah is enough?). With that battery in mind, the 9Fet 30A controller seems to be the bare minimum, with the 12Fet 40A being recommended. Is this right / should I stick with the 40A 12Fet? I'm unlikely to upgrade the motor much if at all, considering the 500W legal limit, but I might splurge for an even larger battery (one of ping's 60V) sometime down the road. I'm checking to see if their kit-with-battery can be selected as 6T/8T/10T etc instead of max-speed (no clue what max-speed option would correspond to which windings setup, if they can even be related like that).
Yes, get the 12Fet 40A controller. I'd stick with EM3ev for everything, the single vendor solution. Invest in the best battery you can - its the weak link in the eBike equation and you'll want the best battery you can afford.
My thoughts on the DM24 / DX32 is I plan to fit wider tires for better traction (wet + hills + not perfect road), something like 2.15" or 2.35" big apples (or a rough equivalent). Would the DX32 rims make more sense, or wouldn't make a huge difference? 26" for ebikes seems to be the standard, and with the fairly rough roads in some areas around me, 700c would seem a lot more fragile / less reliable.
The DX32 has twice the metal/strength as the DM24. Given your weight + the bike and battery, the better rim. Put 2.3 to 2.5 tires on it, what you'll frame will take.
Since I don't have a bike for this kit yet, I'm still deciding between a mountain bike (easy to find, solid frame, etc) or a hybrid (can't seem to find any 26" hybrids, all seem to be 700c). The only real criteria for me is price (which is solved by a fairly beginner bike, no need for 'the best' in a first kit), fit (62" frame height as far as I've been able to figure out, 6'4" with 34" inseam tells me roughly 20" frame for a MTB or 60cm for a road / hybrid), and disc brakes (rain + hills = not fun). Thoughts on this, or a recommendation for a good 'beginner' bike (have biked before, run regularly, just haven't owned a bike in the past 6yrs or so) for use with this kit? Also, any problems with the selections for the kit itself?
There are lots of good bikes available. New or used. Plenty of choice at a great price. You'll want the gearing, so 21 or 24 speed. Mountain or hybrid. Get one with shocks. With you and the hills, you want torque and the best way to achieve that is with a smaller wheel. A 26" to 20" wheels work great.

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Re: First ebike

Post by Raged » Oct 20 2014 7:19pm

Check my build thread and some of the test videos if you have time. I went with a MAC 10T with a 12FET 40A controller and LIPO batteries fitted to a 29er MTB. I spent about $2k all up including bike (new good bike with hydraulic brakes).

The MAC 10T will do 30mph at 14S Lipo (52-58V) and climb 10% hills like a champ. Even on a 29er (700c wheel with fat tires). If you get a hybrid city bike, make sure the dropout widths are wide enough for fat tires. The weight of the hub is heavy on the rear wheel, so a fatter tire will help smooth out the roughness. Suspension with lockout fork is also good for commuting.

The thing to note is that at 30mph, you're basically ghost pedalling with a 44t front and 11t rear. Sure you're pedalling, but you're not doing that much. You sorta need a 50 or 52t upgrade for the extra push. With a faster 8T wind, you're going to have to work a bit more at the start and after you pick up speed, you can sit and cruise. I have commuting stop/start traffic, so getaway speed was more important for me (hence the 10T).
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: First ebike

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 21 2014 12:07am

Some older only have room for a 2.00 tire and with comoly you can take a hammer to the frame to fit a 48t and a 11t to peddle at 29mph.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: First ebike

Post by dogman dan » Oct 21 2014 6:39am

10t will be plenty of speed at 48v. And more efficient in general, particularly on every stop and start.

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: First ebike

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 21 2014 11:26am

Em3ev controller plug for a C.A. You should look at http://www.ebikes.ca as he is are father and in Canada. Highest quality. Local shipping and part support.

Origon   10 µW

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Re: First ebike

Post by Origon » Oct 26 2014 12:08pm

My original thought for the 8T was based off this thread, but at 48V it seems like the 10T is the clear winner especially considering that 30mph is plenty fast for it not be clearly visible as over the legal limits. That's also the thread where I found the 2000W for ~30min max on the MAC motors, which gave me my 12fet 40A at 50V (for absolutely max, at no more than 30mins).

arkmundi, I saw your Ross build thread, it's actually where I thought of just going for a full kit from em3ev. Will definitely be following your progress with that.

As for the battery, I'm still looking into other options. While the 50V 24.8aH option offered is a good option, I'm looking into other battery options as well as building my own (simple enough work that I've done before) for a larger capacity (possibly lower cost? didn't even look at that). Is the triangle mounting better than a rear-rack pannier style? I'm wondering if the large triangle pack might be a possible issue, with a lot of MTBs having smaller center triangles (would that large triangle pack even fit?). For balance issues I'm assuming the triangle is better, assuming the fit isn't an issue.

As for disc brakes. I'm assuming a HWBS only works with cable disc brakes, not hydraulic right? If so, what's an alternative to ebrakes for a hydralic disc setup (is this possible with hydraulic disc brakes?)

Good to hear that the DX32 won't be overkill either. The roads around here aren't always in the best shape, so I'd much prefer a more comfy ride on a fatter tire, especially considering the added weight on the bike and the extra speed.

Regarding ebikes.ca, while I realize it's a more local canadian option, their batteries are really light for the commutes I need this bike for. The path shown in my first post was the worst part of the commute, there's then a bus/train trip followed by another 4-5km one way (although along fairly flat road). If I can manage a 48v 30/40Ah pack I'd be able to replace the entire trip with the ebike. The other reason being that as far as I can tell, a MAC (at relative prices, and ~500W) will offer the most torque for the voltage, and given my hilly commute I want all the torque I can get.

My next question is this, for the bike to be legal, besides limiting one of the throttle settings to ~60% for 20mph I need
has one of the following safety features,
an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains 3 km/hr.
I was wondering how I'd accommodate one of these features. Do the battery packs from em3ev come with an on/off switch that fits these criteria / does the MAC motor not engage at <3km/hr. Or how else would I be able to take care of this requirement? On that note, given some on/off switch somewhere, would there be a difference from a cycling perspective from pedaling with the motor in 'off' vs 'on' with the throttle set to 0% power (added resistance or anything?). The on/off switch on the battery pack / elsewhere would mean something like 15% / 100% / 60% assist settings being a possibility.

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biohazardman   100 kW

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Re: First ebike

Post by biohazardman » Oct 26 2014 1:20pm

Origon wrote:My original thought for the 8T was based off this thread, but at 48V it seems like the 10T is the clear winner especially considering that 30mph is plenty fast for it not be clearly visible as over the legal limits. That's also the thread where I found the 2000W for ~30min max on the MAC motors, which gave me my 12fet 40A at 50V (for absolutely max, at no more than 30mins).

arkmundi, I saw your Ross build thread, it's actually where I thought of just going for a full kit from em3ev. Will definitely be following your progress with that.

As for the battery, I'm still looking into other options. While the 50V 24.8aH option offered is a good option, I'm looking into other battery options as well as building my own (simple enough work that I've done before) for a larger capacity (possibly lower cost? didn't even look at that). Is the triangle mounting better than a rear-rack pannier style? I'm wondering if the large triangle pack might be a possible issue, with a lot of MTBs having smaller center triangles (would that large triangle pack even fit?). For balance issues I'm assuming the triangle is better, assuming the fit isn't an issue.

As for disc brakes. I'm assuming a HWBS only works with cable disc brakes, not hydraulic right? If so, what's an alternative to ebrakes for a hydralic disc setup (is this possible with hydraulic disc brakes?)

Good to hear that the DX32 won't be overkill either. The roads around here aren't always in the best shape, so I'd much prefer a more comfy ride on a fatter tire, especially considering the added weight on the bike and the extra speed.

Regarding ebikes.ca, while I realize it's a more local canadian option, their batteries are really light for the commutes I need this bike for. The path shown in my first post was the worst part of the commute, there's then a bus/train trip followed by another 4-5km one way (although along fairly flat road). If I can manage a 48v 30/40Ah pack I'd be able to replace the entire trip with the ebike. The other reason being that as far as I can tell, a MAC (at relative prices, and ~500W) will offer the most torque for the voltage, and given my hilly commute I want all the torque I can get.

My next question is this, for the bike to be legal, besides limiting one of the throttle settings to ~60% for 20mph I need
has one of the following safety features,
an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains 3 km/hr.
I was wondering how I'd accommodate one of these features. Do the battery packs from em3ev come with an on/off switch that fits these criteria / does the MAC motor not engage at <3km/hr. Or how else would I be able to take care of this requirement? On that note, given some on/off switch somewhere, would there be a difference from a cycling perspective from pedaling with the motor in 'off' vs 'on' with the throttle set to 0% power (added resistance or anything?). The on/off switch on the battery pack / elsewhere would mean something like 15% / 100% / 60% assist settings being a possibility.
I run a BMC V2S rear motor on 66V of A123 26650 batts with a 40 amp controller. This is all on a Giant Trance3 full suspension aluminum frame. I have 10K+ miles on it now with few problems. I also have a V2T which would be the equivalent of the 10T mac.
If you go 48V and use a 24 inch rear wheel you will be very close to your 20MPH limit only getting to the max of 22MPH if you pump the tires to max and tuck in tight for better aero. A smaller wheel will also increase your torque for the hills and treat your motor a bit kinder. This is good for answering many questions about which parts to use on your build. http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
Several of us here use this http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 63#p470995 switch for a battery disconnect and have very good luck with it. This should keep you legal if you can reach it from the seat. The only failure I am aware with it was someone running it with duel motors so a bit more amperage than the rest of us.
The only upgrade I made to my brakes, which are stock cable disks, was to put on larger 203mm rotors. You will not need to do more unless you are pulling excessive loads at which time hydraulics might be helpful.
IF you can charge at werq you can use a smaller battery and have less weight to haul around I only carry 4.6ah with me, gets me 10 to 13 miles @ 20 MPH with little pedaling, unless I am going long distances then I carry 16ah.
Good luck on your build.
Build it like your life depends on it. Cuz it does.
Golden Motor Schwinn first build http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=279.0
Giant BMC build http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=390
Short ride vids http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p321703

Origon   10 µW

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Re: First ebike

Post by Origon » Oct 26 2014 1:44pm

I've seen that simulator several times now. Is it the BMC_V2 Torq that's the equivalent of the 10T MAC? Guess I'll need to model some battery options with that and see what the results are, assuming an equivalent to the motor exists in the simulator.

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biohazardman   100 kW

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Re: First ebike

Post by biohazardman » Oct 27 2014 12:26pm

I beleive that 10T mac is the less expensive alternative to the V2T BMC and from what I have seen here on the forum should be close in performance.
Build it like your life depends on it. Cuz it does.
Golden Motor Schwinn first build http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=279.0
Giant BMC build http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=390
Short ride vids http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p321703

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Re: First ebike

Post by Raged » Oct 27 2014 8:26pm

Origon wrote:My original thought for the 8T was based off this thread, but at 48V it seems like the 10T is the clear winner especially considering that 30mph is plenty fast for it not be clearly visible as over the legal limits. That's also the thread where I found the 2000W for ~30min max on the MAC motors, which gave me my 12fet 40A at 50V (for absolutely max, at no more than 30mins).

arkmundi, I saw your Ross build thread, it's actually where I thought of just going for a full kit from em3ev. Will definitely be following your progress with that.

As for the battery, I'm still looking into other options. While the 50V 24.8aH option offered is a good option, I'm looking into other battery options as well as building my own (simple enough work that I've done before) for a larger capacity (possibly lower cost? didn't even look at that). Is the triangle mounting better than a rear-rack pannier style? I'm wondering if the large triangle pack might be a possible issue, with a lot of MTBs having smaller center triangles (would that large triangle pack even fit?). For balance issues I'm assuming the triangle is better, assuming the fit isn't an issue.

As for disc brakes. I'm assuming a HWBS only works with cable disc brakes, not hydraulic right? If so, what's an alternative to ebrakes for a hydralic disc setup (is this possible with hydraulic disc brakes?)

Good to hear that the DX32 won't be overkill either. The roads around here aren't always in the best shape, so I'd much prefer a more comfy ride on a fatter tire, especially considering the added weight on the bike and the extra speed.

Regarding ebikes.ca, while I realize it's a more local canadian option, their batteries are really light for the commutes I need this bike for. The path shown in my first post was the worst part of the commute, there's then a bus/train trip followed by another 4-5km one way (although along fairly flat road). If I can manage a 48v 30/40Ah pack I'd be able to replace the entire trip with the ebike. The other reason being that as far as I can tell, a MAC (at relative prices, and ~500W) will offer the most torque for the voltage, and given my hilly commute I want all the torque I can get.

My next question is this, for the bike to be legal, besides limiting one of the throttle settings to ~60% for 20mph I need
has one of the following safety features,
an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains 3 km/hr.
I was wondering how I'd accommodate one of these features. Do the battery packs from em3ev come with an on/off switch that fits these criteria / does the MAC motor not engage at <3km/hr. Or how else would I be able to take care of this requirement? On that note, given some on/off switch somewhere, would there be a difference from a cycling perspective from pedaling with the motor in 'off' vs 'on' with the throttle set to 0% power (added resistance or anything?). The on/off switch on the battery pack / elsewhere would mean something like 15% / 100% / 60% assist settings being a possibility.
Battery Triangle rack is 100000x better than it sitting on the rear. I only have 17Ah of 14S lipo (about 6kg) and when it was on the back wheel the bike kept on trying to kill me by lifting up the front wheel. You want to move it to the middle triangle or front for handling/weight distribution. I chose lipo specifically because its modular and you can move stuff around to suit the frame. It would suck to buy a pre-built kit and then realise it doesnt fit. I'm on version 6 of my battery layout (small front tube panniers to hold 11Ah of extremely stealth commuting) and an optional middle bag for extra capacity if I'm doing over 50km in a day. I also have the distinct disadvantage of being short and have a 16" bike frame which makes the middle triangle even smaller.. Most bikes in 16" frame only come with 1 water bottle holder so less mounting points as well.

I dont have the HWBS but you can just wire up the ebrake line to a reed switch (similar to the speed sensor on a cheap bike computer) with a magnet. You get these with the cheapo $5 bike computers. This attaches to your brake lever so is independent of what brake system you use.

As for the 3km/h sensor and all that jazz... Stay under the radar and make your bike look normal and you wont get harassed. With the MAC motor, as it's geared (I dont have pedal assist) your thumb throttle is the control and as it freewheels like a normal bike, it just rides like one. Your chances of being pulled over are slim. If you wanted to cut the balls out of the em3ev kit to be legal, they come with a 3 speed switch. I used the lower settings once..... ONCE...

Again, I do suggest a 29er or hybrid commuter for the 700c rims. The rolling diameter for high speed cruising is what you want for long trips.
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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