Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 01 2021 2:17am

thundercamel wrote:
Feb 28 2021 11:59pm
Torque at the freewheel thread would be the same given the same gearing ratio,
But it isn't torque that breaks hub motor sidecovers; it's the bending moment of the chain pulling on the freewheel or cassette. Steady torque is a static force, but chain tension cycles around with the wheel's rotation, so there are many more cycles of loading and unloading to promote metal fatigue. For this reason, using larger sprockets to reduce chain tension helps diminish the chance of breakage.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by thundercamel » Mar 01 2021 9:15am

I didn't think Chalo would make such an oversight (about the torque at the threads vs the gear ratio/chain tension) :) I could see the cycles of impulse causing metal fatigue. So you're saying each tooth on the sprocket engaging and disengaging with the chain causes pulses in the amount of torque transmitted to the wheel?
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 01 2021 11:12am

thundercamel wrote:
Mar 01 2021 9:15am
I didn't think Chalo would make such an oversight (about the torque at the threads vs the gear ratio/chain tension) :) I could see the cycles of impulse causing metal fatigue. So you're saying each tooth on the sprocket engaging and disengaging with the chain causes pulses in the amount of torque transmitted to the wheel?
No, it's the chain always pulling forward while the wheel revolves. In effect, that's the same as screwing a tube onto a stationary freewheel thread and wagging the tube's free end around in a circle. The bending moment is a function of chain tension and the distance outboard of the sidecover surface where it's applied. The number of load cycles is the number of wheel rotations that occur while the chain is taut.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Mar 02 2021 12:36am

Chalo wrote:
Feb 28 2021 8:54pm

DNP freewheels are pretty junky and failure prone.
Tell me about it. I've destroyed two of them! The big gear in each of them bent over like a toothless Texas truck stop lot lizard who just got into the passenger seat of a V12 Peterbilt with the methed-out operator in the driver seat, happy as can be.

That said, it was two of them in about 35,000 miles of use between them plus a free used Shimano 32-14T freewheel given to me from a local bike shop(still usable, unlike the DNPs), but still... one of the DNPs went out within the first 4,000 miles of use while I was spinning up a 20% grade at 8 mph in a 22T front chainring, before ever installing a motor.
There's another concern when setting up gearing on a rear hub motor, which is the tendency of the freewheel thread to break out of the sidecover when pedaled too exuberantly. There best way to mitigate this problem is to use the largest sprockets that will give you the ratios you want, thereby lowering the chain's operating tension. So rather than using an 11 rear sprocket to get a tall gear, you'd bump up the chainring size. 66/14 is the same ratio as 52/11, but 79% as much chain tension for the same power.
Duly noted. I like the 11T in the rear because I need the widest possible gearing range I can get, and currently don't have the funds to justify a Schlumpf drive up front yet. There's also the issue of the KMX frame not being compatible with a small rear gear larger than 11T, forcing me to lock out last gear if it is larger than 11T due to chain clearance issues. I don't find myself using the 11T gear more than about 5% of the time since I cruise around 30-35 mph, but sometimes when I want to go downhill at 45+ mph, the 11T comes in very handy. I can do 46 mph on flat ground, also in the 11T, using my current 46.8V 10.5AH 1500W pack. Once I upgrade to a 72V 21AH 5 kW pack, that top speed could improve to 60+ mph even though I'd be pedaling like a madman to do it as a 52/11T combo is at my sustainable-for-more-than-a-few-seconds cadence limit around 55 mph with a 26x1.5" rear tire.

I tried a countersunk bolt for the seat stay mounting post with a freewheel that had a 14T small gear and it did not solve the issue, as I needed an extra 0.2-0.3mm or so of side clearance still when using a freewheel with a 14T rear gear. Going to an 9-speed chain may be just enough to clear it, but that is an expense I am not currently prepared or willing to make when I have a perfectly fine 7-speed chain with no indication of stretch yet at about 4,500 miles, cheap as a 9-speed chain may still be(I've been living on the financial margin as it is, and have been keeping this thing running for dirt cheap doing 30-40 miles a day, although if I get this new engineering job, my mom won't lose her house and I won't be looking at the possibility of having to live out of this thing in the near future either).

I might go to a 6-speed freewheel setup in the future to free up some axle space on the next motor I order, as there are 6-speed grip shifters available, and I can find high-quality 6-speed freewheels that are 34-14T and 30-13T. With a Schlumpf drive, I could have a more than adequate gearing range for my needs, while deleting the 7th gear should free up enough space for the chain not to get snagged on the seat stay mounting bolt.
Custom electric velomobile, 1500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by electric_nz » Mar 17 2021 11:09pm

How do you specify a winding? For example their website states that for a 26” wheel the default max speed is 37.5mph with other speeds: 42mph or 30mph, 25mph, 20mph, 15mph.

Which one of those is 6T with maximum copper fill?

Thanks

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Mar 18 2021 6:33am

by electric_nz » Mar 17 2021 11:09pm

How do you specify a winding? For example their website states that for a 26” wheel the default max speed is 37.5mph with other speeds: 42mph or 30mph, 25mph, 20mph, 15mph.

Which one of those is 6T with maximum copper fill?

Thanks
Let's start with maximum copper fill. Has been a few discussions about that here, what I remember is the 5T 1500W leafmotor had maximum copper fill or the most copper.

You can order the wind you want. I did and they sent the correct one. Have not checked the website in a few months, leafbikes had you state the speed and they would send the wind that was closest to that speed at 48V. This is the best way to set up your ride.

The default Motor was a 4T. To figure it out yourself, Grin has a 5T modeled in the motor simulator. Change the Kv in the simulator until the desired speed. The simulator will be using loaded Kv which will be lower. My 7T is just over a one Kv lower loaded.

The numbers are "Strands" "Turns" "Unloaded rpm" "Rotations per Volt"
16 * 4T 650RPM 13.54
13 * 5T 550RPM 11.45
11 * 6T 450RPM 09.37
09 * 7T 350RPM 07.29 rpm V Loaded 6.33 Kv - 397.4 rpm
08 * 8T 250RPM 05.208
07 * 9T 150RPM 03.125

I would match with want you need I did, it has worked so well can't hardly bring myself to change it. I will this summer want to try a 5T but don't think it will be as good for me as the 7T has been.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 18 2021 10:43am

ZeroEm wrote:
Mar 18 2021 6:33am
Let's start with maximum copper fill. Has been a few discussions about that here, what I remember is the 5T 1500W leafmotor had maximum copper fill or the most copper.
[...]
The numbers are "Strands" "Turns" "Unloaded rpm" "Rotations per Volt"
16 * 4T 650RPM 13.54
13 * 5T 550RPM 11.45
11 * 6T 450RPM 09.37
09 * 7T 350RPM 07.29 rpm V Loaded 6.33 Kv - 397.4 rpm
08 * 8T 250RPM 05.208
07 * 9T 150RPM 03.125
16 * 4T = 64
13 * 5T = 65
11 * 6T = 66
9 * 7T = 63
8 * 8T = 64
7 * 9T = 63
6 * 10T = 60
6 * 11T = 66

6T and 11T have the most copper fill.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Mar 18 2021 5:39pm

I have been wanting a 6T, will try to Order one this year.

Thx Chalo.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 20 2021 12:16am

I'd go for 11T (instead of my 5 or 6T Leaf 1.5kw) for 18mph but I am going to have to download a speedometer app and actually see how fast I ride on a regular basis.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Bullfrog » Mar 21 2021 7:32pm

Just a couple comments from the peanut gallery :lol: ....

A. Best way to keep from cracking the side cover on a motor is to NOT pedal :wink: , duhhhhh. Sorry I couldn't help it :wink: .

B. If you want to go faster choose a higher Kv motor (lower turn count) as opposed to a larger diameter wheel...you will have lower losses in the motor...a tid bit I recently learned from Justin while watching one of his presentations. In other words decide how fast you want to go and choose the motor winding that will get you that speed with the wheel size you need and the voltage you want to run. Then determine how much amperage you need and select your controller and then pick your battery and ensure it can supply at least as much as amperage as your controller...and if your battery can supply more amperage than your controller then that is a good thing because your battery will last a lot longer. If at any point one of your components can't keep up with the others...iterate on your design until everything works together :thumb: . The Grin Tech Motor Simulator is an excellent tool to help you make decisions.

A lot of you already know everything I stated above...it is mainly for the newbies :D .

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 21 2021 7:36pm

You will heat up the motor faster by choosing a larger diameter wheel.

edit
A larger diameter tire also uses up more battery power.
Last edited by markz on Mar 22 2021 4:11pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Bullfrog » Mar 22 2021 6:11am

markz wrote:
Mar 21 2021 7:36pm
You will heat up the motor faster by choosing a larger diameter wheel.
Exactly...it effectively changes the overall gearing to higher/taller. Small changes i.e. going from a 2.6" to a 2.8" wide tire for example have a very minor effect on both top speed and motor temp but bigger changes like going from a 24" to a 29" could mean over heating problems.

With my 12T MAC, I have tried everything from a 20 x 2.6” (539 mm OD) to a 29x3.0" tire/wheel (769mm OD). You can really tell the difference in the acceleration AND the top speed as well as the steady state motor temperature...plus the difference in the way the bike handles due to the changes in the head tube angle :D .

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 22 2021 7:42pm

Larger diameter wheels means you get up to speed slower (due to less gearing torque) but reach a higher top speed.
Also uses up more battery power per distance travelled. Which I edited my last post to include this.
Heats up the motor faster.


Smaller diameter wheels means you get up to speed faster (more torque) but reach a slower top speed.
Uses less power because your going slower.
Motor runs cooler.

Now, you can start playing games or what I like to call the teeter totter affect.
Go to a smaller wheel and
A) buy a new motor with a lower turn count, meaning more rpm/volt
B) get a controller that can handle more voltage for faster speed
C) get new battery to supply that voltage
*You might get lucky and your controller may have 60V capacitors on a 36V controller. Which means you can go 13S (48V which is 54.6V fully charged) or 14S (52V which is 58.8V fully charged), but you need to remember that the LVC of the controller will not change, you might have to change the LVC resistor network on the pcb, or if your lucky have a software interface where you can change the LVC but with a 36V controller might not be able to go to high, due to software limitations.

*Also remember that if you go to small a wheel, the handling of the bicycle changes, the roll-over of obstacles changes the riding characteristics.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 22 2021 7:47pm

Modifying the controller shunts to increase the discharge amps of the controller is another mod you can do to get more power, but your speed wont increase. Power (Watts) = Voltage (V) x Amps (A), which means power is a factor for climbing hills. I noticed a big difference in climbing with 36V 25A and 36V 40A, even the slightest long hill is noticeable and always want to get up hills quickly. Stalling and going slow on a hill means cooking motors.

You may get lucky and have 100V capacitors in your controller, but like I said before the controllers LVC will come into play if you require that, otherwise your batteries LVC would be engaged. If you dont have a battery professionally made with a BMS, or you made your battery without a BMS LVC (which some people do) then those are all factors.

I like my Leaf 1500W a lot but like I said somewhere before I should have went with a higher turn count motor as I don't like a lot of speed.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Mar 22 2021 8:17pm

Do the freewheel versions of these come with a longer axle on the drive side than the cassette versions?

I recently obtained a much better paying job as an engineer and I'm looking at getting a 3T wind of the 1000W Leafbike in a 20" rim, or 16" motorcycle/scooter rim if that can be arranged. But the main motivating factor is to have enough clearance to easily tighten everything down while retaining both torquearms, so that I can turn the regen up higher without worry it's going to work itself loose, as well as enabling a higher top speed than I currently have.

Because of my work schedule, I don't know when I will get the chance to go over to my friend's shop again to finish my 72V 21AH NCR18650GA pack. Upgrading to the 72V pack would also entail temporarily taking the trike out of commission, and re-wiring the Cycle Analyst and torque sensor and adding in the 12V system with DC to DC converter, and I can't afford to do this and miss a day of work. I've been using this bike to visit job sites and am getting reimbursed the IRS per mile vehicle rate, which is paying well by itself considering this thing gets 50 miles on $0.05 of electricity. This also means I need to charge every day because my little 46.8V 10.5AH pack is only giving me a 50 mile range, which I have used almost all of 5 times already, and charging it at home requires running an extension cord out the door to the battery, which means I can't set the burglar alarm to my dwelling space since the door is open, which means if I get home late at night I'm missing a few hours of sleep to let this charge. While I can still pedal it perfectly fine with a drained battery, when I go from job site to job site, it is expected that I arrive in a time comparable to using a car, so pedaling with a dead battery will not work so well for this given the hills around here, as operating it with the motor off drops my rolling averages from 30+ mph to 13-23 mph.

I ordered two used Greenway 46.8V 15.6AH packs for $200 for the pair and am going to parallel them, for what should be a 150 mile range at the 30-35 mph I typically ride this at. I will no longer have to charge it every day. This will also give me 3 kW peak, instead of my current 1500W, aiding acceleration. The amount of miles I've ridden this for work already and what I'm getting reimbursed with for them will cover that pack cost by the end of next week. An upgrade to a 3T wind 1000W Leafbike motor would give me a 50+ mph top speed with a 20" wheel in this vehicle to go with that, covered with another 3 weeks of riding back and forth to job sites. None of this will come out of my main hourly pay, so it's a nice little bonus attributable to this thing being so cheap to operate! My hard hat, gloves, tools, vest, med kit, computer, measuring wheel, safety goggles, steel toe boots, all fit in the trunk area.

I have almost 3,500 miles on it as an EV since January. The only major worry is the axle threading on my current 4T cassette motor not holding up to regen. I do not want this to leave me stranded, and I need more axle length to make regen reliable to use because of torquearm clearance issues. My current solution was to de-tune the regen torque max and ramp and limit regen to 250W. Nothing has come loose since in more than 2,000 of miles of use, with the CA displaying a regen rate typically between 7-15%. But I would like the regen to be set more powerful, and I know it won't work with my current setup. More powerful regen would increase range and save a lot of wear and tear on my brake pads. Once I have a new motor, I can take my current 4T one off and repair the axle threading on it too. It would make a fine motor for a back-up trike or bike(or commercially available velomobile if I find one at the right price).

Eventually, I will go to a 72V or with a better controller even a 96V pack. But there's a lot I'm going to have to do to this vehicle before I can justify the use of that, given that its top speed will become very car-like.
Custom electric velomobile, 1500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Mar 22 2021 8:59pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Mar 22 2021 8:17pm
But I would like the regen to be set more powerful, and I know it won't work with my current setup. More powerful regen would increase range and save a lot of wear and tear on my brake pads.
I'm interested in seeing how this turns out for you. I've found the opposite; increasing regen decreases range because the bike brakes harder and the time regen is active is shorter. Moderate regen seems to pay the most dividends on my bike, but maybe that also has to do with terrain and riding conditions.


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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by donn » Mar 23 2021 9:33am

E-HP wrote:
Mar 22 2021 8:59pm
I'm interested in seeing how this turns out for you. I've found the opposite; increasing regen decreases range because the bike brakes harder and the time regen is active is shorter. Moderate regen seems to pay the most dividends on my bike, but maybe that also has to do with terrain and riding conditions.
And vehicle mass. I had the same thought, but I bet his rig is heavier, so the equivalent braking power would be correspondingly higher.

Might also depend on wheel size? Smaller wheel, higher RPM, more regen - so if the configuration parameter is in Watts, the same value is effectively less regen on the smaller wheel?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Mar 23 2021 6:11pm

Mine currently weighs 82 lbs with all the EV components but otherwise unladen. Add 20 lbs tools/food/water, 15 lbs work gear/PPE, and I'm also 140 lbs. That's 247 lbs all up weight. Without regen, I'd lose 3-5+ miles of range on this current pack.

Once I install a larger battery, regen won't be as important, BUT I'd still like to have it. 750W was about ideal when I had it working, other than the fact that it worked itself loose. I was able to avoid using the front brakes in about 75% of stops, saving wear and tear on the pads. I'm hoping I can get a version of this motor with a longer axle length on the sprocket side. I want to get it clamped in tight. I have plans of going much higher than 1500W peak forward thrust. With the new pack I'm going to soon have, I'll do 3 kW, but in the longer term, I'm going to build something to peak at 7 kW using a Leafbike once I build my dream battery and upgrade the controller from the puny Phaserunner I now have. Anything after that, I'm going to need to find a more powerful motor...
Custom electric velomobile, 1500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Mar 23 2021 10:23pm

I know I probably already mentioned this in this thread somewhere, but my Leaf 1500W doesnt have very long axles on either side at all. It kind of pisses me off actually.

My mxus 3kw 45H had longer axles with a ton more room to install my handiwork T.A.'s out of 1/4" steel plate.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 25 2021 12:35am

markz wrote:
Mar 23 2021 10:23pm
I know I probably already mentioned this in this thread somewhere, but my Leaf 1500W doesnt have very long axles on either side at all. It kind of pisses me off actually.
It is a pretty crappy, and easily avoided, design feature. My front Leaf motor has through-the-axle wiring on the left, without enough length of unslotted axle to accommodate a torque arm on that side. But compared to a torque arm on a solid axle end, a torque arm on a hollow axle end is just window dressing anyway. I made a painstakingly fitted, badass right side torque arm and decided that was enough.

Better would be extra axle length to work with. Even better would be longer axle studs that are solid on both sides. Best would be integrating a torque arm inside the dropout, like every coaster brake hub ever. Duh. C'mon guys, y'all can do it.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Bullfrog » Mar 25 2021 7:44am

Chalo wrote:
Mar 25 2021 12:35am
markz wrote:
Mar 23 2021 10:23pm
I know I probably already mentioned this in this thread somewhere, but my Leaf 1500W doesnt have very long axles on either side at all. It kind of pisses me off actually.
It is a pretty crappy, and easily avoided, design feature. My front Leaf motor has through-the-axle wiring on the left, without enough length of unslotted axle to accommodate a torque arm on that side. But compared to a torque arm on a solid axle end, a torque arm on a hollow axle end is just window dressing anyway. I made a painstakingly fitted, badass right side torque arm and decided that was enough.

Better would be extra axle length to work with. Even better would be longer axle studs that are solid on both sides. Best would be integrating a torque arm inside the dropout, like every coaster brake hub ever. Duh. C'mon guys, y'all can do it.
Chalo...you mean like the GMAC that Grin Tech sells now :lol: . Obviously, I agree with you :D .

A little off topic but is anybody aware of a good hub motor that has 170mm OLD besides the Bafang G60 series? Considering building a bike using the new Mongoose ALX Dolomite and from what I can find, it has a 170mm OLD as opposed to the 190mm OLD the older steel framed version came with...and of course I have bent every 190mm axle I have ever ridden :wink: .

Thanks

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 25 2021 9:58am

Bullfrog wrote:
Mar 25 2021 7:44am
A little off topic but is anybody aware of a good hub motor that has 170mm OLD besides the Bafang G60 series?
Here is Leaf's offering in that size:
https://www.leafbike.com/products/beach ... -1088.html

I can't find the unlaced hub on their site, but I imagine they would make it available to you if you asked.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Bullfrog » Mar 25 2021 11:05am

Chalo wrote:
Mar 25 2021 9:58am
Bullfrog wrote:
Mar 25 2021 7:44am
A little off topic but is anybody aware of a good hub motor that has 170mm OLD besides the Bafang G60 series?
Here is Leaf's offering in that size:
https://www.leafbike.com/products/beach ... -1088.html

I can't find the unlaced hub on their site, but I imagine they would make it available to you if you asked.
Nice, Thanks :D .

I didn't realize Leaf offered a 170mm OLD motor. Now to verify the new Mongoose ALX Dolomite actually has 170mm rear spacing...the older steel framed fat tire frames that Mongoose offered all have 190mm OLD and with a 9mm axle, it was easy to bend :cry: .

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Mar 25 2021 11:11am

Bullfrog wrote:
Mar 25 2021 11:05am
...the older steel framed fat tire frames that Mongoose offered all have 190mm OLD and with a 9mm axle, it was easy to bend :cry: .
135mm Mongoose axles are easy to bend, too. That's one of the many reasons why they're bicycle-shaped objects (BSOs) and not bicycles.
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