I went to a few different hardware stores(Home Depot, Sutherlands, Lowes, ect) and none of them had any nylon sheet or webbing. Do you know where I might obtain some, without having to get a pre-paid debit card, order it from the internet, and wait for it in the mail? I normally like to pay cash for the things I want, but finding them for this trike has been a chore. I need to do something about that seat before I can ride it regularly, otherwise it's an accident waiting to happen.amberwolf wrote:YOu can also use nylon "webbing" meant for overhead canopy stuff; that's what my CrazyBIke2 seat was made of originally, with holes melted thru it's doubled-up edges so I could lace the back together with paracord to tension it.
Presently it is made of the nylon base "sheet" that was on a sleeper couch (the part suspended by it's edges with springs that holds up the mattress), with holes at the edges for lacing, though this time I used a harbor-freight reinforcement-ring eyelet "kit" where you hammer a ttol thru the material to make the hole, then the other part of the tool to close the eyelets thru the material to reinforce the hole. Then again it's laced with paracord across the back to tension it, in a pattern like that on a shoe's string over it's tongue.
If I go this route, I will be looking less towards power and more towards specific capacity. The more Wh/kg, the more electric range I get. Something in the range of 300 Wh/kg, if commercially available, would be nice...Another option, if you don't mind building it, is 18650 cells. There's a number of ways to build packs out of new cells easily enough (lots of threads on that sort of thing, which cells are better, etc; havent' tried it yet myself), or you can buy premade packs from reputable USA vendors.
I had earlier stated it was a KMX Thunderbolt, thinking that the term Thunderbolt used to describe a recumbent pedal trike was exclusively their domain, but later found out that the Thunderbolt I have was a separate make from a separate company. The seller of this trike told me he had assembled it from a kit some 15 years ago.Chalo wrote:Ha, I just realized you have a Thunderbolt. I used to work with Rick Horwitz in the late '90s. He was a production engineer and I was a development machinist in the same high tech startup firm.
The Toecutter wrote:I just found a potential donor about an hour's drive away from me for under $600. I need to take a good look at this thing.
What I've found out so far by speaking to the owner is that it is a tadpole recumbent trike with front disc brakes and rear suspension. The owner claims it weighs 40 to 50 lbs. There is no front suspension and no rear disc brake.
Given these limits, a rear wheel swap to motorcycle or moped parts could allow a disc brake. Beefier front wheels could be substituted from a motorcycle/moped as well, to allow excellent traction and cornering, not to mention ride cushion.
I don't see myself doing more than 50 mph without a front suspension, but perhaps I could go for a setup that reaches about 50 mph, from a stop, in under 4 seconds, without one...
...or maybe develop my own suspension and steering system, to allow higher speeds, which I would have had to do anyway if I designed a completely custom chassis.
I was originally thinking of using a honeycomb monocoque sandwich composite and folding a fuselage structure out of it for my trike design, but getting a working trike frame that can already be pedaled would be infinitely easier, far less expensive, and shorten the time between having just my current bicycle available, and having a viable car substitute.
You see, with a working chassis that can be pedaled, I can immediately jump into making a body, while still planning the electric drive subsystem. Using zote-foam, a body of around 10 lbs can be done, but that material would not be suitable for mounting solar panels. Getting a feel for a pedal velomobile would definitely be a wise choice before jumping into building something dangerous, anyway, and keep the cost of my first trike project down.
I estimate, best case scenario, about 40 lbs of batteries can be fit to this. If I had only 25 lbs of those Multistar High Capacity 6S 10AH batteries, it would be a 3S3P pack of 66.6V yielding 1600 Wh usable to 80% discharge. This is 160W of power for 10 hours straight. 66.6V with 3 Astroflight RC motors and a mid drive could give a very broad operating range.
Pictures are attached of this used trike. It seems like a good buy. I hope to get a chance to look at it this weekend.
My current trike has a wheelbase of 51" and a front track of 31". That doesn't seem too bad. I've gone through a little math from "Chassis Design: Principles and Analysis" by Maurice Olley, and theoretically, this trike should be safe in corners at 30 mph speeds as long as the G forces are kept reasonable.ScooterMan101 wrote:First , the pictures of that short wheelbase tadpole trike you posted a picture of below, I would only use for speeds under 30mph, I did research on this a few years back and decided against such a bike. it will only be good/safe/fun for low speeds.
I've looked into these things and have determined that I will need to design from the ground up to optimize what is available. This current frame is a test bed, more than anything, and to also give me a source of reliable, long-distance transport.Second, I am interested in what you are wanting , higher speed, enclosed, etc. trike.
if you have not already done so, look into the lightest weight , motorcycle parts, wheels, etc.
make your own frame.
Make your frame long !
I have not looked much into tilting trikes, being fond of reduced mechanical complexity. Tilting will add all sorts of clearance issues for my body shell as well.And do allot of research on tilting trikes and post your findings / links here on this thread.
The closest I've come to this is hauling ass through a sharp corner at 20 mph, with a turn of perhaps a 25-30 foot radius. It wasn't anywhere close to flipping, and felt very stable other than the rear wheel wanting to get loose.Do center of gravity testing on your frame/heavy velomobile !
Nope.Can You can have at least a moped license ?
I've been thinking about this idea for more than a year before I started this project.Well after you finish this one, the next step/project should be , an enclosed velomobile, ( larger than you trike, taller , longer, and bright colors so no more trucks or other vehicles running over it with you in it or it parked by itself ) !
For 50+ mph over long periods, motorcycle parts are a must. That being said, an Etek would be a bit heavy for my application given the 100 lb weight limit.For higher speeds, I would be wanting to use light weight motorcycle parts ( 250cc racing motorcycle parts ) and or Scooter parts , suspension, tires, chain, etc. along with a stronger motor like the Perm 132 , Etek, or similar motor.
Without knowing specifically which kit I can't answer for sure, but:The Toecutter wrote:I have been studying the Crystalite Rear H kit with PAS lately and will need a few questions answered before I know whether it is a viable candidate or not.
1) Can the freewheel spin independently of the motor and allow the bike to be pedaled with no electric assist if the battery runs dead?
2) How difficult is it to fit this motor to a 22" moped rim with thick 10ga spokes? I would like some stronger wheels and tires if I'm going to buy a kit that allows a 45+ mph top speed at 72V...
Shinko SR241s seem about as good as the pirellis if you have access to both. They're what I went with mostly due to avialabilty locally, partly for cost.If I did this, for the front, I'd be looking at fitting some small Pirelli ML75 2.5-16 on my front double-walled Weinmann DM30 rims, and a moped rim and a compatible tire in the rear that matched the diameter of my current rear bicycle tire/rim.
I'd use a suspended mesh seat; that's worked better f or me than any amount or type of padded seat. It's cooler, too, and won't get a puddle in the rain for yoyyu to have to sit in and stew.I may even decide to buy a KMX with a front suspension kit and deal with the lack of rear suspension, and get a very cushy, durable seat.
I've read most of this thread and imho this is total phantasy, especially considering your other wishes like 10kW Motor, 50mph top Speed, 100lbs Maximum weight, solar Panels, etc....The Toecutter wrote: Minimum Design Parameters(needs)
-Legality: must be street legal as an "electric bicycle" within the state of Texas and able to be legally pedalled without license or registration
-Minimum Range: must cover 300 miles a day
-Minimum Performance: top speed of at least 35 mph
-Minimum Protection: the rider's body needs to be isolated from the elements
-Minimum Utility: trail-able on an off-road bike trail at 15 mph safely
-Maximum Build Cost: cannot exceed $4,000 parts/materials cost
Texas's e-bike law has no power limit, and the 20mph limit is specific to when the motor is used alone. A literal reading of the law suggests that PAS control would have no speed limit beyond that of the road. There is a 100 pound weight limit.Cephalotus wrote:Add a geared and free wheeling 750W hub motor for accelartion and going uphill with assist up to 20mph to keep it "strictly legal". (if there really is no power and speed limit on ebikes in Texas (really???) than save on that)
There are plenty of examples dotting the internet that already exist which meet most of my requirements:Cephalotus wrote:
I've read most of this thread and imho this is total phantasy, especially considering your other wishes like 10kW Motor, 50mph top Speed, 100lbs Maximum weight, solar Panels, etc....
You can not have everything like a bicycle, a small car and an offroad mountainbike in just one vehicle. You just forgot to mention that it should fly.
That is out of my budget, and I'd have a wait time of a year or so...My Suggestion: Buy an aerodynamic velomobile. World record is 660km in just 12 hours using a Milan SL and the guy continued for another 12 hours afterwards. Obviously from an athlete under perfect conduitions.
I've never ridden in one, so I couldn't confirm whether that is the case. I've heard it's much more bearable than an upright bike, even in the heat. I do know that ducts are present for this vehicle, and with the low wattage needed to maintain 30 mph, the cooling gained with higher air speed combined with a body to shade the rider from the sun while expending relatively little energy for such a speed seems like it would be superior to an upright bike where the rider is exposed to the sun and whom would reach only 15 mph on the same amount of exertion.So maybe 200 miles/day is doable for a mortal rider under "normal conditions". I do not know if the heat will kill you in Texas though...
The Milan SL needs only 150W to maintain 30 mph, so upgrading it with some lossier/more durable bicycle tires, and adding 30-40 lbs of motor/battery/controller could up that to 200W. 250-300W if DOT tires and moped/motorcycle wheels are added, given the increases in losses that this entails.Add a 1-2kWh battery made from 18650 cells (weights around 5-10kg) if you have that 20mph limit, so you are running most of the time at 100% human power above 20mph, otherwise you need more batteries for 200 miles.
The motivation extends beyond that. The idea of having a vehicle that can drive all day on $0.25 worth of electricity is a concept that I think is worth exploring. What kind of street-legal car have you seen that can get the equivalent of thousands of miles per gallon in terms of energy consumption? Since a Shell Eco-marathon racer can't hope to pass current regulations to be cleared for road use, a road-legal fast as hell e-bike could fill that sort of niche with similarly ridiculous efficiency numbers, and at least in Texas and about 5 other U.S. states, do it in a way that's 100% legal.Accept that you are not allowed to drive a car. I wouldn't try to build one.
The question of how many pounds I have to work with is what I'm trying to figure out. Examples of e-assist recumbent trikes capable of 45+ mph speeds range from 65-90 lbs, none of them with bodies, and of questionable safety at top speed.Chalo wrote:You bump up against the weight limit just making it electrically and physically robust enough to go fast safely,
I may attempt the latter path that you mention at some point. An aluminum monocoque chassis that has an integrated cage with only a carbon-fiber or even zote-foam skin over it for a body could do well, and keep it both light and safe. If you allow the monocoque to provide the crush resistance and protection, then a thin, fragile light-weight body can be used without compromising safety much.and then you have to add a fairing. Once you divide up the weight budget among frame, cycle parts, motor/transmission, batteries, mountings, and fairing, you can have either a trike that's simple and quite slow, or one that's as fragile as a carton of eggs. Or perhaps you could throw lots of kilodollars at the problem and come up with some kind of aerospace monocoque that integrates frame, fairing, and mountings into the same unit.
I've had bad experiences with the police here, and no criminal record of any kind. Recording my interactions with them could have busted them though...I would not expect any law enforcement officer in Texas to have a clue about the statutes covering e-bikes, or to respect an e-biker's legal rights even if e-biker carries a copy of the relevant state codes with him. If he wants to believe it's an illegal vehicle, he'll treat it as one and let a court sort out the mess.
Like most places, Texas doesn't hire smart people for police work, nor do the cops usually face consequences when they violate citizens' legal rights.
But can those ride 300 miles per day and are they "strictly street legal"? I don't see it.The Toecutter wrote: There are plenty of examples dotting the internet that already exist which meet most of my requirements:
Something along the lines of anything linked in the above videos combined with a body shell, full suspension, and moped/motorcycle wheels./tires that can safely cruise at 30+ mph doesn't seem to be an implausible proposition.
Sure. But can you make something better with your first try than those that build thousands of them and optimesed them over many years?For that kind of budget, I could have a custom monocoque made,...
It get's warm inside, because there is almost no airflow inside. That'a benefit during winter. During summer one propably has to try and find out.I've never ridden in one, so I couldn't confirm whether that is the case. I've heard it's much more bearable than an upright bike, even in the heat. I do know that ducts are present for this vehicle, and with the low wattage needed to maintain 30 mph, the cooling gained with higher air speed combined with a body to shade the rider from the sun while expending relatively little energy for such a speed seems like it would be superior to an upright bike where the rider is exposed to the sun and whom would reach only 15 mph on the same amount of exertion.
Did you find out that it is legal in Texas to run an electric bike at 50mph and 10kW without a drivers license just because there are some pedals on it. This sounds very hard to believe. I assume that anything above 20mph your Motor has to be shut of to be strictly street legal.An electric motor to do some of the work would only make these ducts even more functional as the impact of reduced rider effort for a given speed will yield an even cooler inside temperature. Increased airflow for less rider exertion, and the rider produces far more heat per watt of mechanical output than the electric drive does.
That's why I would suggest a velomobil. you can pedal it beyond 20mph on your own power. This is legal and you do not Need a large battery for long distances.
The Milan SL needs only 150W to maintain 30 mph, so upgrading it with some lossier/more durable bicycle tires, and adding 30-40 lbs of motor/battery/controller could up that to 200W. 250-300W if DOT tires and moped/motorcycle wheels are added, given the increases in losses that this entails.
The cost of electricity is neglible compared to the cost of maintaining an electric bike, even more maintaining an electric assisted velomobil. It becomes quite expensive if you run a few thousand miles on them, especially if you use extra lightweight parts...
That 1 kWh battery gives 100 miles range at 30 mph to full discharge under that scenario outlined in the above paragraph. 150 miles range if the load at the wheel is 250W instead of 300W. That's how it's likely to perform with components meant for safe use in heavier/faster vehicles, if the calculations in a spreadsheet I made are correct.
The motivation extends beyond that. The idea of having a vehicle that can drive all day on $0.25 worth of electricity is a concept that I think is worth exploring.
I still wonder if something like a Twike active ( http://www.twike.com/en_GB/vehicles/twike-3/ if weight was much lower than it is at 270kg) or the Aerorider ( http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html which si slightly above 100lbs, if I remebre correctly) would be called a electric bicycle in Texas, where you do not need a license or insurance, just because there are some pedals on it?
and at least in Texas and about 5 other U.S. states, do it in a way that's 100% legal.
Yes, but you need to keep it lightweight and you nned to Keep the motor small.It would be a vehicle that could literally be driven without needing "fuel" if so desired, and when you had "fuel", you could keep up with the cars.
But they will not ride 30mph at just 300W of power.I don't think that a complete vehicle minus electric drive coming in at only 75-80 lbs, safely capable of handling highway speeds, is out of the question. There's more than a few home-built 45+ mph top speed full-suspension e-bikes and/or e-trikes around that weigh in that range or less WITH the electric drive system in them, while using heavy steel components.
If you don't play buy the rules your are out. Like it or not.Like most places, Texas doesn't hire smart people for police work, nor do the cops usually face consequences when they violate citizens' legal rights.
I still can not believe that they will have no speed limit on electric bikes just because you add pedals to it.This vehicle by its very nature will probably be inviting trouble from them, so I expect interactions with them at some point. I have a few ideas on how to make it visible that I am pedaling, without turning the shell into a greenhouse, along with a design that allows part of the front to flip open to reveal the pedals when stopped.
This is easy.Many velomobile owners who are stopped by police tend to explain that it's a bicycle, and are usually left alone after. Police rarely check for a motor on a non-assist velomobile, but when they do, they see no motor in sight because it has none...
Sooner or later they will stop you and the casual inspection will turn into a more detailed inspection. Sonn they will notice that you tried to hide a motorcycle...If it convincingly looks like a HPV to any casual inspection, it will decrease the likelihood of being deemed a car or motorcycle if the officer gets too curious.
"Bicycle" means either of the following:
(1) A device having two wheels and having at least one saddle or seat for the use of a rider, which is propelled by human power.
(2) A device having two or three wheels with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (one horsepower), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden, is less than 20 miles per hour.
Would it be reasonable to use to the GA law as example that a (your) legislature could be specific on the issue in question, but has chosen not to? The 100 lb. limitation, like Iowa's power limitation, makes a non-limited top speed reasonable in my opinion.The electric motor in an electric assisted bicycle shall:
(A) Have a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
(B) Be incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and
(C) Be incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the device at or more than 20 miles per hour.
From the State of Texas Transportation Code:Cephalotus wrote:[Did you find out that it is legal in Texas to run an electric bike at 50mph and 10kW without a drivers license just because there are some pedals on it. This sounds very hard to believe. I assume that anything above 20mph your Motor has to be shut of to be strictly street legal.
It's clear that a literal reading of this code implies that as long as you pedal, there's no speed limit. I'm sure an anti-cyclist prosecutor and an anti-cyclist judge could agree on a different conclusion, but the law is pretty plain.(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and
(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.
Their legality will depend on their location. 300 miles per day may not be obtainable with them, but they also are open to the elements and with very high drag. Trikes of those sorts have been built to have a range approaching 100 miles with no body whatsoever, that being said. Outrider USA even has a 300 mile range trike that is in my target weight range.Cephalotus wrote:
But can those ride 300 miles per day and are they "strictly street legal"? I don't see it.
For my specific application, the answer is maybe. I am an engineer and dabbled a bit in vehicle design already, and have built an electric vehicle conversion. A velomobile was originally designed to operate under strictly human power, and I am somewhat doubtful of the ability of a quest or Milan to handle 10 horsepower without something going catastrophically wrong. That being said, modifications could certainly be made to one that may make it suitable. A Milan SL with holes drilled into it to add a custom frame might work...Sure. But can you make something better with your first try than those that build thousands of them and optimesed them over many years?
I will know what happens when I put a body on my Thunderbolt. I am going to have NACA ducts positioned in the proper places.It get's warm inside, because there is almost no airflow inside. That'a benefit during winter. During summer one propably has to try and find out.
20 mph is too slow for my requirements. I need 30-35 for my cruising speed.So with a 300 miles per day trip you Need to go above 20mph and you will be entirely on your own power at that Speed.
Most of the loadin on those trikes at speeds above 10 mph is aerodynamic drag. I would expect a body properly shaped to mitigate this to a significant extent. There's no getting around the inertia losses of heavy wheels/tires and high mass during acceleration, but steady cruising on flat ground shouldn't be that bad...This is why the linked YouTube vehicle imho do not fit what you have been looking for. They are slow to pedal on your own and you will have a hard time to do 300 miles per day on them legaly. (that's 15 hours at 20mph if you want to use motor power)
The hub motor does impose increased rotating mass, and I could see that being a problem under acceleration. A mid drive solves this. My indecision on what an optimal motor for my chassis is at this time is why I haven't purchased a motor yet. I almost bought Electron Bom's Lightningrod's Smallblock kit, but I should probably have a body on it first and see how that does.That's why I would suggest a velomobil. you can pedal it beyond 20mph on your own power. This is legal and you do not Need a large battery for long distances.
But add a strong direct drive to the hub and the drag of that motor will kill you at 25mph.
I do not see why someone would use a huge Motor in an lightweigt efficient human power vehicle. I would go with a 750W geared hub motor that fee wheels above 20mph...
Maintenance costs of ebikes vary widely. I don't know what my cost per mile will be yet.The cost of electricity is neglible compared to the cost of maintaining an electric bike, even more maintaining an electric assisted velomobil. It becomes quite expensive if you run a few thousand miles on them, especially if you use extra lightweight parts...
Both of those, being over 100 lbs, wouldn't meet the definition of an electric "bicycle".I still wonder if something like a Twike active ( http://www.twike.com/en_GB/vehicles/twike-3/ if weight was much lower than it is at 270kg) or the Aerorider ( http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html which si slightly above 100lbs, if I remebre correctly) would be called a electric bicycle in Texas, where you do not need a license or insurance, just because there are some pedals on it?
Thanks. I'm going to add some ballast to the spokes of my rear wheel and see how that impacts the effort needed.Yes, but you need to keep it lightweight and you nned to Keep the motor small.
I can tell from my own experince (thousands of kms) with my electric bikes:
My 15kg bike with small geared Cute 85 motor (36V, 11A, 1.6kg) is easily and nice to ride without electric assistance. I have a wheel without motor, but don't use it.
My BionX systems (48V, 30A, but 250W sticker for EU use) are as light as it gets for such a direct drive motor at 3.4kg and have low drag for a direct drive and you actually can ride it above the pedelec speed limit of 25km/h, but it is not so much fun to ride them for longer distances. So I Change the rear wheel if I want to ride a tour without motor. 3,4kg sounds lightweight, but is is very noticeable and I replaced all my heavier 4.6kg BionX Motors, because pedaling a 4.6kg motor on your own is even less funny.
Because I don't like the speed limit I bought a s-Pedelc with BionX motor that is allowed to Support up to 45km/h.
This is my story. If someone thinks about pedaling some of those 8kg direct drive Motors over long distances I do not believe ist. This is no fun, you will not do it.
A hub motor under low loading and rpm is probably only around 75% efficient. I do intend to be using the motor most of the time, since it is what will allow 30 mph for long periods without me getting tired.So such a large and powerful motor is only of value if you can use it 99+% of your riding time with power. I do not know the Efficiency of such motors at super low power, but everything below 36V/2A is quite pointless even on the tiny Cute 85 in my experince. You start to feel the BionX at around 48V/2A, to make a noticeable difference on your Speed you need more power. 200W input starts to become quite significant.
Out of all of the variables responsible for this, I think that the lack of an aerodynamic body is the most significant one. I've gone through some math and it suggests this. With no body, such a trike could easily eat up 1-1.5 kW to do 30 mph on flat ground, but cut the drag to 1/4 and see what happens...But they will not ride 30mph at just 300W of power.
The off-road aspect is not as important as the ability to cruise at speed, so I can compromise there where needed. I really only need to be able to take it on dirt roads at low speeds when offroading as I would a cheap upright bike. I won't be racing offroad.The Problem is you want both in one vehicle. Powerfull motor and vehicle that takes 50mph and offroad driving on one Hand and super efficient street cruiser that rund 30mph at 300W on the other usining150W of your own power. I fail to see how that should work out.
Interesting. Thanks for the link.This was a solar ebike race from France to Kasachstan: http://thesuntrip.com/
The best drivers have averaged around 200km/day and the winner was very athletic.
You can use at the verious concepts and you will find many youtuve Videos an the tems and vehicles that participated.
I'm not intent on flying past a cop at 50 mph. I think I could get away with 30 mph though...This is easy.
It's much more complicated to explain to them that you have a motor but have riden 30mph on your own (best idea would be to remove the battery and show them)
I fail to see what you will tell them when you ride 50mph with it having this large motor in the rear wheel. "But I did pedal it, didn't you notice it?" Really? Your police will accept THAT and let you drive on?