What went wrong?

Purchased and installed new E-Bike kit. 500W geared hub, 48V 20.8amphr allcell battery. charged as instructed, plugged in and took a test ride. approx 4 miles, all seemed normal.The next afternoon, tried to power up, console flashed on-no response no display. battery seemed dead. Ebike advised me to recharge and leave on charger to balance cells. recharged in 5hrs, left on for additional 10 hrs to balance. tried to activate bike 3 days later- dead, no response. Advised to un plug battery and recharge to determine if something is draining the juice. Charger was on less then 10 minutes and green light indicated full charge, bms on top of battery was RED HOT, too hot to touch. unplugged and took the battery outside in 10 degree weather, took 2hrs to cool down to touch. I'm afraid to try to recharge, possible fire. Tried to test battery voltage with basic multi meter, got inconsistent readings- on 250vdc scale:48v, on 50vdc scale-22v ??? This is my first ebike, any ideas??

Put a fresh battery in your vom, then check the battery voltage again. If it reads - minus voltage reverse the leads.

Stuff like this is very hard to troubleshoot. Have to eliminate possibilities one by one. Charger should not have made the battery that hot. The bms on top should get very warm when it's working hard to lower the voltage of high cells, but not so hot it scalds your hand. If it never melted the shrink, it might still be in the range of normal, but the bms was working hard. Too hot to touch is a very subjective thing, I'll grab things way hotter than others can.

But the funny readings do make me suspect the DVM is not helping us figure this out. Use the 250v scale, but I think that reading is not too accurate. Fully charged you should be at 54.6v, so the 50v scale won't work. It's possible you need a new battery in your DVM.

Personally, I think the problem may not be the battery after all. Re check all the plugs one more time, in cold weather, it's harder to get them seated fully, make sure the arrows line up, and no prongs got somehow bent. It could be something like a defect in the 4 way cable.

Something's definitely wrong and your warranty is good. Talk to us again Monday morn.

First off, thank you for taking the time to help me out. New ES member, new Ebike owner. OK, put a new battery in my analog meter and retested. Same result 250dcv scale-approx 45v, on 50 dcv scale-20v. Went in the garage, popped the hood on the car and tested the battery- approx 14v on both scales. Is my cheap-o volt meter a pos? tested both charger port and power out plug same results. Shrink did not melt from heat. Bike is inside at room temp, and connections feel good.

80mA balance resistors can reach about 170F in my experience. So while that's startlingly HOT and usually makes me jump, it's not likely to burn skin with only swift contact. Those IR temp guns are handy things around this stuff, IMO.

Good thing you refreshed DVM battery and compared your meter readings with your car - I'd just leave it on 250V scale for now.

So battery VDC output is all over the place? How about probing ON charger output report back?

Plugged in the charger and tested the out put- approx 54-55dcv on 250 scale. this appears normal for charger- label states 54.6v dc 2.5a. One differance, initially, when charger was plugged in, red led indicated power on, then when battery conected 2nd led lit red until charged then turned green when charging finished. Just now when I plugged in charger to test, power light was on but 2nd led was also on green with no battery hooked up??? I'm at a loss.

Check the battery output again on same scale? Can you make a repeatable voltage reading from the battery? What do the charger lights indicate when you now connect the battery to charge? Also, try battery again on the bike, then put it back on the charger for moment and then go back to the bike. I've gotta BMS which in certain situations cuts-off and will only turn back on if I apply a brief shot of charge current.

Sorry, I'm not a user of this brand, do AllCell batteries use the same connector for charge/discharge?

Rechecked the Battery output-47-48v no change, Plug the battery into charger: nothing happens, iniatally as soon as battery was connected, the little cooling fan kicked on and the charging light lit red. Now, the fan did not come on and the full charge led is lit green indicating full charge. The allcell battery uses different connectors for charging and power out. Since the system is brand new, I am afraid to reconnect the battery to the bike not knownig where the electrical problem is and possibly shorting the controller/console/motor. With my limited experience, I don't want burn the whole system down. I need to let EBike service take it from here, cowardly but financially responseable, I'm sure you understand. I will report back as the situation improves. thank you for your knowledge and help.

Suit yourself but you're never doing nothing "wrong" or causing warranty-voiding damage connecting battery pack to a bike as it's intended to be connected.

If your battery pack has 48V, that's enough to power the controller. so you you may have a problem with the controller/display or the connections also. I have no idea what type system you have other than the all cell battery pack. Double check all connections.

Check the voltage on your charge socket rather than on the battery output terminals. If your BMS switches off the output for whatever reason, you can still measure voltage on the output terminals, but it will drop when you draw any current from it, which could be why you see a different voltage on the different scales. Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals. If it doesn't make a significant spark, the BMS is switched off.

d8veh said:

Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals. If it doesn't make a significant spark, the BMS is switched off.

Click to expand...

..also a good technique for removing unwanted fingerprints

d8veh said:

Check the voltage on your charge socket rather than on the battery output terminals. If your BMS switches off the output for whatever reason, you can still measure voltage on the output terminals, but it will drop when you draw any current from it, which could be why you see a different voltage on the different scales. Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals. If it doesn't make a significant spark, the BMS is switched off.

Click to expand...

Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals? Are you trying to give the man a bowel movement?

I also believe the pack is switched off. The erroneous readings come from the meters input impedance. I suggest a lamp is a more appropriate way to test the output than a dead short.

What's the matter with you guys, don't you understand physics. I said thin wire. I've done it loads of times and there's absolutely no danger. You just see some yellow sparks. His BMS is probably switched off anyway, so nothing will happen.

Yellow sparks my butt. Do it with my battery pack, and you will see a plasma flash and the wire disintegrate, along with the skin on the fingers holding it. You should never put a direct short on a battery. It's just not a good practice although I've done it a lot with 12v and below batteries. Best case scenario is the battery has a switch and power is off, or it's fused and you blow the fuse. That's why they make volt meters.

Stevil_Knevil said:

d8veh said:

Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals. If it doesn't make a significant spark, the BMS is switched off.

Click to expand...

..also a good technique for removing unwanted fingerprints

Click to expand...

LOL!!

In the movie Sudden Impact, Dirty Harry is bragging to his latest partner, Horace, about his new gun, an AutoMag 44, how powerful it is.

"...and when used properly, it can remove fingerprints!"

Please, everybody, don't short your world's most powerful batteries. You never know when it may not be your lucky day. Don't take the chance on blowing your eyes and face clean off. Don't you want to keep on being able to see pretty stuff?


GONZ

NO, don't do that.

Talk to Alec today. It sounds like your meter is good, and your charger is working right. But your battery is not putting out the 54.6v it should.

There may be an additional problem, causing the display to not light up, A bad plug in the system perhaps. We'll get this fixed.

Shoestring said:

First off, thank you for taking the time to help me out. New ES member, new Ebike owner. OK, put a new battery in my analog meter and retested. Same result 250dcv scale-approx 45v, on 50 dcv scale-20v. Went in the garage, popped the hood on the car and tested the battery- approx 14v on both scales. Is my cheap-o volt meter a pos? tested both charger port and power out plug same results. Shrink did not melt from heat. Bike is inside at room temp, and connections feel good.

Click to expand...

Car batteries:
Car not running, battery not recently charged with a charger plugged in to grid current, a 12v car battery will normally read between about 12.5v and maybe 13v. They are considered having a charge condition of 100% charge at 13.0v and completely discharged, 0% charge, at 12.0v. Mechanics consider the charge level to be equal to the fraction between 12.0v to 13.0v; 12.5v is 50% charged, 12.8% is 80% charged, 13.0v is 100% charged. I know, I know, you can still get some work out of them at 12v and under, light your lights dimly, play your radio a little, faintly, whatever, but I'm just telling you how mechanics normally talk about it.

When I charge a car battery with a booster for 24 or 48 hours, it will usually show me 14v or a little higher from "top charge". This steadily self discharges until it stabilizes at close to 13.0v after a few hours. Right now I have two unemployed batteries that, a few days ago, both showed 13.04v a day after being charged for 48 hours.

It is very ordinary for the average car's battery to show maybe 12.6v or close when given a pop quiz.

Reading 14v on your car's battery tells me something is wrong with your voltmeter or testing technique.


GONZ

Try your other throttle. Sometimes a bad throttle will cause the display to not light up. I forgot about that one earlier. That could be the only problem.

Hello gentlemen, switched out throttles- no change, battery plugged in, console screen flashes on for instant then nothing. Here is what I do know: the charger is acting differently then originally and the $100 question- why did the battery go dead (i'm assuming) the first time after everything seem to operate correctly after initial set up?
I watched the troubleshooting videos on the Ebikekit web site and followed the procedure to the "t". The only difference I could detect is I can get full current out of charger port without battery being plugged in, the video clearly states you have to have the battery plugged in to the charger and test through the power out port. I get the same voltage at both locations. The system worked as advertised the first outing, throttle control was instant, all 5 power levels were clearly detectable, Console registered speed and distance, back light worked. ebrakes cut power amd indicator lit, and power shut down on command. Then 12 hrs later the system is dead and here we are. Does it matter which way the controller is mounted? Mine is mounted to the underside of the rear rack, for cooling purposes and it made a clean wire job. How would you dectect a slow current loss? The battery "melt, over heat, whatever" and change in charger operation occured at the same time when battery was unplugged from bike within 10 minutes of connecting the charger. this was only the 3rd time for recharging.

I'll pick up a better DVM tomorrow on the way home from work and try to get more accurate readings. Thanks for the ideas.

d8veh said:

Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals. If it doesn't make a significant spark, the BMS is switched off.

Click to expand...

Back in the 80's while stationed at Insurlik Air Force Base in Turkey I found myself working alongside a Turkish electrician who would routinely strip and separate fine stranded copper wires to use as a voltage tester. He didn't own a meter.
To load test a battery pack I would use a light bulb and a DVM.

d8veh said:

Take a thin piece of wire and use it to short the battery output terminals. If it doesn't make a significant spark, the BMS is switched off.

Click to expand...

I have to say, this is probably the single worst piece of advice I've ever seen on this forum.

The OP is obviously not very adept at electrical things to begin with and you advise him to short his battery?!?

What exactly is thin anyway? What's thin to you may not be thin to him. or what's thin to you may be so thin he wouldn't think to use it.

Sounds like the problem may be the charger, and possibly still the battery. Were you able to talk to anybody on the phone yesterday?

The shop will be open and answering the phones today for sure. I forgot yesterday was a holiday.

I'm bummed the bike didn't light up with the other throttle, I was hoping that was an easy fix for the bike part of it.

I hate to say this but this will be a good test of All-cell Warantee service. I have had good experience with E-Bikekit's service but know nothing about All-cell except they are supposed to be good but very expensive batteries. I am watching this thread to see what happens. My guess is either charger is not charging or battery has a fault. What are the charger readings? What does the battery read (while charging if possible). Definately an "eye of the tiger" situation because I know little about All-Cell's warantee service.
otherDoc

Just re-read and 47-48 volts on a 48 volt nominal battery is essentially discharged. So the question becomes: Is the charger working to charge or is the BMS shut off and preventing a charge. Ideally the voltage of each parallel cell group should be listed, preferably while charging. All even cell charges is good.

Hello, I purchased a new DVM and checked the battery and charger. Battery reads 44.1v, charger out put without battery hooked up 54.6, after battery plugged in to charger the battery out put read 54.6. I'm guessing the current is bypassing the battery. Battery charger still indicates battery is fully charged!

MR Dogman, I have spoken with Alec multiple times. I have explained the situation multiple times. I have sent him pictures of battery and charger. He has opened a warranty tag number, He said he must contact Allcell for their input on the situation. He seems very busy and I'm not sure if we are at all on track to getting this resolved. I have offered to bring the bike and the battery and all components over to the Newportville location so they(EBike) could diagnose and verify the installation and operation of all other components. I have not heard back yet. One of the reasons I purchased this kit from Ebikekit was the good reputation of the company and Allcell batteries, right now, I have $2200.00 worth of nonfunctioning wires and bike parts. I need to get this resolved. Respectfully, "Shoestring"

One of the above posters remarked "the OP is not very adept at electrical diagnosis" This is in fact TOTALLY correct and why I asked for everyone's input. Thank you all again.