Show me your electric velomobile.

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Eskimo   10 kW

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Eskimo » Jan 23 2016 1:39pm

Give me that new Quattrovelo. Man it"s cool. Would be very interesting project to motorize. Four wheels and i don"t like mid-drives.
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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Jan 23 2016 2:36pm

Kai wrote:
davevelo wrote:Unfortunately my Quest velomole doesn't have two handed forks and it's impossible to install a normal hubmotor. I would have to make extensive modifications to frame and rear swing arm design. I know there are hub motors that are "lefty" or single side mounted but that requires fabricating a new swing arm. Interesting idea anyway.
There is at least one Quest with custom swing arm and hub motor out there. I can't find the link, but IIRC it was one of the older model with 20" rear wheel.
Ask velomobiel.nl they most likely know about it and can point you in the right direction.

An other option could be, to ask Patrick (his nick is Jack-Lee in the German velomobilforum.de) from Velomo.eu if he could build a custom swing arm that will fit into the standard mounting brackets. That way you can swop swing arms back and forth without altering the Quest.

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Warren » Dec 01 2016 9:10am

Not mine, but a big company's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug

tahustvedt   10 kW

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by tahustvedt » Dec 01 2016 11:56am

Warren wrote:Not mine, but a big company's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug
That gives off more electric wheelchair vibes than velomobile vibes to me. :)

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by docnjoj » Dec 02 2016 8:04am

I don't know about the wheelchair vibes but it has 4 wheels making it a car in most of the US.
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E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by MikeSSS » Dec 02 2016 11:03am

Fastolfe wrote:
sendler2112 wrote:I use my CBR250R
which is not a car. Bikes are thrifty, but they suck hard in the rain. I'd rather be warm and cosy in my velo than wet on your bike.
sendler2112 wrote:at 100 mpgUS. A $4,300 purchase price and $.023/ mile for fuel takes a long time to reach $8,000 for a velo.
Typical blindness of motor vehicle owners to the true cost of ownership. It costs more to own your bike than just the cost of fuel: there's taxes, insurance, maintenance, depreciation - and in your case, specialized motorcycle gear, etc. Do the math, and the picture will look a lot less rosy.

Owning a velo proves less costly in the long run, and the amortization period gets shorter the more you ride. But even if it's costlier, there are other things to consider: less pollution, better health, easy parking, being happy to hit the road every morning as opposed to being miserable in a steel box stuck in traffic, being able to do your own maintenance...

But hey, to each his own :)
Your analysis is poor, it leads to an incorrect conclusion. Was that intentional, perhaps wrong, judgmental and intolerant on purpose?

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by 5150 » Mar 27 2017 4:32am

Off topic:
Who makes that white race cap that your Quest is wearing?

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Apr 28 2019 12:00pm

Finally, I can resurrect this old thread from the dead. ;)
This is my take on a electrified velomobile:

A Milan GT with Bafang SWXH, Phaserunner and 20s battery.

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by The Toecutter » Apr 28 2019 4:04pm

Nice! Really loving the DF air intake and light combo.

How many wh/mi does it need to do various flat ground cruising speeds?

Top speed on motor only?

Acceleration?

How is it pedaling with the motor off and the added weight it provides?

Has the custom air intake added a noticeable amount of drag and if so, how much?

What about the specs of the electric drive system? Pack size? Voltage? Peak motor kW?

Chain size? Cogs/gearing? Crankarms? Tires?

This is a very interesting build. The Milan is the most efficient 3-wheeled platform that can currently be bought for building an electric vehicle from. It won't take much for it to go fast or far.

Mine is in progress, the electric conversion part of which is on hold due to lack of finances, but here's videos of me riding the first prototype around(no motor installed, all pedaling):

https://vimeo.com/284616898

https://vimeo.com/284616919

With that shell I could reach a top speed of 35 mph on flat ground, cruise at 21 mph on flat ground for hours at a time, and in the 2nd video above reached about 40 mph going downhill. It's been up to 51 mph downhill on a steeper hill. The gas shocks up front really help with stability and cornering(thanks to the wider track, the camber, and the suspension effect they provide), as it currently corners like a car, while this same trike is nearly unridable over 20 mph without the suspension.

In the next few days I'll be posting a drawing of my next and currently in progress body shell that should be significantly more streamlined than the first prototype. Perhaps not on the level of a Milan(I don't have access to a wind tunnel), but it should be significantly more efficient than my first design iteration, and if I'm lucky, may be comparable to a Quest or WAW.

My goal when I convert it to electric is for it to be a pedal assist using torque sensing, a total vehicle weight of under 100 lbs, enclosed for rain/winter riding, functional lights/signals/gauges, the ability to charge a laptop computer or electric lantern or other household/camping items, a 1-1.5 kWh pack, acceleration from 0-30 mph in under 5 seconds, less than 10 wh/mi energy consumption at 30 mph with 100W rider pedal input, a top speed of over 50 mph, similar in speed to a normal pedal-only velomobile with the electric drive disabled, and the ability to carry food/water/clothes/camping gear/computer/tools/spare tires/tubes all in the trunk.

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Apr 28 2019 5:57pm

Motor: currently a stock '250W' Bafang SWXH 26"/36V version with 9-speed 11-32t freewheel and Shimano 105 derailleur.
Cranks: Patterson Metropolis 2-speed crank drive with 36t chain wheel (58t in overdrive). It allows me to pedal up to its 75km/h top speed at about 120 rpm. The Teflon chain tubes are sleeved with CFK-tubes to keep them straight.
Tires: Schwalbe Shredda Evo 40-406 at the front and a Schwalbe Big Ben 50-559 at the rear (both are discontinued).
Brakes: 90mm Sturmey Archer drum brakes (with water cooling*) and a TRP Spire with 160mm disk at the rear wheel.
Lights: Highsider Dual Stream, Kellermann Bullet 1000: https://etrike.wordpress.com/2018/11/05 ... -the-milan

Image

Batteries: two 10s/10p Sony Konion US18650V3 connected in series (72V/22Ah nominal). Charger: two Statiator 48V/8A
The Phaserunner is set to 15A, 40A phase current and 10A field weakening. Max power is restricted to 1kW.
CAv3 with throttle, PAS, etc. Usually set to 600W max.

Acceleration is slow...ish. Consumption at 37mph is about 8-9Wh/mile (I think). I finished it only last Monday and while I rode 584km since then, haven't tested the real world consumption yet. On most rides I went through the city and the stop and go really takes a toll on average consumption. On the other hand, even at the moderate and shortish downhill stretches in my area, the Milan easily goes beyond 50mph by its self.
Lets say, the light system (with headlight and fan) consume 20W and on a 100mile ride on country roads at around 37mph, account for roughly 10% of the overall battery consumption. ;)

*https://etrike.wordpress.com/2018/08/13 ... rum-brakes

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Tommm » Apr 28 2019 6:31pm

Does it have suspension?

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Apr 28 2019 7:45pm

Tommm wrote:
Apr 28 2019 6:31pm
Does it have suspension?
Yes. Its fully suspended.
All Milan velomobiles have front suspension, but you can order them with or without rear suspension.
I've changed the suspension from springs and friction damping to elastomere and kept it fairly stiff, though.
Also, to eliminate the fairly strong brake steer, I've altered the steering geometry, since it got tank steering.

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by The Toecutter » Apr 28 2019 9:35pm

Marc S. wrote:
Apr 28 2019 5:57pm
The Phaserunner is set to 15A, 40A phase current and 10A field weakening. Max power is restricted to 1kW.
CAv3 with throttle, PAS, etc. Usually set to 600W max.
Is the PAS using a torque sensor or is it using a cadence sensor for its feedback?

What kind of power draw is the battery delivering to maintain top speed(since it seems to be gearing limited)?
Acceleration is slow...ish. Consumption at 37mph is about 8-9Wh/mile (I think).
That's close to the equivalent of 4,000 miles per gallon! Awesome.
I finished it only last Monday and while I rode 584km since then, haven't tested the real world consumption yet.
I eagerly await this figure. What a beautiful machine you have there. It's unfortunate cars aren't built with a similar design philosophy in mind.

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Apr 29 2019 4:44am

Its a simple cadence sensor. If I want a workout and put more force to the pedals, adding assist power as well seemed wrong to me.

On the other hand (since the magnets for the cadence sensor are mounted into the chain ring) by shifting down and raising the cadence for climbing hills, or by shifting the Patterson Metropolis into its 2. gear (1:1.6 overdrive) for higher speed, the faster spinning chain ring also raises the assist power. This behavior is configurable by the Cycle Analyst and adjustable on-the-fly with the analogAUX pot. If I need more power (climbing, starting from a standstill) it has a throttle as well. I got the same setup in my trikes and it feels pretty natural.

Power draw at top speed (flat, smooth tarmac, quick tires, with hood) is around 300W electrical (including 20W for the lights). It seems like, I add about a moderate, but sustainable 120W by pedaling... (my fitness level isn't that great at the moment).
Räderwerk stated, an aerodynamically tricked-out Milan GT Mk2 with hood has a Cwa value of 0.0368: http://mission-milan.de/techspec.htm

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by wturber » Apr 29 2019 8:20am

Marc S. wrote:
Apr 29 2019 4:44am
Its a simple cadence sensor. If I want a workout and put more force to the pedals, adding assist power as well seemed wrong to me.
As a practical matter, I'd think that this would depend a LOT on how much power gets added. Tuned well, I could see how torques sensing could work nicely.
Marc S. wrote:
Apr 29 2019 4:44am

On the other hand (since the magnets for the cadence sensor are mounted into the chain ring) by shifting down and raising the cadence for climbing hills, or by shifting the Patterson Metropolis into its 2. gear (1:1.6 overdrive) for higher speed, the faster spinning chain ring also raises the assist power. This behavior is configurable by the Cycle Analyst and adjustable on-the-fly with the analogAUX pot. If I need more power (climbing, starting from a standstill) it has a throttle as well. I got the same setup in my trikes and it feels pretty natural.
Cadence sensor works fine for me as well on my standard e-bike. But I don't have it attempting torque simulation. It seems to act as a simple onn/off switch and I select any of five power levels as fits the situation. I can also always kick in full power by twisting the throttle. So I pedal to pretty much whatever effort fits my mood/need and use different assist levels to fit how fast I want to go vs. how much battery power I want to spend.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by The Toecutter » Apr 29 2019 9:10am

Marc S. wrote:
Apr 29 2019 4:44am
Its a simple cadence sensor. If I want a workout and put more force to the pedals, adding assist power as well seemed wrong to me.

On the other hand (since the magnets for the cadence sensor are mounted into the chain ring) by shifting down and raising the cadence for climbing hills, or by shifting the Patterson Metropolis into its 2. gear (1:1.6 overdrive) for higher speed, the faster spinning chain ring also raises the assist power. This behavior is configurable by the Cycle Analyst and adjustable on-the-fly with the analogAUX pot. If I need more power (climbing, starting from a standstill) it has a throttle as well. I got the same setup in my trikes and it feels pretty natural.

Power draw at top speed (flat, smooth tarmac, quick tires, with hood) is around 300W electrical (including 20W for the lights). It seems like, I add about a moderate, but sustainable 120W by pedaling... (my fitness level isn't that great at the moment).
Räderwerk stated, an aerodynamically tricked-out Milan GT Mk2 with hood has a Cwa value of 0.0368: http://mission-milan.de/techspec.htm
Thanks for sharing this information on your build. Post some video sometime if you take any. The efficiency of it is astounding and with regard to both efficiency and range it well exceeds my own goals for my build. With a 120W pedal input, you could be looking at a real-world 250+ mile range on your 1.5 kWh pack.

I also am willing to bet that your conversion is around 100 lbs for the whole vehicle.

You could give a slight 1-2 percentage point reduction to energy consumption by installing wheel discs to cover your spokes. For a vehicle such as this, I think it would be worth it.

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Apr 29 2019 9:55am

The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 9:10am
With a 120W pedal input, you could be looking at a real-world 250+ mile range on your 1.5 kWh pack.
Impressive, isn't it? On my first ride after the conversion, I could hardly believe the low consumption figures.
Even setting everything to max and riding through the city with frequently starting from traffic lights, it only consumes 1/3 of my trike.
The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 9:10am
I also am willing to bet that your conversion is around 100 lbs for the whole vehicle.
About 86 lbs with hood (without battery, tools, etc) and except for the small hub motor, didn't even tried to make it particularly light weight. Its an older, heavy, glas version that already weights 70.5 lbs as a pure cycle. The current carbon version starts at 55 lbs.

With a single 10 lbs battery and without stripping down the heavy 4.5 lbs tool bag (3 spare tubes, Lyzine mini floor pump, several wrenches, etc) it might just get above the 100 lbs mark.
The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 9:10am
You could give a slight 1-2 percentage point reduction to energy consumption by installing wheel discs to cover your spokes. For a vehicle such as this, I think it would be worth it.
I've tried disk wheel covers on my trike a couple of years ago. The downsides (a pain to inflate the tires, even bigger pain to lock it to something, greatly reduced cooling of the drum brakes) aren't worth the small efficiency improvement. Not by a long shot.
On top of that, I've tried them in the stormy season. Lets say, your commute gets real interesting when every side gust tries to blow you into the oncoming traffic. Worst, exactly a year later I've tried them again together with a nose fairing. It was seat wetting. :mrgreen:

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by The Toecutter » Apr 29 2019 12:45pm

Marc S. wrote:
Apr 29 2019 9:55am
Impressive, isn't it? On my first ride after the conversion, I could hardly believe the low consumption figures.
It is. I remember no shortage of people telling me that the low consumption figures or range I was looking for couldn't be done in a sub 100 lb vehicle. You've gone and done even better than what I was proposing.

You could not have chosen a more efficient platform to use, and it is doubtful anyone with a hobbyist budget could build a more efficient platform. The Milan can also do 100 km/h on roughly 750W.

Yours has got to be my favorite build ever shown on ES.
I've tried disk wheel covers on my trike a couple of years ago. The downsides (a pain to inflate the tires, even bigger pain to lock it to something, greatly reduced cooling of the drum brakes) aren't worth the small efficiency improvement. Not by a long shot.
There are discs that have notches carved in for inflating tires. I even made one for one of my rear wheel discs and inflating my rear tire was simple and easy as a result.

Does anyone make water-cooled drum brakes? That may be your answer, and could provide benefits even if you don't use wheel discs.
On top of that, I've tried them in the stormy season. Lets say, your commute gets real interesting when every side gust tries to blow you into the oncoming traffic. Worst, exactly a year later I've tried them again together with a nose fairing. It was seat wetting. :mrgreen:
The way the wind impacts an unshelled trike and the way it impacts the Milan are going to be totally different. Aerodynamics is funny like that. The only way you'd know the impact of strong crosswinds on the operating dynamics Milan with wheel discs would be to try them. They'll either make it unstable or they won't.(I'm guessing that when you said "trike", you were referring to another vehicle besides your 3-wheeled Milan because you mentioned a nose fairing; if you've already tried them on the Milan then you know they won't work to your liking)

My trike, with a faring and without, suffered no instability from crosswinds when adding wheel discs. I used to live in Corpus Christi, which was one of the windiest cities in the U.S. I also had a 39" front wheel track, which is far wider than that of the Milan.

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by Marc S. » Apr 29 2019 4:20pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:45pm
It is. I remember no shortage of people telling me that the low consumption figures or range I was looking for couldn't be done in a sub 100 lb vehicle. You've gone and done even better than what I was proposing.
....
You could not have chosen a more efficient platform to use, and it is doubtful anyone with a hobbyist budget could build a more efficient platform. The Milan can also do 100 km/h on roughly 750W.
Starting with an old Milan is kind of cheating, don't you think? :D

The Milan needs about 750W mechanical power to reach 100km/h. Realistically, thats at least 1kW electrical power at 80% hub motor efficiency. My guess, at these high rpm the little Bafang is a good deal less efficient (eddy current losses and what not) and the hub motor has to spin fast enough to provide enough power at 100km/h.
My other 20"/36V Bafang SWXH did about 106km/h with 15A field weakening on the test stand, so I'm pretty sure it won't spin fast enough on the road. We'll see. ;)

First, I need a lot more seat time in the Milan before I'll even think about attempting to reach that speed. Even at 60km/h the shock wave from oncoming trucks on narrow country roads is impressive! At 100km/h it'll blow me right off the street.
The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:45pm
There are discs that have notches carved in for inflating tires. I even made one for one of my rear wheel discs and inflating my rear tire was simple and easy as a result.
My wheel disks have notches for the valves on the inside disk. Still, its a pain.
With the low shell of the Milan, there is even less space. I'm currently using the 20" front wheel set with 32 spokes, since the other wheel set with 36 spokes leave not enough space between the spokes and the shell to put the pump head of my SKS Rennkompressor on the valve and lock it. I need a smaller pump head. :roll:
The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:45pm
Does anyone make water-cooled drum brakes? That may be your answer, and could provide benefits even if you don't use wheel discs.
Water cooled drum brakes are already installed. ;)
You only need to drill a well placed hole into the drum brake plates, cut a thread and screw-in a 90°hydraulic nipple with M5 thread, a small tank and a pump. https://etrike.wordpress.com/2018/08/13 ... rum-brakes

Image
The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:45pm
The way the wind impacts an unshelled trike and the way it impacts the Milan are going to be totally different. Aerodynamics is funny like that. The only way you'd know the impact of strong crosswinds on the operating dynamics Milan with wheel discs would be to try them. They'll either make it unstable or they won't.(I'm guessing that when you said "trike", you were referring to another vehicle besides your 3-wheeled Milan because you mentioned a nose fairing; if you've already tried them on the Milan then you know they won't work to your liking)
I used the disks shortly on this ICE Sprint with DD hub motor, 20s battery and 50A controller, to commute in the 'windy season':

Image

The wheel disks would most likely have no ill effect in side winds with the Milan. Still, the small benefits don't outweigh their huge inconvenience.
The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 29 2019 12:45pm
My trike, with a faring and without, suffered no instability from crosswinds when adding wheel discs. I used to live in Corpus Christi, which was one of the windiest cities in the U.S. I also had a 39" front wheel track, which is far wider than that of the Milan.
I live near the North Sea shore. We usually have a few Cat 1 and Cat 2 cyclones (we call them Orkan) in Autumn and Winter.
Thats what I meant with 'windy season'. ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_windstorm

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Re: Show me your electric velomobile.

Post by The Toecutter » May 01 2019 12:34am

Marc S. wrote:
Apr 29 2019 4:20pm

Starting with an old Milan is kind of cheating, don't you think? :D
Nah. Most of the world's best hot rod builders can make some very fast cars, yet they know nothing about aerodynamics and it is never even a thought nor is efficiency a concern to them, even though the possibility exists for them to get the same performance for less than 1/4 the horsepower at greatly reduced costs. They just don't see it.

The fact that you actually chose a chassis with efficiency in mind puts your design ahead of the majority of the ebikes out there. You're getting something around 8-10 times as much range per pound of battery as a result. A lot of people, even on this website, who know a lot about the ebike technology available and who know how to put a high performance ebike together that is safe to operate, would think that what you just did is impossible.

If I had the money to justify the purchase, I'd have started with an old Milan back in 2014, instead of having built up 2 trikes already(and never having the money to justify the electric drives yet).

I'm wondering how a DF After 7 would compare to the Milan in terms of coast down testing. Too bad that Daniel Finn's personal DF After 7 was stolen, because just such a test was scheduled.

With a modern carbon Milan and enough money, one could build a stout steel frame plus roll cage to insert into it to allow the velomobile shell to handle car-like torque without ripping apart, go to moped rims with solar race car tires on all 3 wheels, throw in a HubMonster(if one could find one, as they're out of production), and go with a less energy dense, smaller, but immensely more powerful battery pack and throw 25 kW to the motor, and they could put together something that gets like 80 miles range at 60 mph, does 0-60 mph in around 4 seconds, and tops out at whatever it's geared for(given the Milan's narrow track, one probably wouldn't want to do much over 60 mph, but a properly designed vehicle could safely do 100+ mph that is built to similar aerodynamics and weight specs). AND the whole bike could be kept under 100 lbs, AND be able to be pedaled with the motor off.

A lot of talented builders, happy with their monster packs getting them 80-100 mile ranges at 30 mph on bikes that can't really be pedaled worth a damn if the battery runs dead, just don't understand what they are ignoring and giving up by neglecting aerodynamics. Your Milan is proof of that, in abundance.

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