CUT OUT ON POWER cyclone 650watt lifepo 36v 20ah new

hello,
i am new to e biking and have invested a fair bit of money into a recumbent cycle to try to help me with my back problem as i cannot ride a upright as i am over weight,
i have just managed to get my kit sorted finally after quite along time sorting parts and fixing onto bike.
my first lipo test was today with all the propper parts which i was recommended . i bought the 24volt 36 volt kit from cyclone.tw who recommended me this kit to be ran at 36 volts to get about 1000 watts power. as i asked him for a kit which would pull me about my hilly area as i am heavy but i wanted some respecatable runtimes also so i feel this was a good compromise.
now, i ran the bike on some used 17ah lead acid batterys for a while before my lifepo batery came as i bought it on ebay and took over 1 month too arive, i bought it from jimmmy ....,

ive read the forums on this guy, seems ok guy to me , well i gave him the benefit of the doubt as i do not know much about them as i am new.
but the lead acid batterys had hardly any runtime at all, i could barly reach end of road to shop with out them going flat , this was after cycling them a little also.
so anyway ,
once my new lifepo's arrived i carried onto locate them with padding inside a spare pannier box, after a thorough check and patient install putting a switch and inline fuse in buying water proof panier boxes and such , i set off. but as soon as i hit the throttle i get a little acceleration then it cuts out, absolutely no power! i have to wait a little while and disconnect the power and reconnect then it works again but repeats itself, this was after me charging the cell all morning , i would have left it longer but the charger kept clicking on off , on off all morning green red so on so on.( now i have the lipo charging all night incase i got it wrong with the charge, but as it stands it looks fully charged as the green light is on solid) this is the new lifo po cell which has voltage of 38.4 on the sticker and 20 ah . the battery is about 13 " x 4" x 5" roughly , i think it is wise to mention the size as i have no reference to what size a 10 or 20 ah battery shuold be. as i understand the cells inside are smaller than the normal ones and are bunched in series and parallel to make up runtime and voltage.

the bike ran futher on lead acid but still quite useless. the motor kit is brand new and so is the battery so it is hard for me to tell what is faulty here ?
oh i nearly forgot i ran the bike initialy on SLA 24 volt only with better results althogh it did cut out after a few mins which i put down to bad/ old cells, i have much much larger car batterys to try out as a process of ilimination in a attempt to fault find.
fingers crossed someone out there can enlighten me on this situation.
i heard it could be a faulty hal sensor, but idont know what that is other than a component that would be to do with teh esc, ( electronic speed controller)

love to get some feedback soon.

many thanks.

rob.

From your description it sound as though your BMS (battery management system)is tripping on your lifepo4 pack. Usually they are limited to roughly 35 amps. Do you have a watts up / cycle analayst? If it is working with the lead then it is very likely the BMS is the culprit.

thanks for the responce, what is a whats up cycle analyist ? so the bmi may be at fault. lets hope it doesnt take 40 days to receive another one..

Johnbear said:

From your description it sound as though your BMS (battery management system)is tripping on your lifepo4 pack. Usually they are limited to roughly 35 amps. Do you have a watts up / cycle analayst? If it is working with the lead then it is very likely the BMS is the culprit.

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so can i take off the bms circuit and run the bike without it as a way of fault finding also, i have little instruction to as what i can do with the battery.
i presumed initially that without the balancer /voltage protector it wouldnt power out at all.
i live in UK and its raining quite alot here lets hope it clears up as i am keep to test and get to the bottom of my problem.

it looks like i may have to strip the batery and rewire with better lower resistance wire later anyway as it has poor cable on it, i want decent runtimes so i could do with pointers for that, maybe i should take it apart and upload picture of due process so other people can advise me on a propper job. as i have a basic knowledge of electronics and have no internal comprehension of how things work. ie i cannot do maths or equasions !
but ask me a bout spirituality or sociololgy... i can cope there.

Sadly, there have been several other posts with problems with the Jimmywu battery. In some cases the bms has failed. Running without it can cause cells to be damaged permanently. Lifepo4 does have a break in period during which the charger will cycle on and off a lot, so if you are lucky you just had some low cells, and once the pack gets better balanced you will see some improvement. The bms was working to balance the pack, and it was cutting out before the battery could get damaged, so it may be working normal. It may have just been less charged than you think. The bms will trip if just a portion of the cells are too undercharged. These packs seem to arrive very poorly tested and with unbalanced cells so TLC is vital in the first few rides. Unfortunately the customer doesn't know that! The way the pack is made with many cells can lead to problems since a fwe cells can be overdischarged and damaged even before the bms cuts out. This is basicly just because there are so many of them that the bms may not detect it till several cells get low. The cells in your pack seem to be less forgiving than prismatic cells that are larger so I would be very careful how far you discharge the battery in the future. A good lifepo4 battery of 36v 20 ah sise should be able to handle a 650 watt motor. But if for some reason you are using 40 amps, then you would have a problem with any vendors 20 ah battery. A meter to measure amps is real convenient, but expensive. The power the motor uses can be calculated if you know how long it took to drain the lead batteries, and how long the charger took to charge them back.

Also you need a voltmeter, should be pretty inexpensive, to check the voltage of the battery and the chargers output. If the battery voltage is not what it should be, some of the cells are not working, or the charger is undercharging the pack. Somewhere in the battery section there is a post with the expectec voltage for your pack. I know it is less than the Pings, but I can't remember exactly what it was. It should definitely be at least the 38v on the label, or a few volts higher when the pack is full charged. The sise of the pack sounds about right, I'ts too big for a 10 ah.

wow thats awsome, thank for the full explanation and prior warning . you are a gent!
yes i feel i should not attempt to run the batery at all without BMS in order to discharge and recharge , so my cells are sleepy and the motor is thirsty. i must find a neishe so i can coax them out of that coma!

so ineed a volt and amp meter preferably then i can run the bike around with a manual / visual indication on the batterys level.
sounds about right to me.

one thing that strikes a chord is how do i cycle my battery if i cannot discharge it on my bike?

i have thought about leaving it on over night without running any power through the motor.

perhaps a hour on low power /tickover throtle with wheels off the ground thena recharge tomoroow. please advise incase it needs to run underload as i am unaware of details and how the electronics runs.

which do you think this is the best idea? will bms work once it gets low voltage?

my friend has a volt meter and is a electronics engineer who mentioned bringing a amp tester home from work.

i will see tomorrow what he has on his mind abotut the darn thing.


p.s, this is as nice forum , it seems many are happy to help out and i appreciate that.

You definately need a volt meter. I too have a JimmyWu battery (36 volt 10 ah). The BMS will cut off the battery at about 38.4 volts. Perhaps your battery is at that level which is why it cuts off. If it is, you have problems right off the bat with a bad battery from Jimmy. Full charge of the battery if it is 100% good should be about 41.8 volts. The charger should put out about 42.3 volts during the floating stage and about 44.5 +-/ during the big charge stage.

R2R2 said:

You definately need a volt meter. I too have a JimmyWu battery (36 volt 10 ah). The BMS will cut off the battery at about 38.4 volts. Perhaps your battery is at that level which is why it cuts off. If it is, you have problems right off the bat with a bad battery from Jimmy. Full charge of the battery if it is 100% good should be about 41.8 volts. The charger should put out about 42.3 volts during the floating stage and about 44.5 +-/ during the big charge stage.

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ok thanks, should i leave it on charge ovrer night ? it was on untill now. i dont want to wake up with the house on fire. i do not know how long it is meant too take too charge( i think its a\3\amp chrgr) or if it sits on greenlight for a along time then if its meant to jump to charge mode for a few seconds then back repeatably.
no instructions other than this is the batery wire. that is the charge light. blah blah ..

leaving the charger on all night is it going to push the few already fully charged active cells past the point of no return and cause a chemical collapse rederring individual cells unusable and or increase the internal resistance causing major issues ?

im off to bed soon , someone pleaase answer back soon.

LIFEPO4 batteries won't catch on fire, even if they are overcharged. You can damage the cells though if they take too much charge-they puff up and smell REALLY bad.

This is assuming there isn't a problem with your pack: I have had a few friends with different brands of LIFEPO4 batteries have an issue where the BMS was cutting out under heavy load, but ran fine under normal use. They ended up keeping the charging BMS intact, but bypassed the output BMS. Since the controller also has undervolt protection, its pretty safe to do this. Sam at Yesa told me that drawing more than 2C out of the cells won't do any real long term damage, but it will lower the AH rating a bit on that particular charge. Your 20AH battery may perform like a 15AH one. The full AH rating will return once you charge the pack again. Of course, if you try it and break something.......

Internethope, sorry to hear about your problems. Two thoughts:
1. Since you say you are heavy, are you trying to start uphill without pedaling? If so, try again on the flat and pedal some until you are going at least 5mph.
2. There have been some reports of Cyclone motors being damaged by the ingress of water. If you went out in the wet this could be your problem. In which case, you could dry out the motor (fan heater perhaps) and try again.

paultrafalgar said:

Internethope, sorry to hear about your problems. Two thoughts:
1. Since you say you are heavy, are you trying to start uphill without pedaling? If so, try again on the flat and pedal some until you are going at least 5mph.
2. There have been some reports of Cyclone motors being damaged by the ingress of water. If you went out in the wet this could be your problem. In which case, you could dry out the motor (fan heater perhaps) and try again.

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the bike has sat outside when its started to rain and i have put it away, last night the shed roof felt flew off on a down poar. i fixed it this morning .
ive been load testing it today. the speed controller draws about 55 amp if i run on flat with no pedeeling from a dead start and this is when it cuts out at the bms, probably the bms i should say. it was fairly ok at 40 - 45 amps. i have tested battery voltages and will do a update later after my dinner.

many thanks to all who show interst .

If you can put an amp meter on the motor while it runs, even with no load, that may be able to answer some questions. Anything that causes too much amps can be a problem that causes the lifepo4 bms to trip. On the cyclone kits, just being in too high a gear can do that, I didn't think about that yesterday. Even with the motor, you need to start out in a low gear. If you haven't read the Jimmywu threads in the battery section, there is info there you need to know.

Lucky you , that seems like a reasonable performance for any vendors lithium battery. But no 20 ah duct tape ebay lifepo4 battery can handle a lot of voltage spikes in that amp range. So finding a way to draw less power seems to be where you need to go. You may end up having to replace the kit with a lower powered one, or find a way to get the controller to lower the power to the motor you have. But the good news is there is nothing abnormal about your battery, that is great.

Another option could be to sell the battery to somebody, and get Ping to make you a larger battery, with a higher amp BMS. And do try lower gearing, and look for any suspect connections that could cause a lot of resistance, or too thin wiring.

dogman said:

If you can put an amp meter on the motor while it runs, even with no load, that may be able to answer some questions. Anything that causes too much amps can be a problem that causes the lifepo4 bms to trip. On the cyclone kits, just being in too high a gear can do that, I didn't think about that yesterday. Even with the motor, you need to start out in a low gear. If you haven't read the Jimmywu threads in the battery section, there is info there you need to know.

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we tried the amp meter on the wire coming off the battery to the speed controller, i sat on the bike held the brakes on and gave it some throttle it read 16 amps.

3 amps free wheeling / no load.

i taped the meter to the bike and tried to ride it the same way as before when it cut out. i rode off peddling and minimal throttle and it was ok with reading of 22 amps.
so i turned round and raun from dead start no peddle giving it full throttle after 2 3 seconds and it drew 55 amps and cut out.

the speed controller is rated at 24 volt and 30 amps, i was told fine from the supplier to use it with a 36 volt battery with it and that it would be ok giving me more power for my hilly area and weight.

the battery is a jimy wu 36volt 20ah , ive voltage tested it fuly charged and it was 42.168 volts.

not tested the charger yet . but ihave the cycle running off the lipo now with no load as the wheel is off the ground at 3rd throttle so i can cycle the battery without straining it .

lets hope the bms works on the low voltage drop cut off.

So basicly you just need to learn a few nuances for riding your bike and you are OK? That is how it sounds to me. On my bike I get the same thing from dead stops if I am not carefull, but it's my controller tripping not my battery. Lower gear and more peadling and you may be able to cruise ok. I find I have to peadle to start uphill, but can do a no peadle start if I ease into it instead of just pegging the throttle. Unlike gas machines, electric likes less throttle off the line.

If that doesn't work, then maybe the jimmy battery can't handle the bike, even though it should. The cells in that pack are not as good as those in a Ping battery and may be getting enough voltage drop when you draw on em hard to be tripping the low voltage cutoff, instead of the too many amps cutoff. I hope you can still use what you have, since there is so much money sunk into it. The batterys do break in, so maybe it will improve just a tiny bit. I suspect that first ride was with a pretty low charge. You may be able to solve the problem by eventually buying more battery and running them both in parallel connection, easing the load on each one.

Oh, by the way, you don't have to cycle the battery all the way to cutoff to break it in. Just cycle it enough to get the charger to start up again. I'ts more a matter of gettting all the cells topped off and balancing the pack. All you really need is to get the bms to do the turning the charger on and off thing some more.

dogman said:

So basicly you just need to learn a few nuances for riding your bike and you are OK? That is how it sounds to me. On my bike I get the same thing from dead stops if I am not carefull, but it's my controller tripping not my battery. Lower gear and more peadling and you may be able to cruise ok. I find I have to peadle to start uphill, but can do a no peadle start if I ease into it instead of just pegging the throttle. Unlike gas machines, electric likes less throttle off the line.

If that doesn't work, then maybe the jimmy battery can't handle the bike, even though it should. The cells in that pack are not as good as those in a Ping battery and may be getting enough voltage drop when you draw on em hard to be tripping the low voltage cutoff, instead of the too many amps cutoff. I hope you can still use what you have, since there is so much money sunk into it. The batterys do break in, so maybe it will improve just a tiny bit. I suspect that first ride was with a pretty low charge. You may be able to solve the problem by eventually buying more battery and running them both in parallel connection, easing the load on each one.

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well put,
i think it is so that i need too feather the throttle on take offs. any clues on sourcing a volt and amp display for my bike so i have a visual reference.

also where abouts is the thread for jimmy wu batterys as i understand it there are other in the same boat.

Basicly two, Watts up, not sure where to get one, and the Cycleanalyst, get that from ebikesca. They are great to have, but I have got by ok without one. I did have to learn to drive an ev the harder way though. folks that have em, say they really help with learning to ride more effieciently and get better range. I just ride full throttle all the way myself.

you should read the eastchinamusic, jimmy wu thread that sacman started. i think there is a class action lawsuit forming up here. his BMS fabrication is totaly inadequate, i don't think he even tests the BMS and i think he has chosen the output fets and maybe other parts based on how cheap they are, i even wonder if his output fets really even have a semiconductor inside, just a lump of coal.

amazing so many people have the same problems with his BMS and nobody is able to get negative stuff onto ebay. i think ebay should be held liable for allowing him to artificially boost his score while susppressing all the failures he is responsible for.

and i was the one counseling patience with him initially. now i think everyone with his battery packs should attempt to force ebay to refund their money so they can buy one from mr ping, who at least will respond to buyers needs.

I don't know how many battaries jummywu66 sold and how many peaple have problems.
I can just tell from my experience that after I fixed the design (see my posts) I have no problems with the battery.
Yes, the actual capacity is about 15Ah instead of 20Ah claimed with my heavy application (up to 50Amps continuously), but BMS was working from the begining and charger going into floating stage when current is getting below 500mA.

And I think (and hope), most of his batteries are good.

I don't protect him and don't like his business attitude, just saying.

dnmun said:

you should read the eastchinamusic, jimmy wu thread that sacman started. i think there is a class action lawsuit forming up here. his BMS fabrication is totaly inadequate, i don't think he even tests the BMS and i think he has chosen the output fets and maybe other parts based on how cheap they are, i even wonder if his output fets really even have a semiconductor inside, just a lump of coal.

amazing so many people have the same problems with his BMS and nobody is able to get negative stuff onto ebay. i think ebay should be held liable for allowing him to artificially boost his score while susppressing all the failures he is responsible for.

and i was the one counseling patience with him initially. now i think everyone with his battery packs should attempt to force ebay to refund their money so they can buy one from mr ping, who at least will respond to buyers needs.

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so if i approach ping bateries and ask for a BMS from him, will he obligue and is it a smart move. as from what i can gather about what you are saying is that the bms will not help my batery live for very long.

is it true ?

regards and thanks for your coments

dogman said:

So basicly you just need to learn a few nuances for riding your bike and you are OK? That is how it sounds to me. On my bike I get the same thing from dead stops if I am not carefull, but it's my controller tripping not my battery. Lower gear and more peadling and you may be able to cruise ok. I find I have to peadle to start uphill, but can do a no peadle start if I ease into it instead of just pegging the throttle. Unlike gas machines, electric likes less throttle off the line.

If that doesn't work, then maybe the jimmy battery can't handle the bike, even though it should. The cells in that pack are not as good as those in a Ping battery and may be getting enough voltage drop when you draw on em hard to be tripping the low voltage cutoff, instead of the too many amps cutoff. I hope you can still use what you have, since there is so much money sunk into it. The batterys do break in, so maybe it will improve just a tiny bit. I suspect that first ride was with a pretty low charge. You may be able to solve the problem by eventually buying more battery and running them both in parallel connection, easing the load on each one.

Click to expand...

to be honest i dont know if it is the bms or the controller. (although it seems to point at the bms from quite a few people suggestions) it did used to cut out when i ran 2 12 volt sla batteries after a short while which indicated it was down too low power in cells. i put that down too them being not maintained and unused / neglected . i have 2 much bigger lead acid bateries to try but my pannier bracket has splin in half so i need to get a decent alloy part fabricated up soon, ile go bigger gauge this time as before i managed to find cast alloy which was pants clearly.
im just lucky it didnt fail miles away from home, very lucky.

EVERYBODYS GREAT ON THIS FORUM SO MUCH GOOD WILL AND INTENT many thanks to all .

I think the problem is that all Cyclone controllers seem to have "real" current limits of 55A, not the 30-35A that is marked on the label. I have the 1000W motor/kit, with a controller rated for 35A, and it will max out at 55A. That makes my "1000W" really about 2700W, with my 16s6p 48V/13.8Ah a123 pack. I'm guessing you are trying to pull close to 1400W. In any case, these inexpensive, "Ping-like" packs are probably only good to about 2C, at best, which will be about 40A. With your setup, you are trying to pull 55A, which is why the BMS is cutting out. It is actually doing its job.

What you need to do is either take it easy with the loads, or you can get a CA from Justin, and use the current limit feature to keep the loads from every getting above the point that the BMS cuts out. The other choice, although not cheap, is to replace the pack with somethig better, or at least with more capacity. You would need about 30Ah in order to not trip the BMS, assuming the same type of packs. One of the newer Ping packs might be a better option, as they now have higher C ratings. A 20Ah "v2" Ping pack should be able to handle 55A, I think.

-- Gary

GGoodrum said:

I think the problem is that all Cyclone controllers seem to have "real" current limits of 55A, not the 30-35A that is marked on the label. I have the 1000W motor/kit, with a controller rated for 35A, and it will max out at 55A. That makes my "1000W" really about 2700W, with my 16s6p 48V/13.8Ah a123 pack. I'm guessing you are trying to pull close to 1400W. In any case, these inexpensive, "Ping-like" packs are probably only good to about 2C, at best, which will be about 40A. With your setup, you are trying to pull 55A, which is why the BMS is cutting out. It is actually doing its job.

What you need to do is either take it easy with the loads, or you can get a CA from Justin, and use the current limit feature to keep the loads from every getting above the point that the BMS cuts out. The other choice, although not cheap, is to replace the pack with somethig better, or at least with more capacity. You would need about 30Ah in order to not trip the BMS, assuming the same type of packs. One of the newer Ping packs might be a better option, as they now have higher C ratings. A 20Ah "v2" Ping pack should be able to handle 55A, I think.

-- Gary

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thanks gary, i think the limiter is my best option. maybe later when batteries comedown in price then ile rebuy another and reuse the current one on perhaps a 300 watt motor or something.

many thanks.

p.s who is justin ? can you put me intouch perhaps.

internethope said:

thanks gary, i think the limiter is my best option. maybe later when batteries comedown in price then ile rebuy another and reuse the current one on perhaps a 300 watt motor or something.

many thanks.

p.s who is justin ? can you put me intouch perhaps.

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