Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

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Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by StudEbiker » May 18, 2015 11:35 pm

Well it's hard to believe, but it's been four years since I built an e-bike for myself.

Of course I've been tuning and modifying my current ride during that time and even completely reconfigured the drive system, but it's time to get my hands dirty again and build what I hope will be the best e-bike I've ever built.

It's no secret that I am a fan of Bike Es for conversion candidates to e-bikes. I use my current one regularly and absolutely love it. There are only a couple of complaints that I have with it.

First, there is no rear suspension and you can really notice it on bumps & holes. Lately I've been running my tires at the lowest pressure I can and that helps a lot, but not as much as I think a good rear shock would.

The only other complaint I guess I have about it is that my current Bike E looks pretty weathered and old. Also, because of some of the things I've done to it since I've made it electric there are a few holes here and there in the frame that don't really belong there. It never really bothered me as this bike was given to me for free and wasn't in great shape to begin with. I learned a TON on this bike. I've since converted two other Bike Es to electric, one for my fiancee' and one for a friend. All three of them were the non-suspension CT models of the Bike E.

For awhile now, I've been on the look out for a rear suspension model of the Bike E (designation AT), but I was pretty specific about the one that I wanted. I wanted it in silver (because that's my favorite color for bikes), I wanted the taller "sweet seat" that was an option on some Bike Es, I wanted an XL frame (it has a four inch longer wheel base which puts more weight between the wheels and leaves more room on the frame for putting "stuff", and I wanted one of the earlier models that didn't have the tail end cut off because I need a place to put a battery or at least a good rear bag.

Around the beginning of this month I really started getting serious about trying to find one. I started looking on a Craigslist aggregator site and started looking for Bike Es within a 1000 miles of where I am. The first time I did that search, I found the exact model and specifications I was looking for 400 miles away in Olympia, WA.

After contacting the seller to confirm that the Bike E was an XL I definitely wanted the bike, but I didn't want to have to go to Olympia to pick it up and the seller had no interest in delivering it to me. He did seem pretty open to some negotiating though. After posting on E-S looking for someone near Olympia to help me pack the bike up, dnmun suggested I check the Craigslist rideshare for someone traveling the I-5 from Seattle to some point south of me and see if they would bring the bike to me. This seemed like it could have some trust issues associated with the plan, but I decided to give it a shot.

Sure enough, I found someone with a large van traveling from Seattle to the Bay and they were willing to pick up the bike and bring it to me. Now I needed to figure out how I could trust the guy with the van to actually bring it to me after he picked it up and how to pay the seller. The seller of the bike was an elderly gentleman with no Paypal account or any interest in getting one and I didn't want to pay the high wire transfer fees. Finally the seller was just like, "Put a check in the mail, I trust you." Keep in mind there was no way he would get the check before the "guy in the van" would be picking up the bike. :wink:

I was able to explain to the van guy that there were some concerns about trust. The seller was also concerned that if the van guy took off with the bike, I would cancel my check. This was getting complicated. :roll: Finally the van guy said he would pay the seller for part of the bike in cash when he picked it up and I could reimburse him and pay him his delivery fee when he delivered the bike. His share in the bike still wasn't what the bike was worth, but it made everybody feel better about the deal that he was willing to put out some cash upfront.

Well, it took a week of phone calls, texts, e-mails, and a fair bit of stress, but the bike arrived safely.
BIKEEAT.jpg
BIKEEAT.jpg (121.96 KiB) Viewed 6119 times
Now that I have it, the question is, "What do I do with it?"

I have been mostly happy with the performance of the 8T Mac that I have on my current Bike E, but there are a couple of hills around here that I still have to work pretty hard to get up. Maybe I should go 48V with the MAC instead of the 36V I'm running now. I like keeping the max speed around the legal e-bike speed so I might need to go with a slower wind if I go that route. Then I wonder if I've really gained anything. I don't know. All my previous bikes have been 36V.

I would love to put a Bafang drive on it with a Nuvinci N360 in the rear, but I don't think there is going to be a good way to make the Bafang work with the Bike Es bottom bracket. Maybe I'm wrong though. Thoughts?

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by amberwolf » May 19, 2015 12:32 am

StudEbiker wrote:I would love to put a Bafang drive on it with a Nuvinci N360 in the rear, but I don't think there is going to be a good way to make the Bafang work with the Bike Es bottom bracket. Maybe I'm wrong though. Thoughts?
Well, one "obvious" way would be to bolt on a BB from another bike, one that does fit the Bafang drive, then run a chain from a ring on that BB to the ring on your existing BB.

If I were to try that, I'd use a steel bike frame for the BB source, cut it off along with some of the seattube and downtube, whatever is necessary to mount the Bafang plus a little bit, and weld that to a plate or partial box that will fit over the Bike-E's frame, and clamp that to teh frame (clamping around it rather than bolting thru it, if possible).

It would not be as neat as directly putting the Bafang on the existing BB, but it would be neater than some other options I can think of.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 19, 2015 12:52 am

For those small wheels, i would say that a bafang BPM would be super ideal.. it has half the poles of a MAC.. get a high speed winding version and dump some volts into it.. :) it'll be a torque monster.. :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 20, 2015 12:56 am

Great to see you got an AT model StudEbiker. I sympathise with all that you've said about the comfort levels and the need for the rear suspension. My next step is to get a 20x2.3" tire and run it at 35PSI :!:
I currently run a 20x2.1" at 40PSI and that's ok, but still quite unsettling over the really rough stuff.
StudEbiker wrote:I have been mostly happy with the performance of the 8T Mac that I have on my current Bike E, but there are a couple of hills around here that I still have to work pretty hard to get up. Maybe I should go 48V with the MAC instead of the 36V I'm running now. I like keeping the max speed around the legal e-bike speed so I might need to go with a slower wind if I go that route. Then I wonder if I've really gained anything. I don't know. All my previous bikes have been 36V.

I would love to put a Bafang drive on it with a Nuvinci N360 in the rear, but I don't think there is going to be a good way to make the Bafang work with the Bike Es bottom bracket. Maybe I'm wrong though. Thoughts?
I would highly recommend the Golden Motor DD I've been running on my Bike-E
Image

Yes you loose the hub gears, however there are other way's around that...
Image

With a DD hub you also get Regen. I love my Regen...it's the best brake on my bike, and the extra range it give's while not much, does make a difference on my 50+km commute each day.

Cheers
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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 20, 2015 1:39 am

Oh, if you're going with a DD, don't bother with that old ~80% efficient motor, get a new ~90% efficient Leafmotor or 9C.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 20, 2015 2:18 am

neptronix wrote:Oh, if you're going with a DD, don't bother with that old ~80% efficient motor, get a new ~90% efficient Leafmotor or 9C.
^^What he said. :)
Actually, if I could do it again, I would seriously consider one of the smaller, lighter DD hubs like the new (ish) Crystalyte NSM 13 motors as hauling around the 5Kg in my rear wheel like I currently do, sucks...on the other hand, it does give me some good thermal head room for the summer months.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by dogman dan » May 20, 2015 5:54 am

48v on what you have ought to do the trick. 25% more power can make a big difference. But yeah, if you did want to go to 60-72v, then it's time for DD.

Nice bike, I've been musing about building a bent with a rear suspension. Or modifying the one I have.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 22, 2015 10:12 pm

Higher efficiency gives you big thermal headroom.. going from 80% efficiency to 90% efficiency cuts your waste heat ( in watts ) IN HALF.. that's a huge difference, is it not?

That's why i've gotten away with running ~3000w constant on my 1500w rated leafmotor for such long periods of time.. until it reached 80 degrees Fahrenheit out here anyway.. now i can do that for a total of 5 miles now :cry: :lol:
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by amberwolf » May 22, 2015 10:33 pm

Sorry about wasting the space in the thread with my previous suggestions, I guess I was confused by the reference to the bottom bracket; I thought you were looking to add a middrive, not a hubmotor. :?

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by StudEbiker » May 22, 2015 10:42 pm

If I could install the Bafang drive the way it is meant to be installed I would definitely be interested in doing that. My previous experience with DIY mid-drive left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth so I don't want to venture back down that road again anytime soon. :oops:

I'm going to see if I can find a 48V battery to test my current setup with and if I like that, I'll probably just go with another MAC motor and 48V battery.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 23, 2015 12:17 am

Mid drive also left a very sour taste in my mouth as well. And my knees.. ( thanks, 10mm pedal offset )

A MAC isn't advisable for such a small wheel due to it's insane eRPM.. some controllers literally can't run it at decent speeds in a 16-20" wheel.
Also.. not as efficient to have a motor so many poles spinning per RPM..

That's why i recommended the Bafang BPM.. half the poles. Some people have had incredible results with it in a small wheel.

But the most efficient option would be, for sure, one of the new ~90% efficient DDs.

You know me, i used to be the MAC daddy.. i was part of the reason that the motor became popularized here..
But once you go high efficiency DD and see your range and power increase significantly for the same power inputted.. and gaining the ability to scale massive hills for 2-4 times more without worry of overheating.. there's no going back to geared unless you're a weight weenie :]
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 23, 2015 5:12 am

neptronix wrote:But the most efficient option would be, for sure, one of the new ~90% efficient DDs.
Totally agree, however I'm not sure I know which DD hubbies your talking about...
Could you list some of the lower power DD hubs your thinking of?

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 23, 2015 12:30 pm

Leafmotor 750w, 1000w, and 1500w units.
New 9C 28mm and 30mm motors.
MXUS 'v2' 3000w rated motor.
Cromotor v3+.

All these motors have the thinner 0.35mm laminations, which is a major part of their high efficiency.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by StudEbiker » May 23, 2015 2:22 pm

Neptronix, did you see my earlier post asking if the BPM2 motor in the link has the same pole count as the BPM?

That leaf motor seems very fast at 48v. I don't want to go faster than 21-22mph. I could speed limit via the CA though and still get the improved performance of 48v up to the limit though. Hmmm, you may be convincing me to go back to DD. :)

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 23, 2015 2:45 pm

Sorry, i missed that. But i don't have an answer. I doubt that they re-engineered the motor for the bpm2 though. I can't find a single picture of a higher pole count version out there when i search.

For your small wheel, you could get a leafmotor and ask for a 6 turn version of their 750w ( 28mm? ) or 1000w ( 30mm ) wide motor. For a 20" wheel at 48v, you're looking for around 350rpm, according to the ebikes.ca simulator:
2015-05-23 12_43_06-Motor Simulator - Tools.png
2015-05-23 12_43_06-Motor Simulator - Tools.png (75.04 KiB) Viewed 55 times
The 7 turn new 30mm wide 9C is pictured above.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 24, 2015 6:44 am

neptronix wrote:Leafmotor 750w, 1000w, and 1500w units.
New 9C 28mm and 30mm motors.
MXUS 'v2' 3000w rated motor.
Cromotor v3+.

All these motors have the thinner 0.35mm laminations, which is a major part of their high efficiency.
:oops: I must be blind...I can't seem to find these 90%+ efficient motors anywhere.
I searched here:
http://www.9continent.com/products_show.asp?id=100
And here...
http://www.leafmotor.com/hub-motor.html

Can you post a link?

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by neptronix » May 24, 2015 1:32 pm

The newer 9C motors are not 90% efficient exactly, but they're more efficient than what they've been producing for many years.
Yeah, 9C's website doesn't list them. Refer to ebikes.ca for those.

On ebikes.ca, they also tested the MXUS 45mm stator motor recently and reported how surprised they were by it's efficiency. I'd put that motor in the 90% efficient class as well.

The leafbike site will alternately show you the old graph, a graph from the wrong motor etc. depending on the listing. Here are some accurate listings for the newer motors:
http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike ... l-991.html
http://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-bi ... t-987.html

I've compiled a bunch of info on the leafmotor ( including graphs ) here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=66489

I did a watts per speed test here on my 1500w motor:



I'd imagine that the smaller 1000w motor performs similarly.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 24, 2015 7:43 pm

Thanks neptronix.

Sorry for temporarily hijacking your thread Studebiker...i'll get off now. :)

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by ohzee » Jul 18, 2015 11:01 pm

Reading your threads with a new passion Studebiker.

Finally found one of these for a price I did not mind paying 225.

It's in really good shape. I don't think it was used much or they just attached the bikee bag to it as it seems un used.

I am not crazy about the steering tho or maybe not used to it yet. I love the way it feels when I get up to speed especially the position.

The tires are dry rot so looking into options now. Looked like you got some hookworms figure someone in your thread you will say how you like em.

Anyway thanks for all the info gonna get back at reading and try to decide what I wanna do with it.
bikee_es.jpg

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Alan B » Jul 19, 2015 1:05 am

I've heard a wider handlebar improves the control feeling, but I have not tried it.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by ohzee » Jul 19, 2015 6:27 am

Alan B wrote:I've heard a wider handlebar improves the control feeling, but I have not tried it.
Thanks Alan. I was considering that. Figured id ride it a week before making any decisions.

Was reading your posts last night as well very helpful.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Alan B » Jul 19, 2015 9:10 am

Thanks. I haven't worked with my BikeE lately, but I plan to get back to it very soon. I have some Multistars to try on it and want to improve the setup.

It is good to see what other folks are doing with their BikeEs. There's some discussion on Facebook as well, that's where I saw comments about changing the handlebars. It reportedly improves the control confidence, but folks with long experience say it isn't necessary.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by ohzee » Jul 19, 2015 9:50 am

I added myself to that group last night and was impressed with how much info there is and how passionate the bikee owners are.

Whoever named that bike sure picked a name that makes it hard to look up. I know it was long ago and maybe even before sales on the web
were a big deal. Still it's a pita searching lol.

I liked the idea of putting batteries in the frame. If I do electrify this I want minimal assistance as it's a nice way to get excercise that does
not seem to hurt my bad knee as bad.

I love your greyborg. Your whole thread there is just dropping with great info.

Ok off for a 30 mile ride on my phasor. low 90's here today gonna see how she does.

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Re: Studebiker's Next (last?) Bike E.........

Post by Alan B » Jul 19, 2015 11:17 am

Perhaps we should arrange a group project / buy for a custom pack to slide into the BikeE frame. I suspect www.batteryspace.com could fabricate one for us, and they are local here. The biggest problem will be drilling out and remounting the rear wheel support "fork", but the metalwork with threaded holes and battery pack could work together and slide into the frame and be anchored by bolts supporting the rear wheel "fork" arms (not great terminology). I wonder how many people would be interested in such a project. I've looked at lipo fits a time or two and the density wasn't good enough, but 18650's are a good fit for the frame's cross section. Or just get a welder and make a fully custom pack oneself.

I've got enough projects in the fire right now, but might be worth considering at some point.

Sorry to invade Studebiker's thread, great BikeE work going on here.

I would have to add that in these small wheels the BMC V4S has been very efficient on 12S 44V, and retains the pedal-ability and superior gliding of a non powered BikeE rather than the mushy gliding and lossy pedaling of a DD hub. I've only run the BMC at 750W so far but the battery usage is very low and it feels great, and it is a California legal Class II ebike if you set the controller for 20. The DD motor at the same power would not climb as well or glide as well at this power level. I do miss regen, but the gliding feels great, and the bike is much lighter, and the geared hub nearly disappears behind the gear cluster. With a small battery or especially with an in-frame battery pack a geared motor BikeE can be especially stealthy. Everything is a trade, unfortunately.

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