PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

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PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by onemorejoltwarden » May 30 2015 11:08am

typesofebikes.jpg
typesofebikes.jpg (59.82 KiB) Viewed 2047 times
I have been looking for information on PAS set up, switching and control.
I found some nice links on Pedelecs in general that were very good in demonstrating the criteria of need
and have a great outline of ebike types
Does Product Design Affect the Acceptance and Success of Pedelecs
and E-Bikes http://pedelec.com/taipei/lectures/pdf/ ... design.pdf
and
http://www.mobile2020.eu/fileadmin/pres ... bljana.pdf

though no system specifics, they are great reads

I need some information on 5 speed and torque sensor PAS switching, as alI the ones I have found have this done though a complex proprietary display
and it seems that the only generic alternative to that is the CycleAnalst.
3 speed PAS seem pretty straight forward, and true torque sensors still a black box to me.

Before I make that jump, I wanted to just get what they are doing better laid out.

Any tips or pointers to resources on PAS set ups or design would be much appreciated

thanks
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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by amberwolf » May 30 2015 2:58pm

There's at least two threads where I tried to help people understand PAS options, but I don't have links to them. Probably if you either use the google site search for PAS and my username, or search with ES search and display by topic (rather than post) using pedal and torque or similar, you might find those. I can't remember all teh terms used, but the ES search doesn't usually find three-letter-acronyms. :(


Spinningmagnets has been making a sticky thread index for each subsection, so if you find those threads you can also send him links to include them.

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by onemorejoltwarden » Jun 01 2015 9:42pm

Thanks, AW
I searched your posts and found:
Difference between a throttle and a PAS system?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62395

which is a great thread
I liked the older discussion from Prodeco's folks about safety issues with PAS and CC and unintended starts
I too need the boost from start you mention, not for knees as much as clearing intersections
The PAS systems in controllers shouldn't be like a box of chocolates
but at least I am getting to know what to look for, and what goes with what.
"One more jolt, Warden, he's still twitching."

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by d8veh » Jun 02 2015 5:22am

In the UK, we nearly all use PAS systems. Assuming that you want to assemble a kit rather than buy an OEM bike, it's very straightforward as long as you buy a modern controller with LCD. There's loads of different systems. Some use current control, some use speed control and some use either or both together. You can get torque control systems too. In the past, and still with old design controllers, there's usually a noticeable delay between pedalling and getting power, but modern ones are nearly instant.

What is it exactly that you want to know?

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by TheBeastie » Jun 02 2015 5:56am

onemorejoltwarden wrote: Does Product Design Affect the Acceptance and Success of Pedelecs
and E-Bikes http://pedelec.com/taipei/lectures/pdf/ ... design.pdf


I need some information on 5 speed and torque sensor PAS switching, as alI the ones I have found have this done though a complex proprietary display

Any tips or pointers to resources on PAS set ups or design would be much appreciated
I like how that PDF starts off..
Where Will Design for Pedelecs and E-Bikes Go?
• E-Bikes will drop their pedals!
• E-Bikes will become electric scooter-like vehicles!

Definitely seems this is true, I have to say I am an advocate of PAS only builds, the more videos I see people riding ebikes the more I have noticed the pedals are just somewhere they rest their feet and there isn't even the remotest hint of the idea of trying to pedal.

New York after fully banning ebikes, have made a new law where if its PAS / pedal-assist and throttle-less ebike (general euro standard) then its OK.

New York City allows e-bikes, as long as there’s no throttle
https://e-bikerumor.com/2018/04/08/new- ... -throttle/
New York City to allow pedal-assist e-bikes, bans throttled bikes
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry ... xIjGJ8zaCo

I think this is the future, I can't understand why the old original "200w/throttle" ebike standard is still allowed in so many states or continued to be a sellable type of ebike, it should have been phased out years ago, so the only standard is the newer PAS only based Euro EN 15194 standard.

The latest video I watched was on the whole Storm bike fiasco, I noticed even reviewer also never pedals, this ebike has ended up being very popular despite the fact they elected to not even bother putting on a basic PAS sensor which is like an extra $1 USD if you look at China prices... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2y8adn-hCY
*EDIT* The final release of the Storm/Sonders ebike did get a PAS sensor installed but I believe is unplugged? Well done anyway..
Seems fair to say that ebikes (throttle only) are just bicycles by proxy.

I changed to PAS only setup on my most recent bike for a bunch of reasons,
  • Firstly, without a handlebar-throttle you can much more quickly grab your brake levers, in fact you can much more easily have your fingers on the brake levers all the time, so its overall a safer ride, by a significant amount.
Also there are a few other good reasons to ditch handlebar throttles,
  • I have lost count how many times cars used to see me coming and pull out in front of me when I had thumb throttle because they would underestimate my speed and also assume I was slowing down because my legs are not moving which is a recipe for disaster on a long enough time frame.
  • Having only PAS means you don't look lame/fat and lazy. There are a bunch of threads on here where folk are complaining about ebike haters giving them crap and we all secretly know its because they look fat and lazy just using the thumb throttle to get around.
  • Also, you save having to change your handlebar setup by removing/adding grips etc and you also save handlebar space freeing it up for more lights etc.
If your ebike is quite powerful you can just fully dry pedal, so you are still putting in zero effort and letting the ebike motor do all the work.
I've been doing this a fair bit lately and I still find it way more practical than a handlebar throttle.

There are tons of motorcycle accidents on youtube where someone was showing off etc and loses control of the bike because the throttle is where they hold the bike, its the same spot, and its a crappy problem-riddled way of having to control bikes, with bicycles we have the option of avoiding all that through PAS.

I think what happened in New York where ebikes were totally banned to the point where if they even find one locked up at a premise the council will issue a fine for the ebike to the premises is a glimpse into the future.

It's only a natural this path is taken over a long enough timeline where you have masses of folk annoying other masses of folk.

I understand to some who haven't seen ebikes all over the streets causing carnage like I have you probably see me as an evil betrayer of ebikes, but I am saying all this for its greater good as it won't last like it is forever when truly huge masses of people take this up, I already see a fairly constant stream of negative media in Australia about ebikes now.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94312

Newer controllers support PAS really well and they are no more expensive than older generation controllers. They come with LCD displays and easy to install buttons to allow different assist level adjustments. And of course there is the Cycle Analyst
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... D_JP2h1N1g


There must be a million videos on youtube where people lose control of their bikes due to throttles, here is another one, on a long enough timeline I can't help but see it go down like this where everyone including complete morons have really high powered bikes.



What PAS sensors etc look like
Attachments
Free-Shipping-36V-48V-E-bike-250W-350W-Controller-LCD3-display-PAS-Set-for-E-bike.jpg_350x350.jpg
typical style LCD display for modern PAS Pedelec compatible ebike
Free-Shipping-36V-48V-E-bike-250W-350W-Controller-LCD3-display-PAS-Set-for-E-bike.jpg_350x350.jpg (28.69 KiB) Viewed 5351 times
ten-poles-pas-pulse-padel-assistant-sensor-ebike-kit.jpg
10 pole PAS sensor
ten-poles-pas-pulse-padel-assistant-sensor-ebike-kit.jpg (24.26 KiB) Viewed 5351 times
Last edited by TheBeastie on Jun 02 2018 12:18am, edited 31 times in total.
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Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by amberwolf » Jun 02 2015 2:38pm

TheBeastie wrote:I changed to PAS only setup on my most recent bike for a bunch of reasons, firstly if you don't have to have any fingers or hand setup on a throttle you can much quicker grab your brake levers, in fact you can easiler have your fingers on the brake levers all the time, so its over all a safer ride.
That entirely depends on how your bars are setup.

On mine, either CrazyBike2 or SB Cruiser, I never have to take my fingers off the brake levers, on either side, and I have two thumb throttles on each bike, one on each side (for independent control of each powered wheel). I also have independent brake control of EABS (SBC) / regen (CB2) vs mechanical brakes.

It's setup that way to give me maximum instant control over exactly what the bike is doing, for the safest control in traffic--where sometimes braking is not the right answer, and would get me run over or cause someone else to have a collision as they try to avoid me, and instead just a little burst of power to accelerate out of the way of someone changing lanes into the spot I was already occupying.

Most of the time I don't have to worry about any of that...but when I do, I *really* do.



Can't argue about the rest of your points. :)

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by onemorejoltwarden » Jun 10 2015 5:46pm

Sorry to be a bit late in response.
I have a traditional straight pedelec that has only PAS with a five magnet ring.
This gives a very delayed response to power.

I recently had a lot of problems with a YESCOM setup that had very poor instructions with it's PAS\CC,
(pics on my yescom install thread) that
Required a lot of trial and error to try to to determine its function, mostly working backwards.
Its controller failed before I was able to get it completely deciphered.
It was,uh,vexatious given to unpredictable action.
My hunch is that all I really needed was a decent switching system with better indicators for its five-speed PAS

In trying to better adjust my systems, I became aware of the broad range of variability in their configuration,
and how hard it was to simply describe a how a system performed both from the rider's side
and from the nature of the controller design and vendor.

I'm trying to simply get the terms clarified concerning their switching and power application profiles.
1) nature of the PAS sensor signal: path (wire),Voltage
2) simple off/on , cadence or torque sensing signal
3) Control inputs: level/speed/"gear"(term used by vendors)setting, by path(wire)or ICC or pulsed signal
4) Controller output : on/off, variable or proportional voltage or current control
5) Controller output profile : timing, square wave or sloped
6) interaction of. PAS with throttle and CC

My initial reading has led me to believe that controllers will have many of these features
configured by either their native design, onboard jumpering, controller input, or by external programming.
The CA threads helped me here

The vendors make it very difficult to understand how they are set up and what parts are comparable.
With many vendors selling only individual parts of the system this is been very confusing for me

My three speed PAS is a bit rough to use, but it may be preferable to the increasing complexity required by the 5speed PAS
systems or a programmable system like the LYEN or CA.

I'm a little bit concerned about the accessibility of parts to support many of the LCD displays needed for the five-speed systems.
I haven't been able to find anyone who has mentioned a well matched PAS/controller system from a single vendor, which may be a good approach to this

I hope I haven't belabored this overmuch,
but I'm really just looking for a smooth application of power that doesn't occur in an unpredictable fashion.
Hopefully one that has either very generic parts or support in some fashion.

I really like the pedal assist strategies, and suspect some of the control questions that I've had
may be some of the issues that have affected their popularity.

Thanks to all
Last edited by onemorejoltwarden on Jun 10 2015 9:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
"One more jolt, Warden, he's still twitching."

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by amberwolf » Jun 10 2015 6:10pm

onemorejoltwarden wrote: I haven't been able to find anyone who has mentioned a well matched system from a single vendor,
I don't know how well-suited it is to your application, but you might look up my Fusin 1000w (peak) geared hub review thread; it's a complete 7-level PAS/throttle system with everyhing except a battery. (Fusinmotors may also sell those, couldn't give any opinions though). Personally I don't like it but I gather it's behaviors are typical for common PAS kits, at least of that type.

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by keithmac » Aug 19 2016 7:50am

Both my bikes are PAS only and I wouldn't contemplate a throttle on either.

The Gtech is crank movement sensor, 1/8th to 1/4 turn to set off and hub motor stops as soon as you stop pedalling.

My Carrera with TSDZ2 is torque sensing, the harder to push the pedal the more assistance you get.

Both are bike like to ride, electric assist rather than electric moped..

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by Robocog » Oct 22 2017 12:39pm

I have a throttle, I have 1200 watt min. I have a 42 tooth sprocket.

You don't JUSt go all PAS. First, I reprogrammed for 9 levels, on Bafang HD. Then, I went with 42 tooth sprocket. This allows a reasonable cadence up to 25 max on this system. I could go 48 tooth, and get say 32 mph max cruise, and thus eat battery and crash REAL HARD. So, I am deciding to go with 42, and live with a top pedaled speed of 26, maybe 28. I never use my throttle. It saves components, saves batt, I still am quicker than most cars off the line up to say 15 mph.

With pas 3, I use 11 amps max, pas 2 6 amps. pas 1 I use maybe 3 or 4. This SIPS battery. STOPS heating of anything. I slack when I shift, and even 3 pas, it is gentle enough for longevity. Also, I have a custom cushy suspension, and the pas lessens pedal induced stiffening of rear.

I never stand on the pedals, so I use a seat that needs you in a SINGLE spot. I don't pedal hard, so I use a MINI pedal , very light. Regular shoes.

I go 26 mph regularly, but wouldn't get a ticket absolutely, as I am always pedaling. Using pas, I will never be harassed for too much power. Nor hated on trails and paths.

I am almost silent. So, have a bell.

PLUS all the reasons YOU gave for pas only.

To add, almost no voltage drop. I use a mid length cage derail. I have no brake cutoff, and a slow response, but a slight backpedal, and instant cutoff. And, max pas 3, my brakes are far good enough to overcome pas3.

So, it is really safe, as I am in motion, so noticed always, not like throttling. I am not going thirty, but 25, so much safer. PAS is not just nanny state EU crapola, there are really good reasons why not to throttle, EVEN if you have one.

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by d8veh » Oct 23 2017 4:03am

To summarise, there are good PAS systems and bad ones. The bad ones have a noticeable delay in starting and stopping that comes from the controller software. They also use speed control, where each PAS level is a target speed. The good ones have no delay and use current control, where each PAS level is a different power/max current.

Kunteng (KT) are good controllers.

It makes little difference which type of sensor you have - 5, 8, 10, 12 magnets or torque sensor. It's the software in the controller that makes the difference.

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by Robocog » Nov 05 2017 12:44pm

I don't mind the slow response. I hardly notice anymore. But, anything over four setting, and it would not be able to allow you to add power.

I feel guilty every time I slam the throttle. IT pegs 30 amps.

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by wturber » Nov 06 2017 4:32am

I don't understand why anybody cares whether someone else pedals on their e-bike or not.

I just got the PAS working on my e-bike, and the PAS system can be configured so that you are essentially faux-pedaling, turning your cranks into a rather silly notion of a throttle and not actually implementing pedal assist. I don't see what good such a system accomplishes.
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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by marvak » Nov 06 2017 6:02am

Its fun. I would like to have system working almost somewhat like downhill biking. I figure it would be great fun for urban biking.

So you would pedal pedal and somehow wound up the throttle, so it would continue to provide power even when you stop pedaling for a while. Could also work for longer flat roads, where you could continue to pedal as you please, but could also stop and continue to get the same power

There are lots of instances where you see a long section of road ahead of you, you pedal hard to get desired speed, then cruise at that speed until you brake

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by marvak » Nov 06 2017 1:11pm

Thinking abojt my idea, first think one would need is proper electric switch to cut the power on the brake lever, and maybe some progressive regen braking when further squeezed

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by wturber » Nov 08 2017 4:08pm

marvak wrote:Its fun. I would like to have system working almost somewhat like downhill biking. I figure it would be great fun for urban biking.

So you would pedal pedal and somehow wound up the throttle, so it would continue to provide power even when you stop pedaling for a while. Could also work for longer flat roads, where you could continue to pedal as you please, but could also stop and continue to get the same power

There are lots of instances where you see a long section of road ahead of you, you pedal hard to get desired speed, then cruise at that speed until you brake
... or you could just twist your hand throttle a bit once you are up to speed.
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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by amberwolf » Nov 09 2017 12:57am

Or use a controller that supports cruise control. ;)

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by motomech » Nov 09 2017 1:07am

wturber wrote:I don't understand why anybody cares whether someone else pedals on their e-bike or not.

I just got the PAS working on my e-bike, and the PAS system can be configured so that you are essentially faux-pedaling, turning your cranks into a rather silly notion of a throttle and not actually implementing pedal assist. I don't see what good such a system accomplishes.
I resisted PAS at first,...until I tried it.
It's benefits are many;
1) many folks use their ebikes for exercise.
2)it's a better option for throttle hand relief than cruise control.
3)it can warm one's body when it's chilly.
4)it can extend range and, on a low-power system, speed.
5)it lends itself to stealthy operation when it's desired.

I don't remember anyone who has a 20 to 25 mph bike that has come on here and said, "Yeah, I tried PAS and didn't like it".
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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by amberwolf » Nov 09 2017 3:45am

I did, for the Fusin "1000w" kit, but not because of PAS specifically, just because of that controller's implementation of it--it had an inherent delay in both starting and shutting off that couldn't be changed, that made it dangerous to use in traffic, especially at the higher PAS levels.

I'd get completely full power (of whatever level it was set to via buttons on the display) but not until a second had gone by, and at that point my body was already pushing the bike on it's own, and then suddenly the bike would launch itself in what felt uncontrollable, because even if I stopped pedalling, it'd keep going at full power. Then the instinct to brake kicks in and the power cuts out right then and the braking stops me instead of just slowing the wild horses.

Riding it enough I got used to it but the only safe way in close traffic to control it was to disable the PAS and use throttle only. Otherwise a little accidental pedal movement would just launch me into a car in front of me, or worse into an intersection full of traffic.


Torque-sensor PAS, now that I like; it's like having bionic legs once you get it set the way you like it, as long as there is no startup delay and no shutdown delay, like a CA3-THUN (or similar) setup.

The delays and having to set a level via buttons rather than controlled by how hard I'm pedaling are what I don't like about that Fusin controller's PAS (I think it was actually made by LiShui).

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by d8veh » Nov 09 2017 7:03am

The KT controllers have really nice PAS function - instant response and current control on the levels. Some other controllers have diabolical PAS function. I wouldn't recommend PAS without at least three levels from an LCD or LED panel. I don't mean the type with a 3-speed switch. Some controllers without the panels make the PAS power proportional to cadence, which is absolutely the worst system you can get.

In summary, PAS is good, but you need the right controller.

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by wturber » Nov 09 2017 2:26pm

motomech wrote:
wturber wrote:I don't understand why anybody cares whether someone else pedals on their e-bike or not.

I just got the PAS working on my e-bike, and the PAS system can be configured so that you are essentially faux-pedaling, turning your cranks into a rather silly notion of a throttle and not actually implementing pedal assist. I don't see what good such a system accomplishes.
I resisted PAS at first,...until I tried it.
It's benefits are many;
1) many folks use their ebikes for exercise.
2)it's a better option for throttle hand relief than cruise control.
3)it can warm one's body when it's chilly.
4)it can extend range and, on a low-power system, speed.
5)it lends itself to stealthy operation when it's desired.

I don't remember anyone who has a 20 to 25 mph bike that has come on here and said, "Yeah, I tried PAS and didn't like it".
I understand the claimed benefits for PAS. My question was why anyone really cares if someone else doesn't want to pedal. More specifically I my intent was to refer to those folks who want to mandate PAS through law. That makes no sense to me ... even if you personally love and advocate PAS systems.

As to your five points ...

1) Using a manual throttle does not negate using an ebike for exercise. I've been doing that for two months now. Works fine.

2) I've been using a twist throttle and have zero problems with hand relief on my 16 mile commutes. Holding a throttle position is as simple as gripping a bar.

3) Pedaling with effort is what warms ones body. PAS system don't necessarily compel that. When I set my PAS system to "5", I end up putting almost zero effort into pedaling and end up with minimal warming effect.

4) Riding slower and pedaling more is what extends range. A PAS system may or may not help to do that. It all depends on how it is configured. I've used the most amps ever when pedaling home uphill using PAS only (KT controller system). My brain and a manual throttle are more efficient on a generally uphill route. My PAS might have an edge on generally downhill routes though. Time will tell.

5) Stealth? Who are we hiding from? LEOs? Why - because we are operating illegally? Isn't it better to advocate rational bike law than to be clever about skirting bad laws? Riding at 10 - 15mph is also stealthy - but it is not what I'm generally looking for from an e-bike.

I've tried PAS with this KT controller. I do like some aspects of it. But it is clearly insufficient for what I want. A torque sensing system might be better. But even then, I'd probably still want the ability to tweak its response on demand.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by marvak » Nov 09 2017 3:22pm

wturber wrote:
motomech wrote:
wturber wrote:I don't understand the claimed benefits for PAS. My question was why anyone really cares if someone else doesn't want to pedal. More specifically I my intent was to refer to those folks who want to mandate PAS through law. That makes no sense to me ... even if you personally love and advocate PAS systems.
Dude, am just claiming its fun for me, and can be made even better,
So thats all, just excited for the possibilities

Like Amberwold said, controller with cruise control, paired with torque sensor, could be awesome fun

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by Alan B » Nov 09 2017 5:28pm

Requiring pedaling causes riding precision to be reduced, especially at higher speeds. When you are riding on the rough pavement at say 28 mph, you may need to put the tire precisely to avoid the surface debris and imperfections, and pedaling causes a slight wobble that reduces riding accuracy. Throttles (at least good ones) are also more precise in power control than pedaling is, especially in rough conditions where a foot slips off a pedal or is jerked out of the clips to catch a fall, and the unbalanced pedal force causes undesirable acceleration. PAS should be an allowed feature, but not a requirement. The best situation might be a combination of the two, but the users and market should be allowed to develop this depending on the application.

It is partially what you get used to, and also partially the power level involved. At low power it hardly matters since the precision of control is not needed. But if you use PAS with a 1KW ebike (which was legal in California until the "new" law was passed which lowered it to 750W) then merely bumping the pedals (or the throttle) could launch the bike if you were not sitting on it. Either situation could be quite dangerous. A similar situation caused death on a Segway when it launched the user off a cliff.

Requiring a certain kind of control should not be part of the regulations, requiring it to be safe should be. Ebrakes, kill switches and throttle failure management should be required. Being able to control the ebike at very low speeds should be part of the equation, it will be operated among people at low speeds some of the time.

The only reason for making regulations is really safety. If they don't have a root in the safety of the system and the people using and being nearby then they have no business making the rule.

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wturber   10 MW

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by wturber » Nov 09 2017 7:06pm

marvak wrote:
wturber wrote:
motomech wrote:
wturber wrote:I don't understand the claimed benefits for PAS. My question was why anyone really cares if someone else doesn't want to pedal. More specifically I my intent was to refer to those folks who want to mandate PAS through law. That makes no sense to me ... even if you personally love and advocate PAS systems.
Dude, am just claiming its fun for me, and can be made even better,
So thats all, just excited for the possibilities

Like Amberwold said, controller with cruise control, paired with torque sensor, could be awesome fun
Please note I was responding to motomech's post, not yours.

I'm not against PAS. In fact, I just went to some trouble to get it working on my bike. I'm against unwarranted restrictions of choice. Simple throttles can be awesome fun too. :^)
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wturber   10 MW

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Re: PAS design/ pedelecs design / control question

Post by wturber » Nov 10 2017 1:56am

Alan B wrote:
Requiring a certain kind of control should not be part of the regulations, requiring it to be safe should be. Ebrakes, kill switches and throttle failure management should be required. Being able to control the ebike at very low speeds should be part of the equation, it will be operated among people at low speeds some of the time.

The only reason for making regulations is really safety. If they don't have a root in the safety of the system and the people using and being nearby then they have no business making the rule.
Yep. Those are pretty much my sentiments on this.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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