EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

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cell_man   100 kW

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EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by cell_man » Jul 21 2015 4:06am

Hi Guys,

I don't post on ES too much in recent times, but recently I saw a video and I had to come on here and put something out there. I'm not gonna name names, I'll let someone else figure that out.

It would seem by hearing certain companies speak, that they virtually invented the Bafang BBS02 kit and that their re-branded Bafang kit is significantly superior, in many ways to what all the other plebs are selling. Also, they invented the BBS02 extended BB, despite the fact Doug at http://www.california-ebike.com has been converting and selling these for well over a year and everyone that came after, blatantly ripped off his methods and design. Now the same people are supposedly going to be the only company that offer higher grade mosfets in the BBS02 and only they will be offering this, starting in August 2015.

Regarding certain re-branded kits, does anyone really believe that Bafang will supply a superior product to 1 buyer, but sell second rate products to others? Why would they possibly do that and risk comebacks from the vast majority of their customers? It is a pretty simple detail to add additional connectors to the loom, or make small changes, but basic fundamental stuff, i do not think so. Let me tell you something about the BBS02, there have been many changes made and they continue to be made. However, when those improvements are made, they are made at 1 time and everything with a later build date will almost certainly be the same later version. Bafang do not have versions, 1, 2, 3 and 4, only saving the later versions for those extra special customers. I am so tired of hearing all this misinformation about special versions this and that. If the build date is recent, it will almost certainly have all the latest versions of everything. There is a limited amount that can be done with the Controllerst software to change the basic software parameters. Yes it can affect how the kit reacts, but I am sorry, it has really been overstated by some, how making a few tweaks here and there is going to make really significant changes.

Now specifically regarding the new version Mosfets that only the re-braned Bafang kits will start to exclusively supply, starting August 2015. We buy a reasonable quantity of BBS02 and I was telling Bafang for over 1 year to try better fets in their controllers, even after they changed to 9 fets, things were not significantly improved. I suggested Bafang use the same IRFB3077 mosfets we use in our Infineon controllers and which are known by many to be a very good 75V mosfet. In late May 2015, we supplied 1000pcs of free issue IRFB3077 after Bafang agreed to try some controllers for us, built with these 3077 fets, just for us. Since then all our 48V 750W BBS02 kits and controllers have used genuine IRFB3077 fets in their construction. This can be proved by a simple fact, you do not have to take my word for it. These new version controllers that only EM3ev have been supplying since June, have a model number ending 206.1 (see the additional info copied below, this info is not valid for controllers supplied after the date of this post). The standard 48V 25A BBS02 controller ends 206. Bafang (unsurprisingly) found the new fets did help the controller run cooler and they were so happy with the results that they almost immediately decided to fit these same fets in all the future production, despite a significant additional cost, but they are a big Company and it has taken a little while to happen. I was asked not to publicize that we were using non-standard controllers and we respected that wish, i only told some trusted business customers of ours. I was a little unhappy that bafang decided to use the same fets for all their production, but not all surprised. We didn't get any refund for the fets we didn't use, each set of 9 fets cost us around 15USD per controller/kit, that was never added to the cost of the kits we sold. Bafang are in the process of changing all their 48V 25A controllers to use these 3077 fets, and i expect that any controllers built around this date or soon after, will use the 3077 fets. i am quite sure the number system applied to our Controllers will also be applied to future production, so look for the 206.1 and that should mean it has better quality fets.

Suppliers should keep it real IMPO. If you are a good local supplier, you have good service, you deal with the problems, people find your prices acceptable, you take a part from here, add it there, change things around a little. Well that is already cool, you are doing cool stuff, great. Why do people feel the need to stretch the truth, or try to spin everything so much, or just tell blatant lies. It is a shame that some of the more popular US resellers are so prone to this kind of activity. There is reasonable marketing and there is BS.

Peace
Paul, AKA Cell man

Edit:
the serial number info, is not as i stated above, the current info is this. The above info, is only the situation for those first controller we received, that were fitted with the 3077 fets, as supplied by us:

Here is a new controller fitted with 3077 fets (K5NCR0F0206, which were generally released around Aug. 2015):
Image

Here is an older controller (pre 3077, K5ECR0F0206, Mar 2015 build date):
Image
Last edited by cell_man on Feb 22 2016 4:08am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by neptronix » Jul 21 2015 4:34am

Dude, this is why i bought my first kit from you back in the day ( maybe just weeks after signing up here ) and became a MAC motor fanboy early on; because you knew your product and were upfront about everything and were, i assume, a major driving force in improving the MAC motors as far as they could be improved, at still half the price of a BMC. That was a killer app for my early ebiking days, when i was tepid about spending a lot of money on this new hobby.. i tip my virtual hat to you for also driving improvements in this common popular kit as well.

As for Mr. 'other seller' ( i'm pretty sure who you're talking about but don't want to dust up things in your thread ), when i got my BBS02 from you, i noticed that it put out more power at peak than their kit, which they were claiming was an exclusive and could only be bought from them for what, double the price you were asking.. funny that you never made a high power claim, yet your setup was already optimized for the maximum power that the BBS02 could manage. :mrgreen:

There are always hucksters in the reseller game, don't let their BS get you down and keep up what you are doing because you do it very well, and people recognize your efforts here for sure. Or at least i do :mrgreen:
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by 2old » Jul 21 2015 7:00am

Hi Paul,
I wish you posted more on ES since everything that you've written (that I've read) said a lot.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by KINNINVIEKID » Jul 21 2015 7:15am

Seconded. :mrgreen:
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by dogman dan » Jul 21 2015 10:46am

And there you have it, the reason I've typed "go to EM3ev" to noobs so many times. Paul, you are a right on dude. Always striving to improve the products you offer.

It's true, I type go to EM3ev less often now, since the company I work for, E bike kit, finally sells a 500w gear motor now. Call it a clone or whatever. I can't say if our motor is better. In fact I doubt it is better than a mac from EM3ev.

Our version of a 500w geared motor just serves a different kind of customer, who usually runs a lead 36v lead battery, and would never send money outside the USA. They need that hand holding I can give them to take the plunge.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by mchlpeel » Jul 21 2015 3:01pm

My personal opinion is this,

After a simple google search I came up with the following

High power cycles (no point in hiding it) have a massive history of over exaggerating and over pricing their products.
I feel sorry for anyone who falls in the trap of ordering one of their over priced kits.

On the other hand all I hear about Paul/cellman/em3ev is extremely good things. There are countless testimonials on this forum of your high quality work. I will be another of your customers in the next couple of weeks based on the testimonies I have read.

I shouldn't worry about companies like this as any customer with any sense wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.


PS. if this has nothing to do with HPC then sorry but they also make similar claims about their BBS02

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by rider95 » Jul 21 2015 9:18pm

I have bought from both EMV3 and HP and had a problem with my order from both of them and both made it right .

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by cell_man » Jul 22 2015 12:10am

I'm not referring to HPC, the video i recently watched was a review of another supplier that focuses on the BBS02. I am not criticizing the companies product or anything other that their tactics of exaggerating everything, claiming their product is so much superior to the standard product, and taking claim for things that they were not responsible for. The company does lots of cool stuff with the BBS02, and they seem to take care of their customers pretty well, good luck to them, just keep it a bit more real and go easy on the BS.

Fact, it was EM3ev that provided fets to Bafang to upgrade the fets in the 750W BBS02 kits they built for us. We have been supplying these fets to them since sometime in June 2015. Bafang will move over to IRFB3077 fets in the 750W BBS02, either very soon, or they already have, for all their production. The latest version of the 48V 25A BBS02 controllers with the IRFB3077 fets have a number ending 206.1 and I believe that will be the case for all future production. The .1 at the end denotes the fets used.

The controller with the standard fets, from July 2014:
standard.JPG
standard.JPG (55.42 KiB) Viewed 7238 times
The new controller with the IRFB3077 fets, built in June 2015:
with 3077 fets.JPG
with 3077 fets.JPG (44.62 KiB) Viewed 7238 times
UPDATED INFO, the above info is not valid for the current BBS02 controllers:

Here is a new controller fitted with 3077 fets (K5NCR0F0206, which were generally released around Aug. 2015):
Image

Here is an older controller (pre 3077, K5ECR0F0206, Mar 2015 build date):
Image
Last edited by cell_man on Feb 22 2016 4:21am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by LewTwo » Jul 22 2015 4:31am

cell_man wrote: The controller with the standard fets, from July 2014:
---Picture---

The new controller with the IRFB3077 fets, built in June 2015:
---Picture---
Now that is what I call clarity. Thank you.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by Triketech » Jul 22 2015 9:26am

Nice update.

I received a BBS02 & a MAC with Infineon from EM3EV in early July. The BBS02 has the dot 1 model and the Infineon has 3077 on it.

Will be playing with both of them over the next few months.

I chose EM3EV as a result of the customer satisfaction praise they've received. One of the reasons power assist has been slow to grow in the USA is we don't have many retailers with integrity, knowledge and inventory. It takes all three to be successful. All too often some businesses tend to think substitution of illusion for integrity is the secret to success, but that's a product of desperation. No one really likes to deal with desperate vendors.

Thanks for the heads-up Paul.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 22 2015 10:15am

I have a very good idea who the vendor in question is. I have not heard anything bad about the reliability of their products, or their customer service. In my humble opinion their exaggerated claims are because the customer base they serve has been doing some homework and finding they can get their second (or third?) kit cheaper from em3ev. They need to advertise some type of secret sauce in order to justify keeping their current price structure.

Competition is a good thing, and Paul is a competitor. Over the years, em3ev has expanded and diversified their catalog of components that they have made available to us, instead of insisting that you only need a burger, fries, and a soda. That's my two cents worth, feel free to disagree...

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by mark5 » Jul 22 2015 11:05am

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Bafang-8fun-Version-Controller/dp/B00LGC3QIY wrote: Electric bike Bafang 8fun Mid Drive crank motor 48V 750W BBS02 NEW Version Controller 1300W max out put

o This new Version has 16 mosfet on the motor and better high end 1300 watt power.
o Only Bu***tii has the 1300W max out put custom controller other sellers do not.
o Beware -- Other sellers do not have this new 16 Mos. controller. They have mistakenly listed here. Plus you get the New high power LCD settings already progrmmed.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2MYNOHTYKHJ8W wrote:(1 of 5 stars) This is a total scam. there is no 16 ..., February 10, 2015
By Amazon Customer
This review is from: Electric bike Bafang 8fun Mid Drive crank motor 48V 750W BBS02 NEW Version Controller 1300W max out put (Sports)
This is a total scam. there is no 16 fet controller made for this particular motor set up. In fact, if u look closely at the pics, you will see that this is designated as the 500W Bafang, not the 750W bafang.

Bu**tti is known for not honoring exchanges or their warrantee.

Their 52 v battery is nothing more than a standard Li battery.. all Li batteries have their fully charged voltage at 52 v or higher (ie 48 v is the resting or nominial voltage. fullly charged, they are 52-58 v, depending on their configuration).

Dont believe the nonsense positive reviews. The first one is simply a first time reveiwer.. probably done by the company itself.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by teklektik » Jul 22 2015 11:14am

spinningmagnets wrote:Over the years, em3ev has expanded and diversified their catalog of components...
Few new members realize that a few years ago running a big gear motor like a MAC or BMC was essentially impossible with an Infineon controller. Paul brought us the modded Infineons that work smoothly with both MAC and DD, battery packs with first quality cells/BMS and top notch construction, no-spark battery connectors, top quality triangle packs, Fat Bike gear motors, etc. - a long list. All with quality support.

Much of what some folks now consider as standard fare resulted from a lot of ongoing effort from Paul to develop products for us - not simply resell stock stuff. The post above goes directly to this: expending the time and effort to push improvements to the manufacturer which later become 'stock' design features. This is not a simple reseller who takes what he can get and differentiates his product with a different flavor of hype.

Beyond the quality of what is delivered, this ongoing effort to bring us cool new stuff is what gets my dollars.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by Ykick » Jul 22 2015 11:28am

A true gentleman and quality vendor has spoken. I totally agree, exaggerating specs and “claims” can only backfire and cause a lot of consumer grief across this baby industry.

Seriously, how many come and gone eBike brands have we called out for BS performance and range specs? It’s a shame because we ALL wanna see eBikes grow and succeed but not at the expense of physics and consumer integrity.

Look at the 1st posts in the now infamous Sondors’ fat bike thread and you’ll see many of us posting our disgust and anger about the misrepresentation of performance using the multi-kW bike on video. But once that crap stopped, many of us sat back and enjoyed an impressive thing happen.

Those of us that have traversed this path can help those who follow. The least we can do is offering something legit to counter a few predators looking to score a “mark” and make quick buck using BS claims.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by wesnewell » Jul 22 2015 11:55am

I'm only going to comment on the cost of the mosfets. There's only pennies difference in the cost of all of them, so there's no significant cost difference in the model you use. They all run about a buck each last I checked from a distributor depending on volume bought.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by dumbass » Jul 22 2015 12:59pm

Two years I bought my first 48v 750 Bafang mid-drive from a no-name outfit on EBay. What I got was some strange peace of crap that ran less the 2 blocks before going dead. It had a 20a controller on it but was also marked and sold as a 750w kit. I had nothing but problems with the seller. Being I was convinced I needed a new controller I contacted 3 well known sellers; California EBikes, em3ev and a seller that is now rebranding the Bafang mid-drive and other products. In each case I told them of my problem and asked if I could purchase a controller. Two of the suppliers responded immediately offering to assist in anyway they could (California EBike and em3ev) the 3rd. supplier (now rebranding the Bafang mid-drive and other products) never replied to my email nor to my phone messages. It was then I knew who wanted to make all future purchases from. I decide to work with Doug at California EBikes and have been happy ever since. I just received 2 more units from Doug and they are marked with the .1 identification. And there is no question in my mind California EBikes is almost certainly the innovator of the 100mm drive extension kit for fat bikes. All the rest are in my opinion just are "copy cats" even if they "rebrand" the name stamped on it. To me it's nothing more then a cheap stunt to bolster sales. But that's just my opinion.......and experience with them.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by Ade » Jul 22 2015 1:10pm

I've seen the E-rad video done by EBR that cellman is referring to obliquely - seems like most, if not everyone else, thinks he's talking about something else.

It's actually a cool look at an enhanced Bafang BBS product and clears up some confusion I've seen elsewhere here about lectric cycles gear shift sensor, how it fits to the BBS controller and the firmware control it uses - no, it doesn't use a brake port.

Not sure where the hate is coming from and as far as I can tell, lectric cycles is being genuine in their product description- perhaps they are mistaken about their fets being the only ones that are good but hey, sometimes people make mistakes. Lectric cycles even mention cellman and his batteries favorably over on an EBR thread that's related to the video.

Seems like there's a lot of needless dissing going on which is a little sad to see.
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by Ade » Jul 22 2015 1:42pm

Oh, and FWIW, my 100mm BBS conversion is from Doug @ California ebike and I've bought from em3ev too so I've no bias in this - I think Doug, Paul and now lectri cycles all offer great products.

As for the 100mm conversion - is this the derivative argument again? I mean really, how many ways are there to skin a cat and does it really matter? Perhaps we should all be buying tires from Dunlop instead of all the "copy cats". :roll:
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by Lectric Cycles » Jul 22 2015 4:29pm

I want to try to explain what I said in the video a little more clearly. First I did say at approximately 34 min into the video that the the controller with the upgraded Mosfets (IRFB3077) was only going to be available on our e-RAD kit. That is incorrect and I apologize for overstating it. We will be the first company to have them straight from Bafang is N.A. (EM3EV is in China and if Paul has sold them to sellers in N.A. we were un aware). We knew nothing of Paul independently deciding on that Mosfet as well(by his own admission he kept it "secret").
I never said we invented to 100mm conversion but I did say we improved it. We use steel that is 5 times harder, we use alloy parts to be lighter and corrosion resistant and our spindle is a different width to better mimic the factory spindle on the drive side.
Just like Paul we work closely with Bafang to suggest improvements. When I refer to V1, V2 etc I am referring to improvements (6 fet to 9 fet controllers, better bearings in nylon gears, and now IRFB3077) It is just a way to describe these improvements in a timeline.
When I refer to grey market I mean Alibaba where inferior kits are still coming from.
I also want to apologize to the customer in this thread that reached out to us on just such an issue trying to get a new controller. We had "holes" in our response time due to a few issues at the end/beginning of the year.
The fact is the gear sensor, cabling for it coming from the controller and software are very significant advancements and unique to our kit.
The comment I made about insurance is also true. If independent bike shops or online sellers in America order kits from EM3EV, Alibaba, Bafang or anywhere else in China and are not insured as a manufacturer they could find themselves in trouble. Even if our kits were exactly the same as what is sold on sites coming from China (which it is not) our 50+ dealer network and U.S. based warranty is enough to differentiate. We respect Paul and his company EM3EV. Again I apologize for any statements that are taken as misleading in the video.

I would like to share one last thing in response. This is an email from a customer I received a few days ago. It highlights the difference in firmware (not software on our kits compared to others. I can assure all readers of this thread that our kit is different than others and that even if available to all not all sellers take advantage of

"I've run into something unusual that perhaps you can shed some light on. My neighbor really liked the bike I got from you and had a SF Bay Area Bafang dealer/installer replicate my bike except his bike uses the C961 display and the factory Nexus IGH rather than the Nuvinci IGH you provided for me. There's one odd thing. My bike has throttle control in every level of pedal assist including assist 0. His bike has no throttle control in assist 0. It requires assist level one or higher before the throttle functions. I brought my bike to the installer and he copied my program into the my neighbor's bike but there is still no throttle control in assist level 0. He changed my C965 display to a C961 display (to enable programming 9 levels of pedal assist) but still, loading my bike's computer program into his bike will not enable any throttle control in assist 0. Do you have any idea why? I've found being able to use throttle with the display on but without any pedal assist to be both convenient and also cuts down battery use when its not needed."

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 23 2015 9:23am

Thanks for posting. Its always a risk for any business to publicly make a claim or to attempt to counter a claim. A civil dialog can often clarify a misunderstanding, rather than allow friction to simmer (whether deserved or not).

I haven't been reading about an unusual amount of mechanical failures, so that part of the BBS02 design family seems to be up to the task its been given. As I'm sure everyone is aware, the controller has been the most frequent source of frustration for owners (many of whom are new to E-bikes). I'm sure firmware and software in the control panel will continue to evolve, but it is reassuring to hear that the factory will be upgrading to cooler-running FETs for every retailer. Thanks, Paul, for posting the 206.1 identifier. In my mind, the BBS02 now has a brighter future, and I can recommend it to new riders without reservations.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by bmrcfreak » Jul 23 2015 11:16am

I would like to share one last thing in response. This is an email from a customer I received a few days ago. It highlights the difference in firmware (not software on our kits compared to others. I can assure all readers of this thread that our kit is different than others and that even if available to all not all sellers take advantage of

"I've run into something unusual that perhaps you can shed some light on. My neighbor really liked the bike I got from you and had a SF Bay Area Bafang dealer/installer replicate my bike except his bike uses the C961 display and the factory Nexus IGH rather than the Nuvinci IGH you provided for me. There's one odd thing. My bike has throttle control in every level of pedal assist including assist 0. His bike has no throttle control in assist 0. It requires assist level one or higher before the throttle functions. I brought my bike to the installer and he copied my program into the my neighbor's bike but there is still no throttle control in assist level 0. He changed my C965 display to a C961 display (to enable programming 9 levels of pedal assist) but still, loading my bike's computer program into his bike will not enable any throttle control in assist 0. Do you have any idea why? I've found being able to use throttle with the display on but without any pedal assist to be both convenient and also cuts down battery use when its not needed."
FYI, EM3ev's BBS02 750W kit has throttle only control activated in assist 0 as well.

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by cwah » Jul 23 2015 12:41pm

Would bafang ever sell a higher power version such as 1500W kit?
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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by TheThirdMan » Jul 23 2015 1:21pm

bmrcfreak wrote:
I would like to share one last thing in response. This is an email from a customer I received a few days ago. It highlights the difference in firmware (not software on our kits compared to others. I can assure all readers of this thread that our kit is different than others and that even if available to all not all sellers take advantage of

"I've run into something unusual that perhaps you can shed some light on. My neighbor really liked the bike I got from you and had a SF Bay Area Bafang dealer/installer replicate my bike except his bike uses the C961 display and the factory Nexus IGH rather than the Nuvinci IGH you provided for me. There's one odd thing. My bike has throttle control in every level of pedal assist including assist 0. His bike has no throttle control in assist 0. It requires assist level one or higher before the throttle functions. I brought my bike to the installer and he copied my program into the my neighbor's bike but there is still no throttle control in assist level 0. He changed my C965 display to a C961 display (to enable programming 9 levels of pedal assist) but still, loading my bike's computer program into his bike will not enable any throttle control in assist 0. Do you have any idea why? I've found being able to use throttle with the display on but without any pedal assist to be both convenient and also cuts down battery use when its not needed."
FYI, EM3ev's BBS02 750W kit has throttle only control activated in assist 0 as well.
This is true for my kit from EM3ev as well.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by tomjasz » Jul 23 2015 3:57pm

Thanks Paul for finally posting what some of us had surmised. As to the responses...more sales gibberish.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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mlt34   100 kW

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Re: EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

Post by mlt34 » Jul 23 2015 4:30pm

As if we needed anymore evidence to see what an honest businessman and general asset to the community Paul is, here is just one more example. Not only does he provide great products at great prices, but he also cares about the accuracy of information and not just getting a job done. Bravo!

To learn more about EM3EV and the company's cool history, check out this article about Paul. We need more vendors like him!
Last edited by mlt34 on Jul 24 2015 12:35am, edited 1 time in total.
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