Doctorbass 2WD ADAPTTO / NYX / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 26 2015 11:14pm

Doc, what happened? I'm waiting for some kind of target numbers before finalizing my own pack. 99.5% ready on 6 September, but 20 days later nothing more than speculative info from Addapto.

Fair warning:
I've lost just over 50lbs (23kg) since May with more (less that is) to come, though I'll never get to your 75kg. My bike is shedding some battery weight, which is offset by the heavier moto wheel and tire now up front. The new battery arrangement should improve aero a bit. My lower mass means I can turn current limits higher without added stress, and I'm going with a 6% larger diameter tire than I broke 100mph with both times I held WOT for more than 10 seconds on flat road. Just for insurance I'm adding one additional cell in series.

Consider a 1/4 mile and top speed challenge issued by a single hubmotored ebike built for a fraction of the price and set up for daily riding. The 1/4 will be interesting and probably close, but 2 different races, since you're likely to own the 1st 100m due to my estimated 50kg total load handicap. Hopefully I'll fly by in the final 100m. 8)

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Doctorbass » Sep 27 2015 1:28am

John in CR wrote:Doc, what happened? I'm waiting for some kind of target numbers before finalizing my own pack. 99.5% ready on 6 September, but 20 days later nothing more than speculative info from Addapto.

Fair warning:
I've lost just over 50lbs (23kg) since May with more (less that is) to come, though I'll never get to your 75kg. My bike is shedding some battery weight, which is offset by the heavier moto wheel and tire now up front. The new battery arrangement should improve aero a bit. My lower mass means I can turn current limits higher without added stress, and I'm going with a 6% larger diameter tire than I broke 100mph with both times I held WOT for more than 10 seconds on flat road. Just for insurance I'm adding one additional cell in series.

Consider a 1/4 mile and top speed challenge issued by a single hubmotored ebike built for a fraction of the price and set up for daily riding. The 1/4 will be interesting and probably close, but 2 different races, since you're likely to own the 1st 100m due to my estimated 50kg total load handicap. Hopefully I'll fly by in the final 100m. 8)

Hey John,

I'm back from Interbike 2015 at Las Vegas, I spent an entire beautifull week there and it was cool to represent Adaptto 8) . The 2 weeks before i had to prepare the 2WD bike to work and was alot busy with the kitchen rebuild at home... :roll: Then one week before going to Interbike i had to ship the bike in a crate to las Vegas so no bike availlable to work with :lol: ...

Now i'm waiting to get the crate back from Vegas to get my 2WD bike and install the 70kW 10 pounds lipo pack inside and tune and test!!

I tested it a bit on the Las vegas strip with very conservative 250A phase and 100A batt on teh rear motor and 100A phase and 50A batt on the front wheel and the bike was damn fast !!

Once i get the bike i will remove the 40 pounds 1.8kW NMC farasis battery, install the Lonestars drag racing lipo pack and tune it.

I am finalizing the lipo box to protect the pouch and keep them compressed to get the lowest RI as possible and avoid cells deformation that make them more fragile when abused.

If i go 22s the pack will be 13 miliohm only !!.. and that is at ambient! 25 C ! John Metric said these pack cut by half the RI when they are hot.. that will be awsome power density!

But now i'm hesitating about witch optimum battery voltage i should go with.

Maybe you can help for that...

I hesitate to go 20, 21 or 22s.

I plan using 400A phase ( max possible setting) to get the max 0-60ft and acceleration.

My main concern is that the Adaptto use 100V 4468 mosfet and Jeka, the engineer of this controller said these fets see about 10V per 100A phase. At 400A phase this would mean 40V overshoot!!! so in theory this would mean i need to go with battery of about 60V to make sure i have the margin...

But i wonder if this 40V should be calculated is on the top of the battery voltage when it is under load ( with sag) or not... Because if it is with sag this mean that i can go with a battery that is a bit higher voltage!

Both of my controller will draw max 320A total. Now with 13 miliohm this represent a sag of 4.16V.. Now if voltage overshoot is on the top of the sagged voltage this leave me 4.16V more margin.. and 1s more...

Personally i would preffer going with 22s, but to use the pack at 60% SOC where the RI is at the lowest witch mean 3.9V per cells = 85.8V... and with the 4.16V sag this drop to 81.64V...,.. but that is still 18.4V margin for the overshoot witch wold be only 184A phase to make sure i dont bust the 100V for the fets...
In the past i know we was able to drive up to 110V on the 4110 sometime... but risky... or to drive 24s on the 4110 witch is 12V margin for 88V nominal... but it worked with 18fets set to 250A phase anyway....


Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Allex » Sep 27 2015 2:43am

Damn this means that when I did my runs at 400A and 20s I had about 105V on the fets during spikes I guess I could see some smoke if going with 22s

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by madin88 » Sep 27 2015 4:27am

I believe with the capacitor upgrade you made and with this awesome low resistane battery the spikes will be much lower as 10V per 100A.
I have asked Adaptto about the new 14kW controller and they said it has an upgraded powerstage with better filtering.
Sounds like they have swapped the caps for better ones and added additional ceramic types as well, but thats only a personal guess from me and i think you guys already know more :)
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 27 2015 3:12pm

Help me understand. You took the bike to Interbike but didn't ride it :?:

Regarding the voltage overshoot it doesn't sound like motor inductance has been considered. Otherwise the guys running 24s into 100V component controllers would blow them far more regularly. Jeka (r u sure it's not Jenka?) may be looking at worst case. I hope so anyway, since my standard has been 20s and I want to move to 22s for my 100V component systems.

IMO the kind of phase current levels Doc and Alex throw out there with that motor is ridiculous. First, battery current is where the power is and where your focus should be. Second, I doubt you even get that level of phase current thru those motors, since if you could and it's not well into saturation then you'd simply flip over. I know this because I've pushed a measured 400A battery current with a 500A phase limit into a much lower resistance much higher Kv (ie much lower torque per amp) 3 phase hubbie running 20s. That was with a longer wheelbase, lower CG, more forward CG, and big fat me leaning out over the bars to keep the wheel down. All that and I still had to really ease on the throttle...probably not even WOT by 60ft, yet you guys talk about running higher torque with half the motor and far less ability to keep the front wheel down. I say half the motor because the MXUS has 67% of the stator surface area working at 74% of the radius.

My other issue is the meltdown level of current you guys talk about pumping into those MXUS's. Those who don't know better copy what you guys brag about and end up with fried motors. There's also the ridiculousness of running a high ratio of phase current limit to battery limit. The too commonly used 2.5:1 or so ratio is only appropriate for low power systems. I never run more than 1.5:1, and when pushing extremes it's more like 1.2 or 1.25:1. That allows much higher real power with low system stress. After learning how to tune a controller from posts of MWKeefer I haven't blown a controller in 5 years despite moving up to insane power.

Lastly Doc, your concern is misplaced on the first 60 feet. You simply don't have a rig laid out for a good first 60. Those bikes have long wheelbases and the CG down as close to axle level as possible. Instead of the first 60ft your real limitation is in the last 600 ft due to the low top speed.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Allex » Sep 27 2015 3:23pm

His nick is Jeka, and you should try Adaptto some day, because 200-300Amps phase does simply not cut it. The accelerations is too damn slow for my taste. Now at 400, we start seeing some things. Could this be due to Adaptto not overshooting phase current unlike Xie Cheng where it has unlimited(?) current during start? I am saying this is because a regular 18FET feels like a wild horse the very first second...you don't get this feeling with adaptto.
And nobody should fry motors because you get a thermistor with the kit that goes into the motor.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Doctorbass » Sep 27 2015 4:49pm

John in CR wrote:Help me understand. You took the bike to Interbike but didn't ride it :?:

Regarding the voltage overshoot it doesn't sound like motor inductance has been considered. Otherwise the guys running 24s into 100V component controllers would blow them far more regularly. Jeka (r u sure it's not Jenka?) may be looking at worst case. I hope so anyway, since my standard has been 20s and I want to move to 22s for my 100V component systems.

IMO the kind of phase current levels Doc and Alex throw out there with that motor is ridiculous. First, battery current is where the power is and where your focus should be. Second, I doubt you even get that level of phase current thru those motors, since if you could and it's not well into saturation then you'd simply flip over. I know this because I've pushed a measured 400A battery current with a 500A phase limit into a much lower resistance much higher Kv (ie much lower torque per amp) 3 phase hubbie running 20s. That was with a longer wheelbase, lower CG, more forward CG, and big fat me leaning out over the bars to keep the wheel down. All that and I still had to really ease on the throttle...probably not even WOT by 60ft, yet you guys talk about running higher torque with half the motor and far less ability to keep the front wheel down. I say half the motor because the MXUS has 67% of the stator surface area working at 74% of the radius.

My other issue is the meltdown level of current you guys talk about pumping into those MXUS's. Those who don't know better copy what you guys brag about and end up with fried motors. There's also the ridiculousness of running a high ratio of phase current limit to battery limit. The too commonly used 2.5:1 or so ratio is only appropriate for low power systems. I never run more than 1.5:1, and when pushing extremes it's more like 1.2 or 1.25:1. That allows much higher real power with low system stress. After learning how to tune a controller from posts of MWKeefer I haven't blown a controller in 5 years despite moving up to insane power.

Lastly Doc, your concern is misplaced on the first 60 feet. You simply don't have a rig laid out for a good first 60. Those bikes have long wheelbases and the CG down as close to axle level as possible. Instead of the first 60ft your real limitation is in the last 600 ft due to the low top speed.


John, You should visit Luke as it have one Adaptto and will get one more soon. You will discover how awsome these are. The engineering level you think they are is way lower than what they actually are!

The name of the engineer is JEKA and you can find it on the electrotransport.ru forum. the idea of that controller was born in 2010 and have been inprooved
alot since that.


And no i did not tried that bike yet as i had no time to finish tuned it and also that the front Wheel was even not tightened yet!!! only spokes installed and trued but not tightened.. i did not wanted to kill myself! Plus the Farasis cells was not ready to take 320A abuse.. that's why i need to finish the drag racing Lipo battery!

The phase current is important for the 0-60ft but also the battery current as well but while the pahse can be 400A the batt can also be as low as 20A.... . But at start speed phase current is what matter, then you need batt current to get the power.. and the adaptto does 160A batt no problem.

John as long as i get an increase in torque and that the temp sensor dont indicate that i'm frying the motor i will continu dumping as many phase amp as i can. I dont care about riunning low efficiency it's for drag racing for 1/8 or 1/4 mile! Using a 50 pounds motor is not going to be considered. I have prooved that with the simple epic 750w rated 5302 i can dump 10.5kW and still get 10.4hp at the Wheel... and guess what?? that,s with a 32mm stator !! and then over 16kW with the 5403 and keep the motor not too hot...

As well the saturation point of the MXUS will have to be discovered but my feeling i sthat it is not reached yet!.

As for the last 600 ft, as i said that Ebike is made for the 1/8 mile, i dont wnat to gt to the 1/4 mile with a bicycle, this require insane speed like 100mph. I wnat to keep the bicycle style and not the motorcycle style...,

I recall this bike is 1005 mtb bicycle and have mtb Wheel, tire, frame, handle bar, fork, suspension, pedal, chain, spokes and motor etc... and NOT any motorcycle parts.

So i dont care about the last 600ft i dont want to compete in that cathegory 8) but to go for 1/8 mile as speed of about 130-140kmh can give great results.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Doctorbass » Sep 27 2015 5:24pm

Now, about the voltage the adaptto can take here is the other thread i wrote about that with some fresh news:

I had a discussion with Jeka, The engineer of the Adaptto and he confirmed me a very important info regarding the optimum voltage to operate at when using max phase amp ( 400A).

When using phase amp to 350-400A, the optimum MAXIMUM voltage to keep mosfet alive is 80-82V

But it also depend on a KEY parameter!!: The hall sensor correct position!!! If one or more hall sensor is deeper than other or is angled, the protection for voltage overshoot at high current might not operate accuratly enough!


In other words FOR MAX POWER and MAX PHASE AMP try never operating controller over 80-82V... AND make sure all 3 hall sensor are perfectly positionned on the rotor!!


From Jeka:

1. mosfet (in factory) tested for breakdown at 115v. 2. Declared avalanche (breakdown) current for mosfets: 180A. Requirement that only The mosfet core did not overheat during this local spikes. 80-82V @ 400A i think is optimal. Also, use new revision of power controller module. Old modules have some problems at high spikes. According to tests, new modules have clean gate driver signals up to 5000A in peak. The most important that there was a stable and clean signal from rotor position sensors. If a signal to be distorted, on the high-current modes protection can not work . we observed it, for example on 3000w cromotor halls with a bent axis and a variable gap between a rotor and the stator. Hall sensors on high currents received an incorrect magnetic field.
:wink:

DOc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Doctorbass » Sep 27 2015 5:31pm

Today i just finished building the lipo case that will protect AND keep the cells compressed together.
I used utility 3/16", 3/32" and 1/16" aluminum and M5 flat head screw.

It is very strong! :twisted: that will also help to protect in case they would just burst into flame :lol:

I will add some rubber padding and G10(FR4) inside. The cells will be places so that the sandwich of pouch is stacked on the longer axis between the two 3/16 plate. I will also use two wedge to compress these to about 5 psi witch has been reported to give good result to keep Ri low and not damage cells.



Doc
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 27 2015 6:08pm

Allex wrote:His nick is Jeka, and you should try Adaptto some day, because 200-300Amps phase does simply not cut it. The accelerations is too damn slow for my taste. Now at 400, we start seeing some things. Could this be due to Adaptto not overshooting phase current unlike Xie Cheng where it has unlimited(?) current during start? I am saying this is because a regular 18FET feels like a wild horse the very first second...you don't get this feeling with adaptto.
And nobody should fry motors because you get a thermistor with the kit that goes into the motor.
I asked my Belarussian wife, and she never heard of Jeka and a nickname. That's why I asked.

LOL about the 200-300A! You forget the motors I use now require 2, so Adaptto is outer space type pricing for my needs, and HubMonster doesn't need sine wave to be quiet anyway. Though I have a few XieChang's still alive, I'm moving on to something much better but still a bargain. I don't doubt the Adaptto's are great, but create some more jobs and make them in bulk, because it's still just a small box of electric bits to me.

400A phase current into what? If it's a 4t that would be 400Nm (about 300ftlbs of torque), and unless you've got some unusually large load then you need to cry foul, even if it's a 3t for that matter. Since it's AC, maybe that's peak when RMS would be more appropriate, wouldn't it? To separate what's real from imaginary, how about max battery current and minimum voltage at a few points? If you do a hard launch for 2 or 3 seconds, what is your max battery current drawn? Repeat for 5 and 10 seconds. Total load and speed would be good too. I'm just trying to understand why you believe you need 400A.

Temp cutoffs may prevent failure, at least as long as it doesn't happen accelerating to get through an intersection. :shock: Who wants an extra 30-40% in copper losses simply due to hot copper though? Even fewer want to sit on the side of the road waiting for a motor to cool. A cooler motor is always better, and I don't want to have to move to the snow for a cool motor. I've gotten too spoiled here by the narrow temp range. This morning was 21.2°C and I felt cold...by 28° I'm hot. Thankfully typical temps in the shade or at night stay in the 23-26° range, and you can adjust the range to your liking simply by moving up or down in elevation with no heat or A/C needed, just maybe a fan on an unusually still days like when Luke was down in 2010. 8)

John

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Allex » Sep 27 2015 6:51pm

Jeka is a nick for his real name Zhenya or Женя in Russian.

Battery current is Around 160-170 with Crystalyte 5403 and mxus 4t with 24" mtb . I actually could not do WOT from standing still with mxus at those numbers, the front would pull up. Not the case with 5403
You can see it in the video here at 60sec https://youtu.be/XybF15eNKtI?t=57

And here you can see that the bike pulls ~160A during the whole acceleration. You will see the temp and speed as well. Hope this helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YXYcD5hQkg

Yes, it is crazy to have so many phase amps but it does not moooove otherwise, it feels astronomically sluggish at say 200phase. But again you need to try one to understand why. I do believe that Adaptto needs higher number compared to others. Doc what do you think about this? BTW beautiful craftsmanship as always Doc!
Yeah, wish I could live in CR!

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by izeman » Sep 28 2015 1:53am

My MAC takes about 150 phase amps during start. So i don't think that 400A is not doable or completly over the top.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Jestronix » Sep 28 2015 2:03am

Nice case, I have done something similar where my lipo are mounted inside a 50mmx50mm square aluminum tube. The only thing i wondered is how quickly it would melt if they did catch on fire. Im tempted to do a test with one of my old batteries.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 28 2015 9:20am

izeman wrote:My MAC takes about 150 phase amps during start. So i don't think that 400A is not doable or completly over the top.
Simple math and physics says otherwise, at least not for any meaningful portion of a second. It's not about what the motor can handle, but about the torque that would be created. The torque constant of our motors in Nm/A is equal to 9.55/Kv in rpm/v, so 400A going into a 4t MXUS3000 would be over 400Nm of torque. That's over 300ftlbs of torque, which would flip the bike right over.

Another way to look at it is via a comparison with my 18.3Kv hubbie, which is also tuned at the verge of flipping, but with a significantly heavier load on a longer wheelbase and a lower more forward CG. Even before considering the geometry, 400 phase amps into the MXUS would require over 800A into mine for the same torque. I assure you that isn't happening, not even close, yet my acceleration is as great or greater. No, the phase current limit of less than 400A on my rig is much more realistic. That would put Alex's more like 200A.

Yet another interesting way to look at it is from the heat perspective. 400A of phase current into a MXUS 4t that has a phase-to-phase resistance of 0.112ohm would result in copper losses of almost 18kw. :shock: That's obviously impossible with only 12kw going into the system. :lol: That 18kw is before the copper starts to heat up, so the copper losses would quickly go higher. My injection of realism was definitely required.

Alex said he doesn't use the full limit to avoid flipping. It may even be a real number and accurate limit if it's peak of the phase current waveform instead of the rms that the motor puts to use. Isn't 400A peak about 280A rms when you're talking about sine wave AC? Consider that he's not using WOT on launches and something closer to 200A is more realistic. It's also comparable to other controllers he's used.



I can't fault Adappto if they're quoting the absolute peak phase current, but people need to understand the difference. Phase current numbers are thrown around on the forum like it's a d%#k measuring contest, but with no ability to measure them and without a real understanding of what they mean.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Doctorbass » Sep 28 2015 12:57pm

John in CR wrote:
izeman wrote:My MAC takes about 150 phase amps during start. So i don't think that 400A is not doable or completly over the top.
Simple math and physics says otherwise, at least not for any meaningful portion of a second. It's not about what the motor can handle, but about the torque that would be created. The torque constant of our motors in Nm/A is equal to 9.55/Kv in rpm/v, so 400A going into a 4t MXUS3000 would be over 400Nm of torque. That's over 300ftlbs of torque, which would flip the bike right over.

Another way to look at it is via a comparison with my 18.3Kv hubbie, which is also tuned at the verge of flipping, but with a significantly heavier load on a longer wheelbase and a lower more forward CG. Even before considering the geometry, 400 phase amps into the MXUS would require over 800A into mine for the same torque. I assure you that isn't happening, not even close, yet my acceleration is as great or greater. No, the phase current limit of less than 400A on my rig is much more realistic. That would put Alex's more like 200A.

Yet another interesting way to look at it is from the heat perspective. 400A of phase current into a MXUS 4t that has a phase-to-phase resistance of 0.112ohm would result in copper losses of almost 18kw. :shock: That's obviously impossible with only 12kw going into the system. :lol: That 18kw is before the copper starts to heat up, so the copper losses would quickly go higher. My injection of realism was definitely required.

Alex said he doesn't use the full limit to avoid flipping. It may even be a real number and accurate limit if it's peak of the phase current waveform instead of the rms that the motor puts to use. Isn't 400A peak about 280A rms when you're talking about sine wave AC? Consider that he's not using WOT on launches and something closer to 200A is more realistic. It's also comparable to other controllers he's used.



I can't fault Adappto if they're quoting the absolute peak phase current, but people need to understand the difference. Phase current numbers are thrown around on the forum like it's a d%#k measuring contest, but with no ability to measure them and without a real understanding of what they mean.
That's a good point John,

I think it will be interesting to measure the phase current using a scope and AC clamp to demistify that.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by madin88 » Sep 29 2015 8:37am

John in CR wrote: Alex said he doesn't use the full limit to avoid flipping. It may even be a real number and accurate limit if it's peak of the phase current waveform instead of the rms that the motor puts to use. Isn't 400A peak about 280A rms when you're talking about sine wave AC? Consider that he's not using WOT on launches and something closer to 200A is more realistic. It's also comparable to other controllers he's used.
thats an interesting point. the voltage curve of FOC controller should be sine and as a consequence RMS voltage and top speed is lower, but i'm not sure about the wave form of the current.
i believe wave form of current must not have inevitably sine wave shape. much more probably it will vary alot (think it depends on load and motors back-emf). this is also known from electrical gadgets for our house line that do not feature PFC (like old PC PSU). such gadgets drain for instance 10A RMS but can have 40A or higher peaks.

the question is what do we set in Adaptto menu: I believe it is RMS current and 400A are 400A continuous. otherwise it would not make sense, but one email to adaptto and we know^^

btw: what about the statement that FOC does not drive or apply current to only one phase? i do not want to spread untruth, but i heard that once..
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by madin88 » Sep 29 2015 8:53am

John in CR wrote: Yet another interesting way to look at it is from the heat perspective. 400A of phase current into a MXUS 4t that has a phase-to-phase resistance of 0.112ohm would result in copper losses of almost 18kw. :shock: That's obviously impossible with only 12kw going into the system. :lol: That 18kw is before the copper starts to heat up, so the copper losses would quickly go higher. My injection of realism was definitely required.
yes it is impossible to put 400A with 12kW battery power into this motor, but a phase wire upgrade will bring us closer to that point :lol:
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 29 2015 12:34pm

madin88 wrote:btw: what about the statement that FOC does not drive or apply current to only one phase? i do not want to spread untruth, but i heard that once..
Into the motor on one with the return path back up the other 2 phase wires to the controller, or vice versa would be great from a heat perspective, but timing affects ?.?.? I still don't even get how timing works so well with our 3 phase motors since a magnet can be in the perfect position for only one stator tooth of a phase at any given point of rotation. That has made me want to wind a motor with one tooth per phase and a bunch of ultra cheap RC controllers for a long time. The guy selling the ebook for a DIY motor did that and said it ran much better that way than as a 3 phase.

For FOC sine wave controllers, other than the wave shape of the phase current more closely matching the motor's BEMF waveform I don't know the details of what makes them different. I understand they have a current sensor on each phase, which is part of what makes them more expensive, but they're just black boxes to me...more expensive ones per unit of output than the more common trapezoid wave controllers.

Regarding phase current limits, people should just stop posting theirs because it has so little meaning and can't easily be measured during operation, and share only battery current info and the ratio of the 2 limits. People just don't get how the silly high ratio so commonly used is wrong for a high power system. Of course, even the tech guys at the controller factories I've been able to deal directly with don't get it either. It's a double whammy...Not only does it create unnecessary heat while under load at lower rpms, but it reduces the true power possible from your controller. ie The low ratios (1.2:1 to 1.5:1 at the most) that I run don't necessarily mean I run low phase current limits. Instead it means I can run higher battery current limits, which is the true power input.

That's just another reason the beached whale in the tropics enjoys higher hubmotor performance than all you guys pushing far lighter total loads, even though your lighter loads means you can actually push your systems harder that I can. It's not just my 6 phase HubMonsters either. My 36fet with 4110's has lived for over 4 years and it pushes over 400A of battery current through a 3 phase motor that doesn't go into saturation at the 500A+ phase current limit I have set. That was the first hubmotor I pushed to a real 30kw+ input, and on only 74V nominal. I say "real" because that's minimum battery voltage times max battery current, which isn't reached until somewhere above 80kph, not at 5kph where it could only be useful to cook with or stay warm.

Being frustrated has given way to it now just cracks me up about how people prefer to follow others right off a cliff instead of listen to common sense input founded on real world experience backed up by logic and science. Luckily I'm too stubborn and thick skinned to stop sharing the truth. The proof is in the performance, so it all has to eventually become common knowledge. I leave Madin88 to push the wire size issue, which I thought was already accepted as common knowledge. 8)

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by izeman » Sep 29 2015 1:07pm

how do you know when (at what current) a motor goes into saturation?

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Allex » Sep 29 2015 3:38pm

John, are you saying that I should accept slow acceleration just to have a cool motor by have a low ratio of 1:1.5? Well for you with 400A DC/500Phase it might work but not with my bike with only 100A DC

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 29 2015 4:46pm

Allex wrote:John, are you saying that I should accept slow acceleration
Wrong! Misconceptions and following others who never took the time to properly tune their systems and understand what the different settings actually do will keep you from getting the most out of your system. Let's assume the battery current displayed in your video is correct. Then drawing 11kw from the battery at 5kph is creating tons of extra heat in the system that isn't necessary to create the torque you feel. I don't have an Adaptto, so maybe it requires a different ratio since we already know that the 400A isn't real and can never be real with only 11kw coming out of the battery.

The way I do it is to first determine the proper ratio for that motor controller combination. Set the battery limit at modest power and set the phase limit the same, 1:1 ratio. No field weakening or overspeed settings. Spin it up no load, and also give it a road try up to max speed, so you can hear and feel what the motor is like when starved of phase current on takeoff and at the top end. Often it won't even spin up to full no-load speed. In small increments increase phase current until it doesn't sound or feel starved of current, but you're not looking for hard launch yet. Once it seems to be functioning and sounding correct at that modest power level note the phase:battery limit ratio. Now start turning both up at the same time and maintaining that ratio until you get to the desired power and thrust on takeoff that you want. The end result will be higher power than you had the other way, but the motor and controller will be less stressed, ie less heat, especially under load at lower rpm. FWIW, Zombiess used a similar approach to come up with a 1.8:1 optimum ratio for his 4t Cromotor.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Allex » Sep 29 2015 4:57pm

Yes this is how all should tune their configs and the basic procedure also applies to Adaptto. But as I mentioned before, the ratio is higher on Adaptto in comparison to traditional controllers.
I am already maxed out at 160DC Amps and if I set 240 on phase(1:1,5 ratio) the raise to those 160DC amps during acceleration is very slow and gets there maybe at over 40km/h (can't remember it now) Now if I would increase the ration and have it somewhere at 350-400 it will jump to 160DC in a wink - and acceleration is proportianlly powerful.
So those 400 are maybe something else or simply works in a different way - I dont know.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by John in CR » Sep 29 2015 5:45pm

Allex wrote:Yes this is how all should tune their configs and the basic procedure also applies to Adaptto. But as I mentioned before, the ratio is higher on Adaptto in comparison to traditional controllers.
I am already maxed out at 160DC Amps and if I set 240 on phase(1:1,5 ratio) the raise to those 160DC amps during acceleration is very slow and gets there maybe at over 40km/h (can't remember it now) Now if I would increase the ration and have it somewhere at 350-400 it will jump to 160DC in a wink - and acceleration is proportianlly powerful.
So those 400 are maybe something else or simply works in a different way - I dont know.
The problem is Adaptto has fallen into the same trap of thinking 2.5:1 is an appropriate ratio. THAT RATIO IS ONLY APPROPRIATE FOR LOW POWER SYSTEMS, because they're typically legally limited in power and the extra heat is still small enough for the motor and controller to handle. They need to lower the max phase current limit and raise the max battery current limit. The inappropriate ratio is likely what killed the controller that Doc was using on his X5302. It's probably the same for the instability Kelly's used to have when trying to run max power. In Adaptto's case they should be able to change it with a software update. If they resist the idea ask for justification of the 2.5:1 limit ratio, other than copying it from the Chinese who have had continuing problems running big hubbies. The Chinese solution, like with motor is just going to bigger and bigger controllers instead thinking of something better. Failures being dominantly on the high side should be proof enough to at least test the concept, since there's no rationale based on the physics to support the arbitrary ratio.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Allex » Sep 29 2015 6:03pm

Yes we could have higher DC amps but what about betteries not all packs can do 200-300amps.

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Re: Doctorbass 2WD NYX / Adaptto / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

Post by Doctorbass » Sep 29 2015 6:43pm

John in CR wrote:
Allex wrote:Yes this is how all should tune their configs and the basic procedure also applies to Adaptto. But as I mentioned before, the ratio is higher on Adaptto in comparison to traditional controllers.
I am already maxed out at 160DC Amps and if I set 240 on phase(1:1,5 ratio) the raise to those 160DC amps during acceleration is very slow and gets there maybe at over 40km/h (can't remember it now) Now if I would increase the ration and have it somewhere at 350-400 it will jump to 160DC in a wink - and acceleration is proportianlly powerful.
So those 400 are maybe something else or simply works in a different way - I dont know.
The problem is Adaptto has fallen into the same trap of thinking 2.5:1 is an appropriate ratio. THAT RATIO IS ONLY APPROPRIATE FOR LOW POWER SYSTEMS, because they're typically legally limited in power and the extra heat is still small enough for the motor and controller to handle. They need to lower the max phase current limit and raise the max battery current limit. The inappropriate ratio is likely what killed the controller that Doc was using on his X5302. It's probably the same for the instability Kelly's used to have when trying to run max power. In Adaptto's case they should be able to change it with a software update. If they resist the idea ask for justification of the 2.5:1 limit ratio, other than copying it from the Chinese who have had continuing problems running big hubbies. The Chinese solution, like with motor is just going to bigger and bigger controllers instead thinking of something better. Failures being dominantly on the high side should be proof enough to at least test the concept, since there's no rationale based on the physics to support the arbitrary ratio.
John, What killed my Adaptto was my fault due to abuse of higher voltage and high kv motor and as well high phase current.... it was during cold weather ( as you know we have it here..) and mosfet was cold so their Vdss was lower than the spec 100vdc max according to the spec sheet, add that to the 22s ( full battery ) of 90V and high kv motor and 330 A phase. and you get the perfect key to kill controller. The breakdown voltage of these 4468 fets is 115V ad add the fact that the overshoot in voltage is about 10V per 100A phase and you get 330/10 = 33Vdc higher than the battery voltage = 123V witch is 8 volt above the breakdown voltage... the Adaptto at least , last for about 5km before dying...

John there is so many parameters in these controller to tune them properly or.. improperly that in my opinion they can be tuned in every single way you can imagine. but as well not as far as the Sevcon does for sure.

Doc
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