E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Aug 12 2015 8:44am

Canadian CBC news (from the province of New Brunswick) video:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns ... -1.3186794

Per that video "... policy not written into the (provincial) Motor Vehicle Act."

Pathetic. And I though towns and cities in Ontario were "bad" (trying to ban and restrict already approved provincial law taken from Canadian law re the "power-assisted bicycle").
:cry:
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by Ypedal » Aug 12 2015 1:44pm

I got a call following this from Radio Canada, i hate politics, HATE THEM .... a waste of time imo .. but since i'm being dragged into it. here is my personal point of view.

A fully functional bicycle, with a small electric motor is a great thing .. The general population ( ie : non-cyclists and vehicle operators ) can recognize a bicycle easily enough and behave accordingly.

When you step outside this " bicycle " circle, you are operating what i could call a Light Electric Vehicle, and no, it's not a bicycle.

Now, i'm not against these LEV's, not at all, i own a few... and i love them for what they are... a convenient means of transportation, not meant to be pedaled ( but still pedal-able if you choose to )

The problems are coming from the few idiots that ruin it for the masses, those who choose to operate in an un-safe fashion, run red lights, don't bother to have functional brakes, use them to get around DUI's, fly at top speed thru pedestrian trails, and generally make asses of themselves.... there are plenty of those types of people operating cars and they get treated by the police accordingly... should be no different for LEV's.

Just don't fail the attitude test and everything will be fine ... if only it was that easy.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Aug 12 2015 1:49pm

Oooops. Lots of stuff called a "scooter":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter

(Oddly the prefix "mini" nowhere on that page.)

My current ride (recumbent "cruiser" tricycle) does NOT have a "normal" "bicycle" frame either. (Does a "bicycle frame" come with a comfy padded backrest?)

Importer claims can support up to 250 pounds... though I haven't seen any "certification" yet. (Is that with a dry rider or soaking wet???)

:cry:

EDIT: Les LeBlanc has come on ES once before:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 15#p599948
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by Ypedal » Aug 12 2015 2:16pm

HA !.... i don't even remember writing that ! .. go figure. .. :lol:
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 12 2015 2:18pm

I have been a "fun vehicle" enthusiast my entire life. I recall that back in the late 1970's, the state of California performed random roadside vehicle inspections. I read a lot, and I sometimes read Hot Rod magazine. They had an article on how to take a 400 cubic inch Chevy small block and make it pass a "visual inspection" as a low compression 307. When the various governments crack down on ebike power limits, I will write about how to bypass the law and get away with it.

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by wesnewell » Aug 12 2015 4:24pm

Kiriakos GR wrote:1) This is not a bicycle frame.

2) every legal e-bicycle comes with paper from the manufacturer, this is the verification about power specifications, and this is also a proof that this product solution was tested also by the Chinese authorities, regarding safety and compliance.

In this case the LAW is correct.
This is a mini scooter, totally untested for compliance.
1) It is a bicycle by all definitions. The shape of the frame has nothing t do with it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bicycle
2) Maybe in Greece. Here, there is no paperwork for a bicycle converted to electric, and it's still legal.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by markz » Aug 12 2015 9:26pm

Look Canadian coppers are only interested in racking up demerit point infractions are automobile drivers.
They do not care about a bicycle on a bike path that is doing 15-20kph pedalling an ebike.
You start doing wheelies down Main Street on your ebike and blowing red lights, then you might be warned.
Live in a small town - no town........same coppers everyday eating donuts......seeing the same moron doing 80kph on an ebike down main street blowing stop signs.
Not good.

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by rsilvers » Aug 12 2015 9:55pm

One of the best things about ebikes is that people see them as bikes, so you can fly under the radar. The problem is that this is a bicycle that looks like an unlicensed moped or scooter. Write the policy into law and he would still get pulled over often.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by markz » Aug 13 2015 3:22am

Thats just it, I'd rather have something that looks like a bicycle, that I can ride i
n city parkways, bicycle pathways etc. I never understood why people buy those little 50cc mopeds, I mean in 1990, sure. Now ebiking is the way to go. You go some small town - no town, Penticton BC, even bigger towns like Victoria BC, you could and do cover a ton of ground on a bike. You are hoofing it or taking the bus its a waste of time. Bigger cities like Calgary and Vancouver you can take your bike on the train. Any bus in BC has a rack including small town no town. Calgary AB not so much. You are lucky to find a bus with a rack. I dont know why they wasted money on our stupid bike lanes when what we really need is bicycle racks on our buses, buts thats stupid fing politics for you and our current mayor isnt doing a great job at all. Doesnt have a feel for the community putting in bicycle lanes downtown and wasting much needed parking spaces, when we need those racks. Our train goes down, they replace it with double length buses with no racks. I waited 4 hours one day. Supervisors didnt care. And most of them have accents, they dont care. Its rare to have someone speak fluent english driving the transit. Thats why I like BC Transit, it seems from my expirience they all speak fluent proper enlgish, no matter if I am in Penticton, Kelowna, Victoria etc. Vancouver I never paid attention to those bus drivers, dont even know if their train has drivers. Now you go East Coast, got no clue about NB at all. One day I will cruise it on my Harley, or do the Trans Canada Trail on my eBike. Plans and dreams.

Cops will only pull you over on your ebike for power tripping moments, I have had it done to me a few times. They are more interested in the rusted out Jeep driving with the 1970's camper trailer then a dude on a bicycle. Yeah the copper even said if I had a safety on my trailer, like thats law, like I dont know the law. GGGGggggrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

I know the law more then them, they only know Traffic Code inside and out!!!!!!

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by Eskimo » Aug 13 2015 3:38am

Velomobile and e-technology is a perfect marriage. They look so weird already and pedaling is not visible if you do it so it"s not an issue, and motorless ones are so fast that if you try go even faster you just kill yourself. Motored velomobile is often even slower than motorless one on flats, because DD-motor starts to brake it down after the top speed is achieved. I can not keep up with motorless Milan on flats with 48V with my bulky retro chassis, tried and tested. Milan can cruise above 50 km/h, i can"t. Only difference is hills, where i fly past him.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Aug 13 2015 4:38am

Moi? I tend to take the "gross", "overall" view. In a desire to kill off the 19-20th century horseless carriage ("car" etc) I ask myself whether I would rather have to share spaces with a (relatively) large, heavy, fast and expensive vehicle? OR a (relatively) "tiny" vehicle where the operator does NOT wear a seat belt and does NOT sit "protected" by airbags and behind "crush zones" in a metal/plastic and glass contraption with its own contrived/manufactured environment.

I suspect the tiny vehicle is MORE DANGEROUS for the operator ("driver") such that the vehicle is inherently safer for EVERBUDDY ELSE. The driver is more concerned about their OWN safety. AKA "Looking out for Number One". And accordingly is MORE cautious in the operation of their own vehicle ("bicycle", (motor)cycle,"tricycle", etc).

Totally jealous of the US and their HR727 8-2001. That 750 watts thingee aka one whole horse to ride around on. And in sorta true "Canadian" style we get only pony-sized at 500 watts (CONTINUOUS, NOT PEAK. hehe) And NOT so jealous of Euro folks with their EPACs to date. And then there are those poor other British colonies imprisoned with only 200 watts.
:cry:

Anyway... Given Physics 101 about the energy required to move a mass ("weight")...

I'm pretty much a laissez faire sorta guy, and given the Universal Rules of Travel (seen here:)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 83#p854178

I'd probably only add there some limit to overall vehicle weight. Something like "able to be carried by a healthy adult over some short distance without touching the ground".

Vehicles that can be expanded in size/capacity by adding a (not TOO "huge") cart, etc when needed.

So. End of debate?

EDIT: Having said all this I might be hard pressed to lift and carry any "scooter"-style bike very far at all. :|
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by rsilvers » Aug 13 2015 8:53am

LockH wrote:Totally jealous of the US and their HR727 8-2001. That 750 watts thingee aka one whole horse to ride around on.
I believe that is only for pre-made bikes. You can make your own and that does not apply. However, there are state laws. I believe my state calls it a moped (requires permit) if there is an automatic transmission and it is an ICE under 50cc, or a motorcycle if over 50cc. If there is no automatic transmission, then it is a bicycle no matter how much power and it is not an ICE.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by markz » Aug 16 2015 2:46am

IF - you want safety, what you need is a ONE ton crew cab 4x4 truck with big metal bumpers, the truck should be lifted a few inches. You pay for this safety by higher fuel prices, but you can bypass this price by buying a dual fuel system. Propane and Gas, by the flip of a switch. In the winter you can start off with Gas to warm it all up then switch to propane, but you can not park in parkades and propane can be limited so the dual fuel is the key to that.

Safety is not a Dodge Colt, or Prius, or Smart Car, or Ford Focus or any similar sized vehicles. These smaller vehicles are really death traps and shouldnt ever be driven, but if so only really ever be driven on residential roadways of 50km/h, but even then a major residential roadway of 60km/h intersection and side swipe can kill passengers in smaller vehicles. Thats why trucks are the safest. My said One ton sideswiping a PRIUS and my winch is through their skull. This is from people running lights because they are in a hurry to get home. They are willing to risk the lives of them and their occupants for a measley minute or two gain, if that. Sometimes its not even a gain. But they risk it.

That being said, a motorcycle is not safe at all. People die on those all the time too.

It really comes down to the driver and his/her actions. Like bicycling and eBiking. If the rider decides to obey the law, and ride on a major roadway during rushhour, then they are putting their lives in the hands of automobile drivers on the roadway. So its a give and take.

I am glad however the little girl survived, and the hospitals in Greece were open and fully stocked with life saving materials by dedicated emergency personel.

As far as laws go, well eBiking is a relatively new hobby/sport. Cops are not on the hunt for eBikers........yet. They have a priority, and bicyclists arent high on their list. Unless you start doing wheelies up and down the road, or do 100mph on a bicycle pathway. This area of law is grey and is rarely prosecuted, even though you do see the occasional person charged, but its their own fault. Laws are meant to be broken, that is why they put the laws on the books. Judges, police, marshals, sherrifs even the President of the USA breaks laws everyday of the week. Do they get prosecuted for their deviancies? no, nor should they. Laws are just a guideline, there are LoopHoles in laws and are meant to be broken!

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Aug 16 2015 4:22am

Hehe... So while the rest of the world moves on. More and more folks "urbanized" living in towns/cities where speed limits are getting slower and slower (either by law of just by simple "traffic congestion". What used to be termed a "rush hour" now goes on all day, most days.) to be truly safe everybuddy needs to ride around in the new "TEN TON TANK"-style vehicles! :roll: (No problem with massive consumption and waste there.)

Maybe the best idea I've heard so far is the "self-guided" vehicle where any operator is removed from the equation other than to select a destination. Any "remote traffic management" system hooked into wirelessly would be FAR better at juggling these vehicles as they move and park rather than the pandemonium that we deal with today. ("Pandemonium"? See hell in lost paradise.)

But until we can get from here to there, my vote is to make vehicles smaller and lighter (and slower) and more dangerous for the operator. Gee. Sorta sounds like a bicycle, doesn't it?
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by markz » Aug 16 2015 2:09pm

Yes, this is what you need in New Brunswick's "Rush Hour"
http://www.topgear.com/car-news/it%E2%8 ... des-unimog

Even cooler and even better the Marauder
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... hicle.html

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Aug 16 2015 2:25pm

Hehe...
Frederickton Population (2011) "Metro" area 105,688
Pop. whole of New Brunswick (2011) 751,171
... and this is just the provincial capital city. Throw in a few more cities like Moncton, Saint John, Edmundston... Not sure what the future might bring. Maybe everybuddy will move to Bathurst or something. But suspect "urban" population will continue to rise.

Riding around "downtown" anywhere in that Unimog may seem strange.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by markz » Aug 16 2015 3:59pm

You need these vehicles to fish!

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Aug 16 2015 5:23pm

markz wrote:You need these vehicles to fish!
Used to be in New Brunswick ya didn't have to run down the fish. (Just stomp `em while they flop around on shore.)

Anyway. I accept some from "back in the bush" will appreciate the new one million horsepower ebike. (Coming soon to somewhere near you!)
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by Lessss » Sep 01 2015 11:42pm

The full text of the ebike policy for N.B. as obtained via FreefomOfInformationActRequest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_ ... _Brunswick
To be allowed on the road it needs wheel rims larger than 9 inches, have a headlight for night, a seat at least 27 inches off the ground.

New Brunswick’s Policy on Electric Motor Driven Cycles and Electric Bicycles

The Registrar will permit an electric motor driven cycle to be registered if it meets Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (CMVSS) as a Limited Speed Motorcycle, or Scooter as is done with gas powered motor driven cycles. If the vehicle was manufactured after 1988 it will bear a compliance label stating that it meets these standards. The operator will be subject to all the requirements placed on operators of motor driven cycles.

If the vehicle is able to powered by human force and has a motor 500W or less, and the motor is not capable of assisting when the vehicle is traveling at a speed greater than 32 km/h then it can be considered a bicycle and all the requirements placed on bicyclists are applicable.

It is important to note that if a vehicle has an electric motor greater than 500 watts and is capable of powering the vehicle when traveling at a speed greater than 32 km/h and it does not have a CMVSS compliance label it cannot be registered unless the owner can prove, by having the vehicle certified by an engineer, that it is safe for operation on NB highways. Also, not all vehicles are suitable for operation on NB highways and it could be that the vehicle in question may not be a motor driven cycle or a bicycle and cannot be operated on the highway at all.

Power Assisted Bicycle Label:

Manufacturers of e-bikes must permanently affix a label, in a conspicuous location, stating in both official languages that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in the regulations under the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Act. Homemade e-bikes will not have this label.

NOTE 1: The previous version of the policy had a section on it needing to "look like a bike" or a "bike style frame" but never defined what those were. That has been dropped and is no longer part of the new policy.

NOTE 2: The top speed of the bike if propelled by human power is the posted speed limit, but the motor is only allowed to get you up to and keep you at 32 km/hr. If the posted limit is under 32 then the posted limit is the limit allowed.

NOTE 3: There is no maximum weight limit.

NOTE 4: Ebikes are allowed to use cargo trailers/kid trailers.

NOTE 5: There is no minimum age set.

NOTE 6: DUI - If you have a DUI conviction the restrictions of the DUI override the ebike policy definition of an ebike as a bicycle and put it into the motor vehicle category.

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/servi ... 00814.html The last sentence of the Electric Motor Driven Cycle Section.
The notes are not part of the policy they were added by me after some Q&A with the ministry to clarify things.

History of the policy (these dates are from memory and may be wildly wrong)
2006 I called and asked if ebikes would be treated as bicycles or as motor driven cycles. I was told as bicycles. I asked if there were any other restrictions or requirements and was told no there are none.

I was stopped 3 times by cops I explained what it was etc.. and no issues.

2007 I confirmed this again their status and then ordered in a few to sell as a hobby.

14 of these
cycle.png
cycle.png (74.64 KiB) Viewed 1581 times
I refer to these as Wide style
2 of these
advert3.png
advert3.png (65.42 KiB) Viewed 1581 times
I refer to these as thin style
and
16 of these
advert1z.png
advert1z.png (59.82 KiB) Viewed 1581 times
I refer to these as thin style

People preferred the wide style but preferred the thin style price tag.

My first customer was stopped a few times. He's disabled and is an immigrant( barely speaks English) The ignorant cop who pulled him over was a bully and was threatening him with a $6000 fine and time in prison if he ever caught him driving it again. The customer is from the Phillipines and the cops there destroyed his foot through torture. He was terrified. I learned of this and visited the traffic Sgt. Explained to him what it was etc.. etc.. The Traffic Sgt contacted the ministry to confirm. All was ok, no problems, and they sent an email out to the entire dept.

I bring in 50 of these
nicom.gif
nicom.gif (4.57 KiB) Viewed 1581 times
and also start selling a few conversion kits.

No issues or problems until 2010 when suddenly I hear unsubstantiated rumours cops are telling people ALL ebikes need to be registered. I contact Service NB and they say no they are bikes.

2011 again rumour of cops telling people they need to be registered. I again contact SNB but now am told that if an ebike looks like a bike it's a bike but if it doesn't it isn't. I ask for what line item of legislation says that and am transferred to another dept. and again and again until I am hung up on. I periodically call back and the same thing keeps happening. I contact the ministry by email and am similarly ignored. I take a bike down to SNB to get one registered and they tell me they don't register bicycles and they don't need registration. So since nobody will tell me what legislation says they need to be registered and SNB says they don't register them and don't need registration I continue as before. A month or so later a customer comes to my door with a printout from SNB that says the "if it looks like a bike" thing. More emails and phone calls and still mostly ignored. One in six emails might be responded to, but they just regurgitate the same thing, and refuse to give anything on what legislation says this. I get a different answer each time as well. Sometimes it's "bike type frame" or "looks like a bike" or once even a "ten speed frame only". Ten speed frame only would exclude trikes, beach cruisers, mountain bikes, bmx bikes etcetera. I send a few more emails but it's winter and put it on hold as the bike season is mostly over.

2012/13 At this point business has ground to a halt. I hear the cops are doing registration checks down by harbour station. So I go down to see what happens. They outright LIE to me that "new legislation was just passed that says they need to be registered". I call them liars, that I'm the guy that has been bringing them in and selling them, and I've been trying to get the legislature to do just that. No such legislation was introduced, passed or published in the gazette and I wanted to speak to a supervisor. 20 min later no supervisor and I am handed a ticket and ushered on my way.

I fight the ticket I use MULTIPLE FOIARs to dig into it further because they try to answer my inquiries as minimally as possible and ignore giant swaths of my request. I learn to put my requests in point form.

I learn there is no such legislation at all that says this. No such legislation has ever been published that says this. In fact the ministry has no clue where this entire "looks like a bike" thing came from. I contact the crown. They have not assigned a lawyer to the case. I fax my info over and confirm they received it. I demand to know the exact charge I am facing as according to the ministry my ebike is a bicycle. Long story short https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... +brunswick a year later the ticket is withdrawn. I was really looking forward to subpoenaing SNB records on how that "looks like a bike" thing made it into their database.

2013 NEW ebike policy is created that follows the federal definition. (top of this post)
They begrudgingly put a small snippet of the ebike policy up on the SNB website under vehicle registrations as the last sentence on the electric motor driven cycle section.


Part of the reason they finally created the new policy is because in an email the Ministy told me the federal definition 1.21 doesn't apply in N.B.! My reply was that means ebikes in N.B. don't have a motor wattage limit and don't have a speed limit other than to he posted speed limit. So I could merrily build ten speed frame ebikes with 10,000W motors that could go 80Km/hr and it would be perfectly legal. Unsafe, but perfectly legal. The next email I got was the announcement of the NEW policy that follows and even refers to the federal policy via the sticker section, reimposing the wattage limit of 500W and top speed of 32 Km/hr.

2015 Out of the blue I get an email from cbc wanting to do a story on my kijiji ad which asks ebike riders to contact me if they encounter any police harassment. I do the interview and explain the history of all this. They phrase the story as "ebike confusion". There is no confusion. I just want actual legislation for protection not just a policy.
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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by Lessss » Sep 01 2015 11:48pm

The hobby business is still slow. I'm down to like 3 bikes and a couple conversion kits. I've been busy doing other things with my time like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIgFELpcDMg

In Saint John the pre-made ebikes are more popular by miles over conversion kits. The major stumbling block is still the lack of availability of cheap lithium batteries. The local battery company Clear Power Solutions, still refuses to stock or offer lithium batteries on order. Amazon.com not .ca but .COM is the easiest place to get lithium batteries.
Give me nuclear batteries I say!! Ripped off by Joshua Goldberg to the tune of almost $900 re headway groupbuy for batteries, no $ no batteries
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LockH   100 GW

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Sep 02 2015 12:32am

Good Stuff Lesss! (May the ebike Force be With You!) Sorry to hear "pre-made" still more popular by miles? (BTW, here pretty much all converted to thousands of meters aka "kilometers".) My money's on conversions. Due to the thousands and millions of old-style antique poop mobiles (aka pedal-only bicycles) already out there.

Sorry to hear re the folks at Clear Power Solutions. For any reading this thread:

edward@clearpowersolutions.com
Bonnie@clearpowersolutions.com
Jason@clearpowersolutions.com

And message subject: I want Lithium please!
:wink:
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

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Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by Ypedal » Sep 02 2015 6:27am

People around here will gamble 500$ on just about anything..

Reality is this, a viable lithium battery pack, charger and mounting bits alone costs 500$ ... .and an ebike is all about the battery.

If those pedals are seriously meant to be usable ( not just attached ), the bike needs to be realistically light enough and built to be pedaled by a physically able bodied person... and this is where it gets murky...... moving along.

Selling kits as DIY to locals, is a non-starter... i've sold a handful to locals, all plug and play and even then the after sales support levels are great....

Building ebikes using locally sourced bicycles and kits make far superior machines for the money, but they don't come in at 500$.. not at my level of operation anyway.. a kit and battery cost 1000$ and you put that on whatever bicycle the customer likes... it's a viable business... if you are slightly insane and like the torture... and enjoy eating kraft dinner.

Customers willing to spend 1000$ are not that common yet, but they are a growing crowd as the word gets around. .. kits installed properly, do work well. .. kits installed by most newbs, improperly are nothing but trouble, unreliable, and sometimes dangerous... ( Edit: the skilled DIY'ers buy online at rock bottom prices and figure it out... like most on this forum )

I had to buy 50 pcs lithium packs to get acceptable quality but they ended up costing me $$$$... even at that volume level... but selling kits and letting customers find their own battery packs is a nightmare, don't even go there.

Selling online at zero profit margins.. it's only worth what you make $$.. nothing.
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LockH   100 GW

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Location: Ummm.. Started out in Victoria BC Canada, then started to move around... Oh oh.

Re: E-bike debate (in New Brunswick, Canada)

Post by LockH » Sep 02 2015 6:54am

Hmmm... Yah. That "after sale support" thingee... How `bout for the newb DIY crowd mixing up a kit purchase with a series of weekly classes perhaps? First night, bring their bike (for "instructor" to eyeball re suitability - both the bike and the wannabe ebike rider hehe), then bikes left at same location until they graduate (bikes and newbs). Print up certificate "Diplomas" for grads. Can build up a support network OTHER than pestering instructor guy when "something ain't right"?
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

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