A new Solar Vehicle (with pedals)

Sometime ago I started a project of a "velomobile" as a hobby project and latter on it has become more a business project like, and what was at first a simple car with pedals, now is a Solar Vehicle with a fully enclosed structure, made with sustainable and easy to source materials, out of the self components, as it is an Open Source Harware project...

At this moment we are getting close to prototype this Solar Vehicle that we called mö with the intention to market it, and we need feedback. Will you be so kind to fill our poll, you will not use more than 3 minutes. And there is no need of registration.
Here is the link:
http://www.evovelo.com/en/poll.php
Thank you.
Questions welcome.

(The picture is just a render of how it will look like)

You are located where ? ( update your profile to include your location on this earth, update under settings on your account page I think ).

Tells us about the Solar Cells ,
What brand ?
Size of each cell ?
Wired in Parallel , Series , or Series Parallel ?
Voltage , and Amperage, or wattage of each cell
How many cells ?

Charge controller spec's from solar cell configuration down to battery pack

Battery Pack Spec's Volts, Amps ?

I spot E36 BMW M3 'vader' seats! I know it's probably just a easy to find CAD model, but those seats are hella heavy ... like 65lbs (30kg) with manual adjustments. Just happened to have some next to me (see attached).

The car looks neat otherwise. Nice use of 'flat' materials for ease of cnc-routing and just bending it for curves. Easier than messing with fiberglass/compsite molds.

Hi ScooterMan101
(Profile updated)
I am located in Spain, and we are developing this project here now, but we are open to move and it may happen... and we may end somewhere else like US, France or UK, who nows.

About the solar cells/panel we will provably use Sunpower cells. The panel array is not fully defined but at the end we need from it around 100 to 150W
Motor power: around 1000 to 2000W, and adequate controller, provably Kelly or better.
Battery: LiFe, around 1000Wh or more.

Any suggestions welcome

adriftatsea said:

I spot E36 BMW M3 'vader' seats! I know it's probably just a easy to find CAD model, but those seats are hella heavy ... like 65lbs (30kg) with manual adjustments. Just happened to have some next to me (see attached).

The car looks neat otherwise. Nice use of 'flat' materials for ease of cnc-routing and just bending it for curves. Easier than messing with fiberglass/compsite molds.

Click to expand...

Yes you are right adriftatsea, those seats in the render are just that, easy to find CAD :wink:
We want empty vehicle weight under 95Kg so there is no way for them.

And yes, you got it quick, as and Open Source Hardware project we have to think on ways of easy to source materials and standard manufacturing, that is why looks like it looks, with flat panels and simple bending. Except for the front wheel fender that we are thinking on vacuum forming.

Yes ,
Many Suggestions,

Sunpower cells are the way to go, there are companies in China taking those cells and making bendable panels , I want some of them myself, after I get done with a couple other products.
The power of the motor is good, however you will want more like 2,000 watts and more power here in the states.
Moving to France ? I would live there if I was , Not , in business, is it not expensive to have a business there ?
I would have thought Spain would have been better, but there might be other reasons for moving out of Spain, like perhaps you are not in such a good or fun part of Spain ?
Would you like the weather in the U. K . ? You would have a business that has a product with solar cells on it, in the U.K. ? ? ?
The American South East is the place to have a business now in America.
Just do, Not, buy property in Florida ! Look up the word Sink Holes . Really research that if you want to go there.
You could rent however in Florida, Just stay to the very northern part of Florida if you do go there. Better to go and do business in the Carolina's , a bit of a culture difference however.
Even though you are Spanish/Latin , the South Part of Florida has too many problems there in the Southern Part of the State.
Again if you go to Florida stay to the very north part of the State, or, Close by in South Carolina would be good and have good business incentives to have a business there.
I am in California, do not even think about having a business here, Very Expensive, and very Restrictive towards businesses .
I can write more later.

>

_GonZo_ said:

Hi ScooterMan101
(Profile updated)
I am located in Spain, and we are developing this project here now, but we are open to move and it may happen... and we may end somewhere else like US, France or UK, who nows.

About the solar cells/panel we will provably use Sunpower cells. The panel array is not fully defined but at the end we need from it around 100 to 150W
Motor power: around 1000 to 2000W, and adequate controller, provably Kelly or better.
Battery: LiFe, around 1000Wh or more.

Any suggestions welcome

Click to expand...

Thank you for the suggestions ScooterMan101 about the country, it may depend on manny issues like investors, partners, etc… But thank you for the inputs about that issue, we will take them in account.

About the solar panel, we will try to use standard sizes of flexible panels that will give around 100-110W, but in order to get even more sun power will probably order custom units, with that we can even go up to 150W or more.

Attached a picture of where and how the solar panel will be installed in the vehicle, the final solar panel will be probably much larger than the one represented on the picture:

What is the cooling system like? I imagine that even in Spain, that thing will be a nice oven / greenhouse inside without something to cool the air in it constantly, unless it is too cloudy to get any sun on it.

As there is no possibility to install an Air Conditioning, we are designing in two ways isolation and ventilation.
All surfaces will be covered with isolation panels in order to avoid overheat or over cold during use.
It will have ventilation entries at the front, provably with fans to force air in. As well the side windows can be opened for freshener.

About heating for cold weathers we are tinkling on seat heaters.

Not saying you are copying anybody, but good ideas happen to many.

http://organictransit.com/

This one less fully enclosed, so riders in Florida seem ok with them.

There will be an issue with tipping over, especially with two people in it, I've built a few trikes, and tipping is a problem.
A road with a large camber angle will be problematic also. Its not a trivial matter to consider with trikes.

Always true, ever seen that hilarious Top Gear segment. They put the huge guy in this tiny three wheel car, then he drove it on some roads sure to tip him over.

Not saying you are copying anybody, but good ideas happen to many.

http://organictransit.com/

This one less fully enclosed, so riders in Florida seem ok with them.

Click to expand...

The fairing from the picture attached and others like the tear drop trailers or the Le Corbusier car, were our initial shape inspirations about 3 years ago.
Then the Elf appeared on the market with a very similar shape as our idea, so I think it is just a confluence of designs, and I think is good.

But yes the Elf from Organic Transit has been very inspirational for us and they are together with the Twike people the pioneers opening the market. Actually I put money on the Organic Transit crowd funding campaign and I follow all they progress.

Anyway although the shape is similar to the Elf, the characteristics are quite different, it is a two seater vehicle (side by side) with a monocoque structure, fully enclosed so you can park it and lock it, as well it has a quite big trunk for cargo or up to 2 child seats.

Good to know that the riders in Florida don't complain

There will be an issue with tipping over, especially with two people in it, I've built a few trikes, and tipping is a problem.
A road with a large camber angle will be problematic also. Its not a trivial matter to consider with trikes.

Click to expand...

Well, center of gravity is calculated to be on the correct position so there will be no problems of stability cornering or braking. Its is first thing to think of on a 3 wheel vehicle.

Always true, ever seen that hilarious Top Gear segment. They put the huge guy in this tiny three wheel car, then he drove it on some roads sure to tip him over.

Click to expand...

Ohhh man that will be splendid :lol:

It will be hard to convince you of the stability issues, I have quite a bit of experience with 3 wheelers, I can tell just by looking at the design stability will be a big issue. They used to build three wheelers of similar design in china ( I visited a factory where they were made), eventually they scrapped the design for stability issues, and had to go with a 4 wheeler, it was 3 wheeler of similar design with two seats. It would be a shame to put a huge effort into building the design and then find tipping is a problem. I would suggest a mockup frame and see how it goes. Trying to help not trying to be negative.

Several years ago I thought of making a 3 wheel motorcycle . ( in reality having someone other than me, fabricate the frame )
All the research I did let me to find out a few important points.

1) Yes center of gravity is important ( CG ) but to make any trike more stable ...

2) Make the wheelbase as long as possible ! GonZo, your wheel base is too short at your present design.

3) Try to make part of it tilt . Like the rear wheel on a Tadpole design ( two wheels front one back )
or the Rear two wheels tilt on a delta trike , look up the old honda scooter called the Gyro.

4) Also with a Tadpole design , you will have to design in enough down force on the rear wheel to lessen the amount of rear sliding issues.

https://www.google.com/search?q=piaggio+mp3&espv=2&biw=1777&bih=887&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCQQsARqFQoTCPDmsdHOv8cCFYvLgAodTNcGEQ&dpr=0.9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCQtdCsvE38


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCrjWPolLcQ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Gyro

https://www.google.com/search?q=Honda+Gyro&espv=2&biw=1777&bih=887&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCMQsARqFQoTCMLlr4fNv8cCFQWXgAodtrgO2w&dpr=0.9

_GonZo_ said:

There will be an issue with tipping over, especially with two people in it, I've built a few trikes, and tipping is a problem.
A road with a large camber angle will be problematic also. Its not a trivial matter to consider with trikes.

Click to expand...

Well, center of gravity is calculated to be on the correct position so there will be no problems of stability cornering or braking. Its is first thing to think of on a 3 wheel vehicle.

Always true, ever seen that hilarious Top Gear segment. They put the huge guy in this tiny three wheel car, then he drove it on some roads sure to tip him over.

Click to expand...

Ohhh man that will be splendid :lol:

Click to expand...

I live in Florida And like it. Our sacrifice is long summers. 5 to 7 months. Not the hottest but longest. The other half of the year makes it all worth while. I do not like California. Too dry for me. But many do like it there. There are many amazing natural beauties there too. To each their own. Scooterman, try coming here in the winter. We have natural beauties too. Because of our warm climate I don't even want a fairing. So an enclosed vehicle with no AC is a no go for most people. I think it needs a jumbo battery for creature comforts, range, bling and then you have full control of CG with a big ass battery. It appears too much weight aft. If so any meaningful side forces in a turn will roll you. My first trike I moved the battery 3 times. Each time I moved the battery down and forward until the CG actually improve vs. new out of the box trike. A simple test of CG on a trike is to stand behind and exert force on a rear upper corner diagonally to a front wheel. Trike empty. Bad CG will lift a front wheel with modest force. Good CG will not lift.

Ebent,

Actually I have spent some time in Florida, about 5 months one time, splitting my time between Gainesville and Groveland, Spending as much time at the great bike area called Santos, Near Bellleview/Ocala there are great single track trails there.
http://www.omba.org/santos-trailhead.html

Then the next time was for just 2.5 months in the winter, Staying around the Ocala and Daytona Beach areas. ( the Carolinas and further north had a very cold and snowy winter that year. the worst in nearly 100 years.

I actually like Florida in the Winter. Yes even better than California in the winter ( unless I could spend the winter in Palm Springs/Palm Desert, California . The winters are good there too , with plenty of bike paths , and mountains nearby. )
The summers are just too humid for me in Florida , coming from California, and too swampy for me since I am used to dryness. Those are the only two reasons that I do live there. otherwise I would move there, even coming from a place like California.

What I wrote to the OP about Florida is the pitfalls of buying property there. ( sink holes ) and swamps everywhere .

And the business climate , a little further north .

ebent said:

I live in Florida And like it. Our sacrifice is long summers. 5 to 7 months. Not the hottest but longest. The other half of the year makes it all worth while. I do not like California. Too dry for me. But many do like it there. There are many amazing natural beauties there too. To each their own. Scooterman, try coming here in the winter. We have natural beauties too. Because of our warm climate I don't even want a fairing. So an enclosed vehicle with no AC is a no go for most people. I think it needs a jumbo battery for creature comforts, range, bling and then you have full control of CG with a big ass battery. It appears too much weight aft. If so any meaningful side forces in a turn will roll you. My first trike I moved the battery 3 times. Each time I moved the battery down and forward until the CG actually improve vs. new out of the box trike. A simple test of CG on a trike is to stand behind and exert force on a rear upper corner diagonally to a front wheel. Trike empty. Bad CG will lift a front wheel with modest force. Good CG will not lift.

Click to expand...

There are sinkholes and they get an enormous amount of press. One is too many. I think there are some areas that are vulnerable but not around here. The business climate is good here. Modest taxes. Not much in the way of heating bills. A lot on AC though. Tourism and agriculture do big business.

Surely a vehicle like this is going to be driven very frequently with a single passenger, having the side by side seating ensures that it will be unbalanced. Given one of the biggest factors in motive efficiency is frontal area, IMO it would make more sense to accommodate the two seating positions lengthwise. This also give opportunity for additional wheelbase, but same or similar roof area for solar panels.

Get your prototype going first, so you can learn from the numerous holes. At this point you're even downplaying the impact of having a solar absorbing right over your head. Only a small portion gets turned into electricity, and the majority turns into heat. Then there's the greenhouse. Don't sink a bunch of money into it in the meantime.

Good luck with it. My attitude is that electrics need to have either performance of sleek looks, though both is best. Having neither is a money loser, since even ultra-cheap can be sleek. Think something like a 2 seater Raht Racer or closer to car-like Arcimoto, not something that makes you want to figure out how to flat pack like Ikea.

Wow, a lot of responses, thank you for all the inputs and the invitations to go to different US places :lol:

Well about stability, you are all right, it is big issue. Center of gravity is calculated to be on the correct position so there will be no problems of stability cornering or braking. its is first thing to think of on a 3 wheel vehicle.

Although we have calculated really well to minimize any stability problem and to minimize the issue of only one passenger in the vehicle.
You are right as again on the one passenger issue, and it will need testing as the CoG changes dramatically with only one passenger.

That reason among manny others are why we are starting tests and prototyping.


About the look of the vehicle, there is a couple of reasons why it is like it is, one that I already commented before; It is an Open Source Hardware project so we have to think on ways of easy to source materials and standard manufacturing, that is why looks like it looks, with flat panels and simple bending. Except for the front wheel fender that we are thinking on vacuum forming.
And the other reason is that we are designing it in a way that we can sell it on kit (Flat packs) to end users or distributors.

As the issue of the seat come up on this tread I wanted to update:
This past week I was designing the seat of the mö, as per the designing program it will be 2.3Kg and on real world probably will be around 2.5Kg. not bad I think.

Frame will be made with laminated 15mm. plywood, glued together.
The seat plate 2.5mm ABS or similar screwed to the frame.
And then a padding, that I have no idea where to find it or how to make it…

Why not use a suspended-mesh seat? Very light weight, just a frame with mesh stretched across it, and requires no padding. Can be very comfy.

There are office chairs you could use right out of the box, moutning to the center post underneat htem instead of the height-setting post and wheels it comes with.

Or uyou could build your own. Check http://www.recycledrecumbent.com

Gonzalo,

I think you have a really cute website, and I do hope you attract lots of money from happy-go-lucky born rich people. If I was one I'd sink some cash into you for sure. I especially like the "inspired by" banner, and calling your beta program "mö beta".

Prototyping can take forever, and only when it's built will you find out all that's wrong with your design ... then the re-designing and delays begin and you start worrying about delivering your pre-sold "mo betas" to all those no-longer-so-happy rich guys. And if it falls apart when they start to drive, they become even less happy.

So I have a suggestion; why don't you discretely buy an Elf and stretch it sideways ... this would give you experience with lots of practical road feel, ingress/egress, and traffic situations which are hard to learn when you are locked inside a computer. You could see what a normal wheelbase feels like, then try to shrink it to match your sketch. You could take off their body, put your cardboard mockup on top for the photo-ops and no-one would know. We won't tell anybody.

View attachment 1


Are you going have pedals? None of your sketches show them.