Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Jasonv8z   1 W

1 W
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 08 2010 5:52pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Aug 25 2015 4:16pm

motomech wrote: Do you have any idea what makes an H a H?
Magnet quality? Has the Cute ever used magnets of different quality?
I believe H and the CST have a higher reduction ratio. I am thinking they switched to 0.35 lams in the CST to help offset the shorter motor stack. I've asked about what magnets they use, but my contact is currently on vacation. We should find out next week, but I don't know how believable they will be. Hobbyking switched to Taiwanese magnet manufacturers because they couldn't find a Chinese source that was true to their specs.

User avatar
Sunder   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2784
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Aug 25 2015 5:55pm

Jasonv8z wrote: I believe H and the CST have a higher reduction ratio. I am thinking they switched to 0.35 lams in the CST to help offset the shorter motor stack. I've asked about what magnets they use, but my contact is currently on vacation. We should find out next week, but I don't know how believable they will be. Hobbyking switched to Taiwanese magnet manufacturers because they couldn't find a Chinese source that was true to their specs.
That's awesome work you're doing there.

Any news on the likelihood of a 0.2mm version of the CST? I'm now tempted to buy a couple normal Q100 CSTs and test to destruction. Honestly, I'd like a premium edition, and I'm happy to pay a premium price, but if just a better edition that suits my need is more easily available, and a premium one is a long way down the track, or not available at all, then I'm also happy to get an off the shelf CST to see if it meets my needs.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

Jasonv8z   1 W

1 W
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 08 2010 5:52pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Aug 26 2015 12:23pm

Sunder wrote:Any news on the likelihood of a 0.2mm version of the CST?
0.35mm should be doable, I'm not too hopeful on a 0.2mm this round as it would likely need new or modified tooling. I should know better next week.

It's also possible to have a small run of 0.2mm laminations laser cut, but whether they would be willing to do that is a different story. If we're going that far, I'd almost rather have it done here in the US as I believe the motor could be much better with a re-design. There's so much steel in the wrong places that doesn't do anything but add dead weight. We should be removing that and replacing it with copper.

User avatar
Russell   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2014
Joined: Nov 22 2008 3:08pm
Location: State of Wisconsin, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Russell » Aug 26 2015 5:49pm

Who remembers this famous movie quote?

Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
Conan: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Reduce the laminations of hub motors.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good

-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


My other E-Bikes: Nashbar Steel Flatbar

User avatar
Sunder   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2784
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Aug 31 2015 10:51pm

Giving this a bit of a bump so that anyone who hasn't been around in the past two weeks has a chance to see the thread and express interest.

These motors are obviously built for the Chinese domestic market, meaning cheap and nasty. Seeing some export quality motors would be great.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

d8veh   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5501
Joined: Dec 10 2010 10:45am
Location: Telford

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by d8veh » Sep 01 2015 5:55am

I'd love a couple, but the cost of shipping them fom China to USA and then from USA to UK is prohibitive.

cwah   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4200
Joined: Jul 24 2011 5:42am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by cwah » Sep 01 2015 8:03am

I want too. So potentially we can get some group buy in the uk.. or even europe.
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 01 2015 1:24pm

motomech wrote:
Still, some questions remain about the Cute.
Winds? As far as I know, there were/are only two, the 24V and the 36V(Base on a early post by Lynchy, now Cel-man).
Magnet quality? Has the Cute ever used magnets of different quality?

Thank you your filling us in, "Enquiring minds want to know"
Only 2 winds? Then what is the difference between the 200, 260 and 328rpm versions? Reduction gears?

The 201 24v version and 328 36v runs and the same speeds at 36v.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 01 2015 2:03pm

Yep, I am interested in one.
Jasonv8z wrote:
My calculations (feel free to correct me) put the Q100 at 30mph 26" wheel = 373 RPM
373RPM x 12.5 reduction = motor 4662 RPM

4662 x 8 pole pairs/60 = 37296 ERPM = 621.6 hz
In general, for a Q100 divide rpm by 13 to get speed under load at 36v.
200/13 = 15.4 mph (verified by myself and others)
260/13 = 20mph (verified by many here)
300/13 = 23mph (this is my daily ride (requires significant rider input))
328/13 = 25mph (matches my other build and people with 2wd).

So, 30mph is 390 rpm.
if you do 340rpm that is about 26mph.

I would buy one that was comfortable in the 28-30mph range and about 2.2kg

Motomech is right in that the little 6fet controllers get hot running at high speeds.

I burnt out a couple in saddle bags, but have not had any problems running them in fresh air with a heat sink.

FYI, I am similar to you in that I am an avg weight strong rider with a 30lb bike (including motor and batteries) and can produce 200+ watts steady with my legs (600 peak). My builds assume an efficient bike powered by a strong rider.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

Jasonv8z   1 W

1 W
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 08 2010 5:52pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 01 2015 4:04pm

Here's an update:

After talking to Aikema, at the moment we're stuck with with whatever raw materials they currently buy in bulk, meaning 0.35mm Q100 laminations, 0.5mm Q128 laminations and whatever magnets they currently use.

They wouldn't tell me what grade of magnet they used other than it's a SH temperature rating. 0.2mm laminations would require a 10 ton minimum order. I asked if they could share their CAD file of the stator so I could have a small quantity produced in the US or any one of the 7000 lamination companies on Alibaba. They said it was confidential. This seems silly because I could easily reverse engineer the design with some calipers (I didn't tell them that). I believe this is Aikema's way of saying you need to buy from us before we are willing to help you more.

To get around this, I'm contacting companies to see if we can't get our own stator, or better yet a complete drop in motor made for the Q100 series. If anyone has a non-functional Q100, I would be happy to buy it from you. I'd hate cut the windings out of a new one just to measure the laminations.

Aikema is still willing to produce a 0.35mm Q100H freewheel or Q100 cassette (there is no Q100H cassette) in whatever no load RPM and gear ratio (either 8.2 or 12.6) we want. If there is demand that, then I'll be happy to place an order with them for whatever configurations we decide.

cwah   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4200
Joined: Jul 24 2011 5:42am
Location: Between paris and london

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by cwah » Sep 01 2015 4:41pm

I'd like a q100h cassette. Why isn't it possible? Q100h are better than q100 right?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

ScooterMan101   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1820
Joined: Oct 06 2012 4:45pm
Location: South of San Jose, California.

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 01 2015 5:03pm

+ 1 ,

The Q100c cst ( non H version ) is a decent weight and size motor , so an improvement on that for higher power in the size and weight ( or even a little more power (not talking about 1,000 watts here , just a little more like 500-600 watt, and less weight ) , would allow us DIY ers to build better performing bikes on the lighter weight end of e-bikes. Meaning 700c Good Road Bikes .
cwah wrote:I'd like a q100h cassette. Why isn't it possible? Q100h are better than q100 right?
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Sep 01 2015 5:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

ScooterMan101   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1820
Joined: Oct 06 2012 4:45pm
Location: South of San Jose, California.

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 01 2015 5:09pm

Interesting attitude from Aikema,

Every time I turn on the News for the last 2 weeks they talk about how the Chinese Economy and Business is in Trouble , Big Trouble. ( this was forecasted a few years ago to anyone who would listen )
So
Some Company , Somewhere would love to make and sell a better product ! Hmm Where ? What Company ?

Keep up the good work Jasonv8z .

>
Jasonv8z wrote:Here's an update:

After talking to Aikema, at the moment we're stuck with with whatever raw materials they currently buy in bulk, meaning 0.35mm Q100 laminations, 0.5mm Q128 laminations and whatever magnets they currently use.

They wouldn't tell me what grade of magnet they used other than it's a SH temperature rating. 0.2mm laminations would require a 10 ton minimum order. I asked if they could share their CAD file of the stator so I could have a small quantity produced in the US or any one of the 7000 lamination companies on Alibaba. They said it was confidential. This seems silly because I could easily reverse engineer the design with some calipers (I didn't tell them that). I believe this is Aikema's way of saying you need to buy from us before we are willing to help you more.

To get around this, I'm contacting companies to see if we can't get our own stator, or better yet a complete drop in motor made for the Q100 series. If anyone has a non-functional Q100, I would be happy to buy it from you. I'd hate cut the windings out of a new one just to measure the laminations.

Aikema is still willing to produce a 0.35mm Q100H freewheel or Q100 cassette (there is no Q100H cassette) in whatever no load RPM and gear ratio (either 8.2 or 12.6) we want. If there is demand that, then I'll be happy to place an order with them for whatever configurations we decide.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 01 2015 5:39pm

I have a new one I'm not using and could sell at cost.

It doesn't surprise me that they aren't going to just hand over their designs. But in general Chinese manufacturers excel at cloning other peoples stuff, eh?
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

User avatar
Sunder   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2784
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Sep 01 2015 5:42pm

Jasonv8z wrote:If anyone has a non-functional Q100, I would be happy to buy it from you. I'd hate cut the windings out of a new one just to measure the laminations.
I think I have a burned out Q100 260rpm somewhere - but the problem is, I've moved since I burned it out, so no idea where it is. I'll have a good look this weekend.

If I can find it, I'll check postage costs. I'll either send it free, or for the price of postage.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

Jasonv8z   1 W

1 W
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 08 2010 5:52pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 01 2015 10:30pm

cwah wrote:I'd like a q100h cassette. Why isn't it possible? Q100h are better than q100 right?
The problem is this:
Image
One of these things is not like the other...

Specifically, the Q100H has a lamination stack ~8mm longer than the Q100 CST. However, all is not lost. I measured the housing covers of both and determined the latest Q100 CST housing only needs ~3.5mm greater width than the standard Q100 freewheel housing. I believe they just use the tiny motor because they had the magnets available from an earlier Q100 CST and didn't want to redesign the whole thing again.

I'm making no promises, but I looked at the motor today and I'm confident I can come up with 3.5mm somewhere to accommodate the larger H motor in a CST housing. The key will be finding it in an area that needs minimal modifications so Aikema will build it for us.

User avatar
motomech   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sep 11 2010 12:21am
Location: Punta Cana Baja Mexico

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by motomech » Sep 02 2015 2:11am

I'm afraid you are not even close.
What you haven't taken into consideration is the shape and recess of the non-CST cover.
Here is a standard cover next to the latest CST cover;
SAM_1091.JPG
SAM_1091.JPG (59.03 KiB) Viewed 2524 times
When the CST cover is layed on top of the standard motor, it leaves a gap around `10 to 11 m/m.

Frankly, you have me confused again.
Did you not state that it is very likely that the CST uses the .35"laminations and that is how it produces the power that it does given it's diminished size?
And that thinner laminations(.020 m/m)are not readily available?
Given that, my advice is to forget the CST and focus on a customized motor that there might be a market for and not one you might have to invest a lot in.
The fact is, the CST is a motor for pedal assist and for that role it has enough power as it is. I think if you consider who your customer base for the CST would be, you might find a more guys looking for exercize than Lycra types or kids.
I use it that way in a 12 to 20 mph speed range and use, at most 4 gears and I enjoy the smooth shifting of my Deore XT free hub and from an asthestic standpoint, like the lighter weight of the cassette.
But I have used several DNP's and they are nowhere as awful as many would make them out to be(As Dave has mentioned, the 7-speed{11 to 28}w/ a 9-speed shifter works well).
With a Q100H rear, I might use two or three gears and with 2WD, even less(except off road).
As power goes up, the shifting of the DNP becomes a non-issue, as one can always adjust it to work well over a range of several gears.

As far as the Q100's are concerned, it seems to me that the models to focus on are the Q100H 260's.
For a fast roadster, as you have shown, the customized 260 in a 700cc wheel would provide plenty of speed without having to resort to the 328 and it's power band that extends out forever. And the custom 260 in a 24"and 26" wheels would well suit the majority of riders.
As for the frt.s, my 201H on 12S/20A is about all I want on the frt. forks as it is(especially with 2WD). More power than that would be better tamed with the 260's gear ratio.
As I said before, it would be nice to have 260 gears in a CST. But that isn't anything you could make money on and it would be a waste of your time.

I don't haVE any experience with the Q128, but it seems to me that High-power Q128's(all versions but frt.)could be popular.
Something to replace the dated BPM's and have a lower profile to boot!
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 02 2015 8:08am

At 260rpm, I’m not sure there would be enough to differentiate this motor from the current 260rpm Q100H.

And if you alluded to, many people here want more speed and over volt the motors like you did. It would be easier for most (non ES) people to stick to 36v (smaller lighter cheaper battery with more range) and get the speed from the efficiency, winding, and the current.

Personally, I like riding my road bike at 25-30 mph, and having an ebike that will do that without so much sweat equity is great (my 328rpm motor does that for me at 25mph (noload speed is 29mph)).

Pick a target speed (25-30mph) and voltage and design the motor for that. I don’t think the world really needs another 20mph Q100 (260rpm).
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

User avatar
Sunder   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2784
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Sep 02 2015 8:44am

motomech wrote: But I have used several DNP's and they are nowhere as awful as many would make them out to be(As Dave has mentioned, the 7-speed{11 to 28}w/ a 9-speed shifter works well).
With a Q100H rear, I might use two or three gears and with 2WD, even less(except off road).
As power goes up, the shifting of the DNP becomes a non-issue, as one can always adjust it to work well over a range of several gears.
I find that an odd comment: the DNP freewheels aren't too bad because you only use a few of the gears?

I've got two. One was badly manufactured but had little impact on performance.

The other was barely usable due to effectively broken teeth across multiple gears.(the gears weren't broken, just badly cut)

Luck of the draw really.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 02 2015 11:04am

Shimano 13T 7-speed freewheel is only $15 and works great. Really, anything less than 14T isn't good for durability and reliability if you are putting strong torque through the chain,
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

Jasonv8z   1 W

1 W
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 08 2010 5:52pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 02 2015 12:41pm

I'm running a 7 speed DNP freewheel right now. No complaints other than the 12-30 freewheel has a wide ratio between shifts once you get over 20mph. It always feels a little too fast or slow. That's where a 10 speed cassette would come in handy.

Jasonv8z   1 W

1 W
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 08 2010 5:52pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 02 2015 12:53pm

motomech wrote:I'm afraid you are not even close.
What you haven't taken into consideration is the shape and recess of the non-CST cover.
Here is a standard cover next to the latest CST cover;
Seems like my covers are different than yours.

Image

Without the axle (H axle has a shoulder that interferes with the CST bearing), my CST cover fits perfectly onto the Q100H motor:

Image

More or less fits with the casing on. About 0.5mm gap from being fully closed.

Image

This gives me hope that a Q100H CST is possible. I'm thinking I can find the few mm we need by axle/bearing changes, both of which will be easy for Aikema to implement. As of right now, a freewheel is the only option however.

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 02 2015 3:17pm

Jasonv8z wrote: ...This gives me hope that a Q100H CST is possible. I'm thinking I can find the few mm we need by axle/bearing changes, both of which will be easy for Aikema to implement...
How Cool is that?
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

d8veh   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5501
Joined: Dec 10 2010 10:45am
Location: Telford

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by d8veh » Sep 03 2015 5:50am

chas58 wrote:At 260rpm, I’m not sure there would be enough to differentiate this motor from the current 260rpm Q100H.

And if you alluded to, many people here want more speed and over volt the motors like you did. It would be easier for most (non ES) people to stick to 36v (smaller lighter cheaper battery with more range) and get the speed from the efficiency, winding, and the current.

Personally, I like riding my road bike at 25-30 mph, and having an ebike that will do that without so much sweat equity is great (my 328rpm motor does that for me at 25mph (noload speed is 29mph)).

Pick a target speed (25-30mph) and voltage and design the motor for that. I don’t think the world really needs another 20mph Q100 (260rpm).
You could always run it at 48v to increase the speed to the same as your present one. That would give you more power too.

User avatar
chas58   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 707
Joined: Mar 19 2013 4:05pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 03 2015 8:21am

d8veh wrote: You could always run it at 48v to increase the speed to the same as your present one. That would give you more power too.
True, but the last thing I need is a new motor and a new larger $600 battery. I kinda like having little 1kg and 2KG batteries on a 25+ mph 11kg ebike.

The power difference from 36v-48v here I supply with my legs (I know, I'm an anomaly around here).
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

Post Reply