Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 08 2015 3:52pm

After talking with Aikema, the larger H motor is available in Cassette form, but only in 145mm width. Since 15mm of this width is solely for disc brake clearance, I propose machining the areas circled in red to 2.7mm. This will give us a width of 132.5mm, allowing us to fit bikes between 130 and 135mm, but making the disc brake option useless. Since almost all road bikes and many mountain bikes accept rear rim brakes, it seems like an acceptable compromise.

For those stuck with using a rear disc brake, you can either use a freewheel Q100H, or spread your frame to 145mm.

Thus the proposed lineup would be:

Q100H CST 328RPM 132.5mm Rim brake only!
Q100H 328RPM 135mm

0.35 laminations for all. It shouldn't be a problem to order different wind motors, so chime in or PM me if you guys want 260 RPM or some other speed as well. In the future, I see the possibility of a 142mm thru axle version which is disc brake compatible, but that is the future.

Comments? Suggestions?

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 08 2015 4:47pm

That sounds great!

So, what do you see the difference in this and the current 328 motor?
Ability to handle more power (amps)?
More torque
Usable on a 26” or 700c wheel at 36v?

You said:
“Top speed no pedaling is about 28mph @ ~580W “
Which wind is that? What is your voltage and current?
328rpm is roughly a 25mph motor – if you can reliably give it the power that requires (which is currently not easy to do).
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 08 2015 4:49pm

What is wrong with www.ebikes.ca/ anyway? I haven't been able to get on there to look at their calculator or anything for a while now...
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by motomech » Sep 08 2015 5:35pm

Well, I must be getting old, but having had a Q100 powered bike that did an actual 28 mph(Unlike you, I had to use two motors to get there), I don't need a hyper-fast mini-motored bicycle that does what, 40 mph. Especially one with only one disc brake.
Good luck.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Sep 08 2015 7:58pm

I'd be keen on a 260 or even a 201 since I just changed to a 16S system.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
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After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 08 2015 10:54pm

Edited
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Jan 11 2016 3:36am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 08 2015 11:54pm

chas58 wrote:That sounds great!

So, what do you see the difference in this and the current 328 motor?
Ability to handle more power (amps)?
More torque
Usable on a 26” or 700c wheel at 36v?

You said:
“Top speed no pedaling is about 28mph @ ~580W “
Which wind is that? What is your voltage and current?
328rpm is roughly a 25mph motor – if you can reliably give it the power that requires (which is currently not easy to do).

I've been using their ~330rpm wind with a S06S at 12S to get ~28mph 700C with a 40mm slick tire. The H motor should have more torque and a bit higher power handling than a standard Q100 CST.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 09 2015 12:11am

motomech wrote:Well, I must be getting old, but having had a Q100 powered bike that did an actual 28 mph(Unlike you, I had to use two motors to get there), I don't need a hyper-fast mini-motored bicycle that does what, 40 mph. Especially one with only one disc brake.
Good luck.
I agree. It's almost suicidal to only have only one brake, but a front disc and rear rim is not a bad combination. Pro riders cruise all day in the peleton at over 25 mph, and take descents at up to 70 mph using rim brakes. If you're stopping quickly, the front brake will take most of the braking force anyhow.

Seems to be demand for 201 and 260 as well as 328 windings, so I'll try to offer all of them.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 09 2015 1:37am

Would the H hub and the non H ( Q100 c cst ) use the same spoke length for a given rim ?
( I have already ordered my spokes cut for the Q100 c cst )

"Seems to be demand for 201 and 260 as well as 328 windings, so I'll try to offer all of them."
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Jan 11 2016 3:37am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Russell » Sep 09 2015 2:56am

Though I prefer a front motor a 260 RPM rear Q100H cassette version with a 132.5mm OLD would also work on the bike I have in mind.



-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by d8veh » Sep 09 2015 4:40am

Jasonv8z wrote:After talking with Aikema, the larger H motor is available in Cassette form, but only in 145mm width. Since 15mm of this width is solely for disc brake clearance, I propose machining the areas circled in red to 2.7mm. This will give us a width of 132.5mm, allowing us to fit bikes between 130 and 135mm, but making the disc brake option useless. Since almost all road bikes and many mountain bikes accept rear rim brakes, it seems like an acceptable compromise.

For those stuck with using a rear disc brake, you can either use a freewheel Q100H, or spread your frame to 145mm.

Thus the proposed lineup would be:

Q100H CST 328RPM 132.5mm Rim brake only!
Q100H 328RPM 135mm

0.35 laminations for all. It shouldn't be a problem to order different wind motors, so chime in or PM me if you guys want 260 RPM or some other speed as well. In the future, I see the possibility of a 142mm thru axle version which is disc brake compatible, but that is the future.

Comments? Suggestions?

Image
Very bad idea. The off-set in the rim is already on the limit of geting decent spoke tension on the cassette side. I don't think you'd be able to build the wheel like that because with maximum spoke tension, it still wouldn't pull the rim across far enough.

This is a problem with most geared cassette motors. They need a fundamental redesign to bring the left spoke flange 10 or 15mm outboard. The new Keyde cassette motor looks close to symmetrical.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Russell » Sep 09 2015 6:35am

d8veh wrote:
Very bad idea. The off-set in the rim is already on the limit of geting decent spoke tension on the cassette side. I don't think you'd be able to build the wheel like that because with maximum spoke tension, it still wouldn't pull the rim across far enough.

This is a problem with most geared cassette motors. They need a fundamental redesign to bring the left spoke flange 10 or 15mm outboard. The new Keyde cassette motor looks close to symmetrical.

Very good point. A rear motor with just a 5mm offset will cause the spoke tension to shift from an ideal 50-50 split to something like 35-65 so there's no way a decent wheel could be built with the proposed 132.5mm "CST-H". Sure you don't want to go with a front???

-R
Jeep Comanche Trekking Bike w/YOUE geared motor, 42 lbs + 15 lb rear trunk bag w/12S 16Ah LiPo battery, tools, etc., 21A controller, 700 x 40C tires. 27 MPH.


My other E-Bikes: Nashbar Steel Flatbar

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 09 2015 10:47am

Jason, I am glad d8veh wrote this, and + for what Russell is saying as well , I have been thinking the same about spoke tension, since I built up my Mac hub motor, and had a professional dish and tension my spokes , I have a noticeable difference in spoke tension between the left and right spokes, and I am not happy about that.
Perhaps concentrate on them ( aikema ) , redesigning a hub motor for you , that way you can have the H or even a Q 128 that has your lamination spec's , both Disc and Rim compatible, and , use a Cassette Freehub body hub , with a Cassette Freehub body hub, a buyer can use any amount of rear cogs they want. Want to use just 7 ? then just put on a spacer . 8 ? spacer , 9 Spacer, 10 standard .
And with them designing a new motor for you that uses a 11 speed cassette freehub body, all speeds can be used ,
7 or 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 . One motor for everyone !! ( most bikes sold for 2015 and even more in 2016 have 10 and 11 speed cassettes !


Then for the future design/have them build for you a through axle Rear and Front motor, 15mm x 100 mm front, and 9 mm I believe x 142 for the rear. ( the new 2016 road bikes with front through axle are not 15mm I believe they are 12 mm just like the rear on mountain bikes, only 100 mm wide since it is the front.

The above motors would allow you to have products that other sellers do not have .
d8veh wrote: Very bad idea. The off-set in the rim is already on the limit of geting decent spoke tension on the cassette side. I don't think you'd be able to build the wheel like that because with maximum spoke tension, it still wouldn't pull the rim across far enough.

This is a problem with most geared cassette motors. They need a fundamental redesign to bring the left spoke flange 10 or 15mm outboard. The new Keyde cassette motor looks close to symmetrical.
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Dec 07 2015 1:47am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 09 2015 12:31pm

Good point to consider and worth discussing. I'm not sure this argument applies. For one thing, it never was an ideal 50-50 split. The solution is to use the proper length spokes on your wheel build (unlike the typical Chinese Q100 build)

The wheel I had made in China was crap. It used equal length spokes built to a 50-50 split, which some of you have noticed causes problems. That ONLY works for a single speed. Naturally this was done with equal length spokes. That is the problem. Taking a hub with equal length spokes and trying to center it to work with a cassette doesn't work well. I've offset mine the best I can with equal length spokes, but its just a kluge job.

Here are the spokes required for proper tension

I'm assuming 32 spokes, 3 cross with a velocity A23 622 rim just as an example;

Original hub in the drawing
Left spoke length: 288.9
Right spoke length: 285.3

Modified hub, by machining the hub from 15.2mm to 2.7mm will require different spokes:
Left spoke length: 291.4
Right spoke length: 285.3

If you use the correct spokes, you should be able to get the proper tension.


Scooter - not sure what you are referring to with "cassette freewheel" You can either have a cassette (slide on gear assembly) or a freewheel (screw on gear assembly).

I think you are referring to a cassette?
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 09 2015 1:59pm

Russell wrote:
d8veh wrote:
Very bad idea. The off-set in the rim is already on the limit of geting decent spoke tension on the cassette side. I don't think you'd be able to build the wheel like that because with maximum spoke tension, it still wouldn't pull the rim across far enough.

This is a problem with most geared cassette motors. They need a fundamental redesign to bring the left spoke flange 10 or 15mm outboard. The new Keyde cassette motor looks close to symmetrical.

Very good point. A rear motor with just a 5mm offset will cause the spoke tension to shift from an ideal 50-50 split to something like 35-65 so there's no way a decent wheel could be built with the proposed 132.5mm "CST-H". Sure you don't want to go with a front???
-R
From the dimensions they gave, the drive side flange would stay in the same place. The non-drive side flange would move outboard 5mm. While this would reduce spoke tension on the non-drive side, would it be enough to cause a problem?

My problem with front drive has always been the danger of a face plant from losing traction or breaking your fork. I also live in a country where people tend to sue each other for profit. That being said, I don't mind inquiring about it or even importing a batch for forum members if you guys want.

Current 135 CST hub:
Image

145 CST hub:
Image

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 09 2015 2:43pm

Jason,

I had a discussion several weeks ago with someone who has been working in the Bicycle industry for over 20 years now.
He said : " the reason we see through axle hubs on bikes now is because of bike Mgf's being sued when someone does not clamp down on a quick release skewer, then they go over a curb or rock , etc, and the wheel comes off and they injure themselves , then sue. With through axles, litigation is far less or not at all because a person can no longer blame the skewer/bike Mgf. if they do not put axle in right. "
He said that we are going to be seeing more and more through axle's on bicycles for that very reason.

This has / will have an added benefit for us wanting to put a hub motor on a bike. For the Front the Forks will be / are stronger on through axle forks. and for the rear it will then be much easier to fix a flat, replace a tube or tire, or any other maintenance.

So If I was in your position, I would, NOT, start selling front hub motors ... until you get small front hubs that are .. Only
Through axle hub motors !

"My problem with front drive has always been the danger of a face plant from losing traction or breaking your fork. I also live in a country where people tend to sue each other for profit. That being said, I don't mind inquiring about it or even importing a batch for forum members if you guys want."

Current 135 CST hub:
Image

145 CST hub:
Image[/quote]
My first conversion ... Sold

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by motomech » Sep 09 2015 3:06pm

Yes, centering the rim with the Q100 CST can be a challenge.
Here is my experience lacing a 24 inch Alex DM24.

First off, the motor and it's relationship to my bike's standard 135 m/m drop-outs.

It is the original CST design, with a drop width of 137 m/m(as I recall).
On the disc brake side, no washer was used and the axle shoulder mates directly against the drop-out.
Only slight modification was required to center the brake caliper on the disc.
One the cassette side, one thin flat washer was installed between the shoulder and drop-out to keep the chain(when on the 11T sprocket of the 9-speed cassette)from grinding on the drop-out.
This brought the total motor drop-out width out to about 138 m/m.
With this width, it is not difficult to fit the motor in my bike's alum. chain stays and I can do it with my bare hands pulling on the chain stays.

The wheel build;

I took Dave's advice and used 12 ga. spokes in a 2 cross pattern. The spokes were quality stainless and no washers were used.
What makes it difficult;

As the cassette side spokes are tensioned to pull the rim towards the center, the outer spokes on the brake side become more and more "bowed" back on themselves, creating, in effect, a spring(13 ga. spokes would be worse). To compound this, as the rim approaches a center position, the "pulling spokes" become more vertical, with less leverage to pull.
And, at the same time, one is adjusting to true the wheel.
So, I got to a point where the pulling side spokes had so much tension on them, I stopped a couple of milimeters short of center.
Also, the extreem tension at this point made truing to perfection difficult as well.
So what I ended up with, was a wheel that was a couple of milimeters off track with the frt. and a slight bump that I couldn't get out.
Fortunately, with a 2.5" tire @ 30 psi, neither the bump or slight mis-track is felt.

One size spokes were not an issue and the wheel has remained tight.

I think using 12 ga. spokes in a 2 cross with a 26 inch or larger rim would be easier, more "wiggle room".

Note:
The new style(Akiema)CST was a drop-out width of 134 to 135 M/M.
But it comes from a shorter shoulder on the brake side and does not offer any help in centering the rim. The cassette spline is the same lenght and this will dictate the same location of the motor.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 09 2015 3:32pm

Jasonv8z wrote:Seems to be demand for 201 and 260 as well as 328 windings, so I'll try to offer all of them.
Perfect! I like your original idea – something in the 25-28mph range (330rpm = 25mph loaded, 28 noload).

The popular choice here has been 20mph for the Q100, either 200rpm at 48v (yielding 266rpm) or 260 rpm at 36v. Obviously people who don’t like to pedal much (or just like a lower cadence) are going to gravitate to 48V and as much current as they can get away with. 17A seems to be the top limit.

I think you will be well off offering a 20+ mph and a 25+ mph model, ideally at 36 or 48V (like you said 200rpm wind, 260 rpm wind, and 330 rpm wind based off of 36v). The 200 wind for 48v (20mph), 260 wind for 36v (20mph) or 48v (25mph) and 330 wind for 36v (25mph).

I would love to see pictures of your build! ;-)
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 17 2015 1:00am

Chas,
I meant to say Cassette Freehub Body, not cassette freewheel.

Yes I was referring to a Cassette.
chas58 wrote:Good point to consider and worth discussing.

Scooter - not sure what you are referring to with "cassette freewheel" You can either have a cassette (slide on gear assembly) or a freewheel (screw on gear assembly).

I think you are referring to a cassette?
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by d8veh » Sep 17 2015 6:32am

chas58 wrote:Good point to consider and worth discussing. I'm not sure this argument applies. For one thing, it never was an ideal 50-50 split. The solution is to use the proper length spokes on your wheel build (unlike the typical Chinese Q100 build)

The wheel I had made in China was crap. It used equal length spokes built to a 50-50 split, which some of you have noticed causes problems. That ONLY works for a single speed. Naturally this was done with equal length spokes. That is the problem. Taking a hub with equal length spokes and trying to center it to work with a cassette doesn't work well. I've offset mine the best I can with equal length spokes, but its just a kluge job.

Here are the spokes required for proper tension

I'm assuming 32 spokes, 3 cross with a velocity A23 622 rim just as an example;

Original hub in the drawing
Left spoke length: 288.9
Right spoke length: 285.3

Modified hub, by machining the hub from 15.2mm to 2.7mm will require different spokes:
Left spoke length: 291.4
Right spoke length: 285.3

If you use the correct spokes, you should be able to get the proper tension.


Scooter - not sure what you are referring to with "cassette freewheel" You can either have a cassette (slide on gear assembly) or a freewheel (screw on gear assembly).

I think you are referring to a cassette?
Unfortunately, it's the difference in spoke length that causes the difference in tension from side to side. It doesn't matter which spokes you buy, the result will be the same: If the rim is off-set the spoke length from side to side has to be different. To achieve that, the tension has to be different. The difference in tension increases more or less exponentially as the off-set increases. The furthest you can theoretically go is when the rim holes are vertically over the hub flange (perpendicular to the axle), when you would need infinite tension in that side and zero on the other, which is impossible.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by d8veh » Sep 17 2015 6:48am

Motomech, I'm trying to figure out if the off-set is easier to deal with on a 24" wheel because you have a bigger angle to play with between the spokes and the axle. On a bigger wheel, the spokes are closer to pependicular before you start, though a small angle change makes a bigger off-set at the rim. Who wants to do the calculation?

Those drawings of the Q100C don't look right to me. I seem to rember the same drawing on the BMSB site showed it as 142mm. I know mine took a lot of levering and springing to get in in 135mm drop-outs.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 17 2015 7:22am

d8veh wrote:. The furthest you can theoretically go is when the rim holes are vertically over the hub flange (perpendicular to the axle), when you would need infinite tension in that side and zero on the other, which is impossible.
You may be right, I'm no expert. But it seems I have seen plenty of road bikes with wide cassettes where it looks like the cassette side spokes have almost a vertical run to the rim. Always looked a bit funky to me, but these are expensive race bikes.

Is the cassette that much bigger than the freewheel Q100? I could easily put a freewheel Q100 in a 120mm drop out, although to be safe, I replaced one of the spacers on the 135mm motor out to bring it down to the 120mm size I needed.
q100 135mm fork.JPG
q100 135mm fork.JPG (53.21 KiB) Viewed 3259 times
Q100 120mm rear single speed.JPG
Q100 120mm rear single speed.JPG (73.96 KiB) Viewed 3259 times
Last edited by chas58 on Sep 17 2015 2:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by motomech » Sep 17 2015 12:32pm

d8veh wrote:Motomech, I'm trying to figure out if the off-set is easier to deal with on a 24" wheel because you have a bigger angle to play with between the spokes and the axle. On a bigger wheel, the spokes are closer to pependicular before you start, though a small angle change makes a bigger off-set at the rim. Who wants to do the calculation?

Those drawings of the Q100C don't look right to me. I seem to rember the same drawing on the BMSB site showed it as 142mm. I know mine took a lot of levering and springing to get in in 135mm drop-outs.
My two CST drop-out widths are;
Original-shoulder to shoulder=137 m/m(w/ 9-speed cassette=138 m/m)
Akiema-135 m/m(haven't used it)

Dave, you know my math skills :roll:

This worked fine for me(both frt. and CST);

Alex DM 24, 24inch
Dt Swiss 2.0 X 210 m/m
2-Cross
I thought I might need two different lenght spokes and during assembly and I payed close attention that neither the spoke ends poked thru the nipple or there were exposed threads below the nipple.
Neither happened
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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docnjoj   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5786
Joined: Sep 29 2007 5:26pm
Location: Fairhope AL

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by docnjoj » Sep 18 2015 4:58pm

I may have just fried my rear q100H riding home uphill with a flat. I have a spare q100 but I like the H power. When are you importing q100h for freewheel? I'm hoping to just use the innards so I don't need to make a new wheel.
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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docnjoj   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5786
Joined: Sep 29 2007 5:26pm
Location: Fairhope AL

Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by docnjoj » Sep 21 2015 6:04am

Not fried. That Cute 100H is a tough little motor. Still runs fine after 2 days rest. No strange noises and plenty of power. 1.5 uphill miles @4-5% grade, 90 degree heat and a flat tire on the trike causing lots of drag. I didn't dare check the temperature of the motor.
Amazing!
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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