Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

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Jasonv8z   1 W

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Sep 22 2015 3:22pm

Getting ready to order more prototypes. After talking to the factory, they apparently can make a motor with higher copper fill. The standard motor has 11mm of copper (see picture below). I'm told they can wind up to 17.5mm of copper. I'm not sure where they get room in the stator, but I feel it's worth testing out. The downside is these motors are only available in 142mm freewheel / 145mm cassette motors.

To make this motor fit my bicycle, I plan on reducing the brake side axle clearance by 10mm, effectively making it a rim brake only motor. Since the drive side flange is in the same place as a 135mm motor, the drive side spokes should be at the same tension as before. The non-drive side spokes will be lower tension, making this rim less stiff/weaker. It's not ideal, but hopefully it's no worse than a non-powered hub with small spoke flanges.

As an alternative, their new cassette has 8.3mm of threads for the cassette lockring. We could possibly machine away ~4mm from the end of the cassette and still have enough to attach a lockring. You'd lose the smallest cog on your cassette, but gain 4mm of offset to build a stronger wheel.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 22 2015 4:24pm

While you are at it, I would be intererested in having some good bearings (standard "formula" bearings is fine). I'm not sure what these come with, but something smoother and freer spinning would be very nice.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by motomech » Sep 22 2015 6:22pm


As an alternative, their new cassette has 8.3mm of threads for the cassette lockring. We could possibly machine away ~4mm from the end of the cassette and still have enough to attach a lockring. You'd lose the smallest cog on your cassette, but gain 4mm of offset to build a stronger wheel.
I had that idea about a month ago, but I don't think I explained it well, as nobody followed what I was talking about.
I wrote;
I believe the CST can be easily narrowed to 124 mm.

Notice that the bearing is recessed in the spline boss on the cover on the right. The kit supplies 2) washers and 2) nuts on the axle to bring the drop-out width to 135 mm. Leave off the 2) nuts and trim the spline boss back flush with the bearing.
Now the spline boss is 12 mm shorter and one would have to go with a single gear with spacers or perhaps, fabricate a custom low gear count(3, 4 or 5 gears)cluster.
I was sort of thinking about building a custom cassette using spacers from Sheldon Brown and machining a grove at the end of the spline to locate it with an external C lock ring, like an early Hyperglide .
He has other options for building custom cassettes here;
http://sheldonbrown.com/chainline-multi.html#spoke
But I am not a bicycle guy and was a little fuzzy on how to build a custom cassette.
But, I just looked at the SB site again and there is an "off the shelf" solution to shortening the spline;
126 m/m cluster width with an 11T sm. gear.
http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=3465
Might be able to use this and still retain it with the original threaded lock ring.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by neptronix » Sep 23 2015 3:54am

I love this quest to get the best small geared motor possible built.. keep up the good work, sir :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by chas58 » Sep 23 2015 7:36am

motomech wrote: I was sort of thinking about building a custom cassette using spacers from Sheldon Brown and machining a grove at the end of the spline to locate it with an external C lock ring, like an early Hyperglide .
He has other options for building custom cassettes here;
http://sheldonbrown.com/chainline-multi.html#spoke
But I am not a bicycle guy and was a little fuzzy on how to build a custom cassette.
But, I just looked at the SB site again and there is an "off the shelf" solution to shortening the spline;
126 m/m cluster width with an 11T sm. gear.
http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=3465
Might be able to use this and still retain it with the original threaded lock ring.
I’m a bicycle guy, maybe I can help.

I think you lost me with “spline boss” but I get what you are saying now. I converted my motor to single speed use (120mm drop out) by changing the spacers in there. Works perfectly for a single speed chain line.

You can purchase free wheels in 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, & 8 speed configurations. All are pretty cheap except the 2 speed, which is about $100 (go figure).

Switching to cassettes, you can purchase a “single speed” conversion kit and create just about any combination of gears you want. Most of the cassettes I have, have removable cogs for the smaller gears, which is what you would want anyway (for an e-bike). You can buy single cogs too, but that can get expensive. You just have to make sure you get the spacing between cogs right for it to work with index shifters.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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docnjoj   100 GW

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by docnjoj » Sep 23 2015 5:44pm

I think it is really no tragedy if you can't get indexed shifts. Many shifters, particularly bar ends like I use can be run in "no index" mode, like the old days downtube shifters. They work fine with just a little practice.
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by outsidediameter » Oct 30 2015 11:43pm

Helllo all, I have learned so much from you guys... I know, a little information..is. any way I've gotten q100s frnt and rear from elife along w the 12a minis, probably should've snagged the 14 ampers or the17a but I'm going to try my luck soldering the shunts. these fit nice in the 40's style horn tanks I'glassing up to hold a 10s 7p panasonic 29f li pack (5x14 vertical batt config.) I'm using old style twin bar (think aluminum schwinn panther). The lithim ion's supposed to deliver@ 30a cont. and I dont want to fry the 100s right away. They are the 36v 328rpmers in black .Nice and light ,really sound promising on the bench laced 14g stainless 3 cross on araya 24x1.50s and some cream 3" felt quick bricks that just fit in my 26" cruiser.I'm thinking just the throttle and f\r discs w those hidden sensors for more stealth.The prototype w a ? 500w geared on a 29er and just 5ah hk lipos and pas pulls my 200lb ass around well over 20 on the flats, can't wait to see what the twins deliver.I will post some pics when I figure out how if anyones interested .Probably in the wrong forum anyway ,not sure of the lamination thickness

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by slowhands » Oct 31 2015 4:56pm

When eddy current losses get too high with laminated stators, why not consider powdered iron? You can cast it to any shape. It has negligible loss, but lower permeability so you need thicker stators. Just an idea from left field.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by neptronix » Nov 01 2015 9:36am

Any update on this? I'd really like to get my hands on one of these bad boys one day.. a winding 20mph on 36v in a 26" wheel would be solid.. fitting 135mm dropouts is certainly a requirement.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Nov 03 2015 7:12pm

Rebump.

Yeah. I'm still interested too.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by slowhands » Nov 04 2015 12:13am

It'd want one too.

If you have any influence, get them to support interchangeable axles, from 9mm, 10mm, 12mm and 15mm diameter. Such a mother could be used existing bikes and in the new bikes that have 142mm x 12mm rear axles and 100mm x 15mm front axles. There currently are no hub motors for this application and the seller would have a monopoly for a time.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Nov 12 2015 4:20pm

Sorry for the delay. I've received new Q100 145mm motors with 0.35 laminations and supposedly tighter windings in 200 and 330 RPM in 36 and 32 hole format. See 145mm motor (right)

Image

To make them fit and still have a disk brake option, I plan on reducing the non drive side axle by ~6mm and designing an offset disk brake/carrier combination. The non-offset versions are currently sold as "floating rotors" even though the aluminum carriers and steel friction plates are rigidly mounted unlike like floating car rotors. Basically, I'll be designing a middle section with a slight offset to give us needed disc brake room. Any more than ~6mm, and my bb7 caliper is in danger of hitting the spokes, so we'll have to spread the frame by 4mm. Another option is to go with a 180mm rotor and increase the offset, although I'm not sure how many people's bikes that would fit.

Image

I've also inquired about a fwd version of this motor which I plan on converting to thru axle. In theory, it shouldn't need an offset rotor at all, and the thru axle will keep people from breaking their dropouts. As a side note, MTB's are going to 148x12 rears and 110x15 fronts now. A 148x12 rear would pretty much solve this whole fitment issue.
Last edited by Jasonv8z on Nov 12 2015 4:55pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Nov 12 2015 4:52pm

I looked into various powdered iron cores. I don't think it has much benefit with a conventional radial motor at the speeds we run, but a powdered core could be beneficial in an axial flux motor. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time or money to develop a motor from scratch. Right now we're stuck with parts bin engineering.
slowhands wrote:When eddy current losses get too high with laminated stators, why not consider powdered iron? You can cast it to any shape. It has negligible loss, but lower permeability so you need thicker stators. Just an idea from left field.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 28 2015 10:54am

I have never been into the road biking phenomenon, but there are a lot of people who are into that. This motor is something that we can "make it happen" if...we can agree on what would be the best seller, and then make a persuasive argument to potential "group buy" customers for the first batch.

However, it would be easy for me to make a huge mistake, so I need advice from the posters who are the most likely customers for a light road bike with a small geared hubmotor.

Desirable configuration:

130mm wide drop-out width
Dual-reduction Q100H size (larger motors later)
0.35 laminations
Cassette instead of freewheel (narrower Shimano style freehub?)
Temp sensor
20-MPH (32 km/h) at 36V, when fully loaded (24 MPH unloaded?)

non-vital improvements as an option, if possible:

Cable exits axle inside the drop-outs

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by neptronix » Dec 01 2015 6:38am

bmsbattery seems to be selling some 135mm dropout-compatible Q128H/Q128C motors now.

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/768-q1 ... oltage-36v

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/775-q1 ... e-kit.html

So, it appears that all this stuff will fit into these motor cases.. :mrgreen:

I'd certainly like to have one of your 0.35mm lamination motors by spring though.. these BMSBattery motors are about 80% efficient at best and i am just not interested in that..
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Dec 01 2015 4:13pm

I ordered 2 of those 128s at 135mm. From the dyno data I received, I wasn't overly impressed given the extra 1kg of weight. I was expecting 50% improvement given 50% more weight. Instead, it was pretty close to the 100H performance. I'll try to find the dyno data they sent so I can post it. That being said, I haven't tried them personally. I have a bunch of parts to build my own dyno, but I've gotten side tracked with non bike stuff.

The holdup with the motors I am working to build is just the disk brake issue. If people are willing to use rim brakes, I can place an order with Aikema and start shipping when they are received.

To clarify, the two motor combinations available today are:
1) Cassette, rim brake only
2) Freewheel, disk brake

If you guys are really caught up on on cassettes, I believe it will be better to custom build a new frame with 145mm reinforced dropouts. The custom rotor I proposed will likely be over $100 in small quantities, whereas an aluminum frame will likely be around $200 drop shipped, or $500 for carbon.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Dec 01 2015 4:28pm

Thanks for the updates.

I'm still interested in these custom motors. What Spinning Magnets is describing is close enough to what I want, that I won't confuse matters by suggesting another configuration.

I'm happy to wait as long as needed now though. I just switched to Justin's Phaserunner, and that's given me a bit of a boost to satisfy my endless tinkering addiction.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Sunder » Dec 01 2015 4:32pm

Jasonv8z wrote: To clarify, the two motor combinations available today are:
1) Cassette, rim brake only
2) Freewheel, disk brake
Wait, I misread that first pass... You're saying that a cassette version with rim brakes and thinner laminations are available now? If so, I have a couple questions:

1. What was the final lamination thickness?
2. What do you think the max power you could run through that is?
3. What's the winding speed?
4. How much will they be, shipped to Aus?

Thanks,
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 07 2015 2:07am

Jason,
Any progress ?
Jasonv8z wrote: If you guys are really caught up on on cassettes, I believe it will be better to custom build a new frame with 145mm reinforced dropouts. The custom rotor I proposed will likely be over $100 in small quantities, whereas an aluminum frame will likely be around $200 drop shipped, or $500 for carbon.
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Jan 11 2016 3:33am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by motomech » Dec 07 2015 8:09am

60 Volts on a CST 201 low speed motor would have a top speed around 24 mph(26" wheel).
The Amps would have to be kept low, but even with a 15 A controller, one would be looking at a 700 Watt ceiling.
Care on long hills would be prudent.
You keep going on and on about 10 and 11 speed cassettes, why?
I use a 9-speed on my CST because that is what the donor bike had, but I never use all 9 gears, more like 4 or 5.
With more powerful systems, It's more like 3 gears.
It seems to me, that unless custom ratios are used for a special reason, more than 5 gears is just taking up space.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 07 2015 11:14am

unless custom ratios are used for a special reason, more than 5 gears is just taking up space
I keep seeing this phenomenon frequently. Once even a small amount of power is added, there is a natural human tendency to want to shift less. This is the reason for my interest in a thin-lam version of a cassette. As noted by others, the larger 128 is not a significant boost in power, and the Q100H has a higher reduction, which would be more efficient, and also the smaller size of the Q100H is more stealthy.

Having a freehub would allow the rider to choose the specific tooth-counts he wanted for the cassette. If you were only using 3 or 5 sprockets, you could slide them left or right to help your chainline, too...

It would also definitely need a temp sensor

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by 1boris » Dec 07 2015 12:28pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
unless custom ratios are used for a special reason, more than 5 gears is just taking up space
I keep seeing this phenomenon frequently. Once even a small amount of power is added, there is a natural human tendency to want to shift less. This is the reason for my interest in a thin-lam version of a cassette. As noted by others, the larger 128 is not a , and the Q100H has a higher reduction, which would be more efficient, and also the smaller size of the Q100H is more stealthy.

Having a freehub would allow the rider to choose the specific tooth-counts he wanted for the cassette. If you were only using 3 or 5 sprockets, you could slide them left or right to help your chainline, too...

It would also definitely need a temp sensor
I can assure you the q128H 800w is a significant boost in power.Very strong hill climber even at 48v 18 amp and top speed at throttle only 43 kmh.And it doesent get hot on steep hills.You must confuse it with the older q128 which was gutless.

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/776-q1 ... results=20

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 07 2015 4:00pm

The reason for 10 and 11 speed cassetts/cogs are many, not just one, .... But for Many Reasons .

First : the reason to want to use the smallest and lightest weight hub motor, like the Q100 , is to use it on a light weight , efficient Road Bike.
Road bikes are made for maximum efficiency. They have for the last 5 + years been using 11 speed cassettes/cogs and 10 speed cassettes/cogs
for longer than that.
The best/strongest Roadies, that have almost the same amount of power delivered to the drivetrain, about that of a small watt hub motor ... with their strong legs and super human cardiovascular systems, use 10/ 11 speed cassette bikes !
If 5 or 8 was enough they would be using that , but they are not ! they are Using 10 / 11 speed cassettes/cog sets .
Also
to do the most easiest and efficient conversion on a Road Bike , ( money and time saved on the conversion ) is to use the existing Road Bike STI Shifter/Brake Levers set.
Meaning 10 speed or 11 speed Shifters/Derailleurs/Chains/Cassette/Chainrings . What ever came on the bike .
Only Shimano still makes a 9 speed STI shifter set but is falling by the wayside as it is not as long lasting or good shifting as the 10/11 speed STI Shifter Sets , Sram just has 10 and 11 speed STI shifters now .
Also
Although You might be able to use an old friction road shift lever on a Small Tubing Steel Frame down tube from bikes of 15-20 and older years ago, so as to use only 8 speed cassette,
the newer Road Bikes have large aluminium downtubes and large diameter carbon downtubes, that do not accept the mounting bracket of a friction shifter. So Again to make everything simple, Use the 10/11 speed STI shifter/brake set that came with the bike.

Then comes the Biggest reason to use the 10/11 speed cassettes that have close gear ratio's
It , SAVES my Knees !!!
I live in a area with hills/mountains,
I use all 20 gears on my Road Bike to keep the cadence right , and keep my knees from hurting so much that I can not ride .
With a Hub motor it is the same, not so much on flat ground , you could , in my case only use 8 cogs on the back , IF, I only lived in Holland and never road my bike in any Hilly/Mountain area.
But I do , Not, live in Holland, I live in a Hilly Area, Mountains in reality.
Also
With my Mac 6 t hub motor ( that works fine on a heavy mountain bike frame ) I use , ALL the rear Cogs on my bike when riding up a hill , in order to not burn up my hub motor, that way I keep the cadence my Knees need, and also keep the hub motor
from bogging down with too many amps imput. By using all the rear cogs going up hills, I have stopped at the top of a hill, and the Mac is not at all Hot, that is because I am keeping the throttle less than 1/2 and using all the rear cogs
to keep it cool, and at the same time to keep my knees from getting injured .

So you see there are Many, reasons to use the 10 or 11 speed drive train that my , and most newer bikes, come with.





motomech wrote:60 Volts on a CST 201 low speed motor would have a top speed around 24 mph(26" wheel).
The Amps would have to be kept low, but even with a 15 A controller, one would be looking at a 700 Watt ceiling.
Care on long hills would be prudent.
You keep going on and on about 10 and 11 speed cassettes, why?
I use a 9-speed on my CST because that is what the donor bike had, but I never use all 9 gears, more like 4 or 5.
With more powerful systems, It's more like 3 gears.
It seems to me, that unless custom ratios are used for a special reason, more than 5 gears is just taking up space.
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Jan 11 2016 3:54am, edited 1 time in total.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Jasonv8z » Dec 09 2015 1:01pm

Sunder wrote: 1. What was the final lamination thickness?
2. What do you think the max power you could run through that is?
3. What's the winding speed?
4. How much will they be, shipped to Aus?

Thanks,
1. 0.35mm
2. More than Q100H. I haven't pushed the motor to it's limit yet, but put 580W through mine continuous and it barely even gets warm.
3. Going to start with 200 and 330RPM. If you guys want 260RPM, I don't mind ordering that as well.
4. As these are prototypes and I am depending on you guys for feedback, I'm willing to sell the first batch at my cost (around $100 USD + shipping). Shipping to Australia would be around $70. I've been contacted by other members wanting to distribute this motor in Australia which would save on shipping cost, although their markup might be higher.

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Re: Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Post by Ykick » Dec 17 2015 8:46am

Sorry to barge into this thread but hoping it may lead to parts I need for my rear Q128H with stripped planetary (white plastic) gears?

I started it’s own thread if someone would prefer to reply there instead:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=74945

Thanks!
Talent must not be wasted.... Those who have talent must hug it, embrace it, nurture it and share it lest it be taken away from you as fast as it was loaned to you.

- Frank Sinatra

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