Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

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Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 23 2015 10:49am

Looking around at used bikes, and even some new bikes, I am seeing more and more bikes, with a rear 142mm through axle.

There is no slot on those frames in which to just slide in a Hub Motor .

I have had to pass up some good bikes at a good price because I just have not figured out how to put the standard rear hub motor onto the bike.

I have a Mac rear hub motor I would like to use, or the little Q100 C CST ,

BTW , these bikes I speak of , also have the BB30 or Press Fit Bearings BB86 , Etc, so the Befang BBS02 will not work, Besides it is Heavy at 8+ pounds.
So until someone makes a 4-6 lb mid drive , that will work with modern bottom brackets, I will have to use a rear hub motor .

Any pictures of a rear hub motor on a nice bike with the 142mm through axle ?
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by Ykick » Aug 23 2015 11:11am

My Q128C is about 140mm shoulder to shoulder on the axle and you can play with or without the nut over the spacer to increase/decrease that dimension a few mm.

I guess I don’t get your problem? Even aluminum can spread/pinch 5mm or so? Steel much more.

***EDIT*** Pardon my dumbass'ness I get it now -
Slide2.JPG
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ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 23 2015 11:41am

The axle's on the hub motors are long, so spreading out the drop outs would be difficult , at least with the Mac.

also

On a typical 9mm rear drop out on a bicycle , it is slotted, where as on a through axle frame , it is round, ( see above picture posted by Ykick ) so I at least have figured out that I would have to have a machinist make me two spacers that are round on the outside and slotted on the inside to fit into the frame.

Then a different outside nut on the drive side . ( see above diagram posted by Ykick to picture in your mind the three things I talk about here )

Also I thought about having to have made some slotted washers between the inside of the frame frame and hub motor , so when having to do a tire or tube change, the slotted spacer/washer can be lifted out so that the hub motor can slide out to one side , then down so that the other side can be slid out of the drop out.

So I think I have figured it out, but really need to see how someone else did it , with pictures to see how my ideas would work.
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by Hillhater » Aug 24 2015 4:47am

I doubt you will get a standard hub motor to work with a thro axle frame without a lot of mods to the frame...unless the frame has replaceable axle fittings.??
I believe there are some new hub motors being designed for thro axle fitting,...but i have yet to see them.
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by dogman dan » Aug 24 2015 6:49am

What you have to look for, is rear dropouts that can be unbolted from the frame. Then you can take off the round dropout piece, and bolt on a home made replacement that has the slot for a motor.

While you are at it, make that plate longer, so you get a few more inches longer wheelbase. That will help handling at 50 mph. I saw this done on slowpoke cycles personal bikes, it worked really good.

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by MadRhino » Aug 24 2015 8:52am

Just make a set of through axle torque plates. Bolt them on the actual drop out material of the bike. If you want the same geometry, you can cut them open to let the motor axle slide in. Alternatively, if you build longer or higher, you can use the through axle on the bike as part of the fastening for your custom steel drop out plates.
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by MadRhino » Aug 24 2015 9:07am

dogman dan wrote:What you have to look for, is rear dropouts that can be unbolted from the frame. Then you can take off the round dropout piece, and bolt on a home made replacement that has the slot for a motor.
Few DH bikes are made with bolt-on drop out plates. This was designed for variable geometry, but the weight penalty kept this good idea from launching really. But our torque plates that need to bolt on the swing arm already, gain a neat advantage to be variable through axle drop out plates.

Fancy work to make a set variable, Easier to make two or 3 different for... Acceleration, Mountain, 20", 24" or 26", etc... Also making room for a different motor or fitting a big controller between the wheel and the seat tube, or to mod suspension travel and ratio, correcting an offset or letting it fit a bigger rubber... So many good reasons to express your skills with plain steel plate. :wink:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 24 2015 11:01am

The many mods equation is the reason I have not bought a through axle bike. If It can be done at a good enough price, I would have someone make the parts for me.

I want to know more about new motors being designed for rear through axle 142x12mm , I am seeing more and more Through Axle bikes all the time.
when I look at the Hub Motors on the Market now for sale, I shake my head every day. This is 2015 all ready and the designers of these hub motors, and mid drives are still selling products that are outdated for the current models of good quality bikes . and when I say current I mean by many years now. In Reality , the hub motors and the befang bbso2 are for bike designs 10 years old and older .
Rear Through Axles have been around for several years. front through axles have been around for over 10 years, the BB30 bottom bracket has been around for nearly 10 years .


Hillhater wrote:I doubt you will get a standard hub motor to work with a thro axle frame without a lot of mods to the frame...unless the frame has replaceable axle fittings.??
I believe there are some new hub motors being designed for thro axle fitting,...but i have yet to see them.
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It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by cwah » Aug 24 2015 1:40pm

Can't you fit a bbs02?
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 24 2015 4:40pm

I wish !

The answer is No, Befang has not even figured out yet that many good bikes for the last 7-10 years now have either a
1) BB30 BB Frame
2) BB86 BB Frame
3) BB92 BB Frame
or
4) Praxis Works press fit BB , Frames made to use the Praxis Works Crankset.

and I have been reading that the bbso2 is a very heavy 8.5 pounds . so a better mid - drive is needed anyway .

The designers in China, must be used to seeing only old , antiquated types of Bike Frames, and have No Clue as to the current trends, ( actually for several years now ), the current trends of more bikes each year having the better bottom bracket set up, and even through axles for that matter ! The Chinese are really asleep in regards to newer better products that are needed for the DIY people throughout the modern world !
This is the time for the rest of the world to build better products . ( Mid-Drives, and Hub Motors ) since the Chinese are years behind the curve on this matter . Those of you in Europe, and the U.S. here is your opportunity. there is a big need for better products, or else we will all be stuck with wimpy , and over priced for many of us, products made by the current e-bike mgf's .

Where I live in the states , most good Mountain Bikes , have 1 of the 4 BB Type of frames that I listed above, for the last several years now.

And Good Quality Road Bikes have the BB30 system for 10 or more years now !









cwah wrote:Can't you fit a bbs02?
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by Hillhater » Aug 24 2015 10:54pm

ScooterMan101 wrote: I want to know more about new motors being designed for rear through axle
check this video at about 1:12:0
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =1&t=71925
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 25 2015 1:12am

Hillhater,

That through axle hub motor is exactly what I am talking about / have been thinking about for quite a while.
Justin is also addressing the heavy weight problems I have been talking about.
and
For several months I have been wondering how I am going to put a throttle on a Road Drop Handle Bar.
I thought of cutting a thumb throttle in half then glue/taping it once it is around the bar,
or getting a potentiometer and making my own housing,
But
Justin is working on that problem as well, look at 1hr 32 minutes on the video. He is making what I want.

Justin if you are reading this please work more on these two products. The Through Axle Hub Motor, and the universal fit throttle ! I want one of those throttles , like Tomorrow !

>
Hillhater wrote:
ScooterMan101 wrote: I want to know more about new motors being designed for rear through axle
check this video at about 1:12:0
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =1&t=71925
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by dogman dan » Aug 25 2015 5:39am

Too bad the bolt on dropout plate did not catch on, I thought it had on the high end stuff.

I'm not sure what model bike those ones I saw were. If you will just bolt torque plates to a frame, then you will be looking for a frame with enough meat around the axle to allow drilling some holes. I would think that at least one of those through axle holes would also have to be cut, if not both, to allow the 10mm flat axle in.

So that's a pretty permanent mod.

The option of building a complete custom swing arm remains.

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 25 2015 12:39pm

Only a few models had the bolt on dropout, and I forgot what make/models they were.

I had been looking at hardtails , for budget constraint reasons, However with a full suspension, I have been thinking for some time now
that we in the DIY E-bike world need a frame that has a rear swingarm just like a motorcycle, that way we could use very strong motors, and
be able to change a tire or a flat much easier.
There was one bike like that years ago called the Tomac 203. I have been looking for one on Craigslist, but have not found one yet.
em3ev is selling a frame, but after getting a good fork and shipping, the cost is over the price for a complete used full suspension bike anyway.

I hope that the Idea you and I , and others have as well in regards to a motorcycle style rear swing arms catches on. A swing arm long enough to accept a 24 inch wheel all the way up to a 29er + wheel. ( 29er + is 3 inch wide tire )

>

dogman dan wrote:Too bad the bolt on dropout plate did not catch on, I thought it had on the high end stuff.

I'm not sure what model bike those ones I saw were. If you will just bolt torque plates to a frame, then you will be looking for a frame with enough meat around the axle to allow drilling some holes. I would think that at least one of those through axle holes would also have to be cut, if not both, to allow the 10mm flat axle in.

So that's a pretty permanent mod.

The option of building a complete custom swing arm remains.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by slowhands » Nov 03 2015 5:18pm

Some high end mountain bikes are going to 142mm x 12mm through rear axles, with 100mm x 15mm through axles in front. These are stiffer and stronger. And of course the bike makers can charge a lot more for something new and different. Bike makers love that.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/02/07/tec ... -big-idea/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv6nJ_DXVeE

If enough pro's win races on this axle size, it will increase the trend to the new axle size. The side effect for ebikers is fewer new high end frames will fit existing hub motors. I'm not convinced they are better, but the herd may follow the marketing hype. Wait and see. Anyway, that's one way of looking at it, fewer new frames for existing motors.

But flip that around. It's an opportunity. The first hub motor maker who gets it and makes a 142mm x 12mm axle motor will make a mint. How hard can it be? Design the hub to accept a variety of axle sizes from say 15mm down to 9mm by simply changing bearings or adding shims. Or maybe there already is one, and I missed it. Anyway, it's an interesting scenario to watch.

Another bike maker scam .. err I mean improvement ... is the so called 27.5" wheel. Creates the impression it's half way between the 26 and 29. Get your tape. They measure 27" diameter, barely larger than the 26" wheel and tire. Hmmm... Could it be that again, they want to increase prices and have to think of something new. It's hard. Bikes are mature technology. But these guys are slick.

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/tec ... ch27-5/94/

The truth is 26" wheels will always be lighter and more agile than 27.5" wheels. Think for yourself. No doubt the new high end bikes will have many nice features but are they really worth the money?

Not for me. I'm happy with my 26" mtn bike and 29" road bike.
Last edited by slowhands on Nov 03 2015 7:09pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 03 2015 6:48pm

Well , a "29" er is just a 700c rim with a fat tyre, so that is just a rip off to sell same old tech.
And don't forget there always was the 28" rim ( 1,1/4 , tyre) on original commuter type bikes.
MTB's were the first to use 26" rims I believe ?
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ideate » Jul 25 2017 7:53am

Grave dig. It's mid 2017 now.. Has there been any progress with hub motors supporting 142x12 through axle?

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by SlowCo » Jul 25 2017 8:05am

ideate wrote:Grave dig. It's mid 2017 now.. Has there been any progress with hub motors supporting 142x12 through axle?
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 25 2017 12:03pm

2 years now since I started this thread, and still no Rear , Geared Through Axle hub motor !
ideate wrote:Grave dig. It's mid 2017 now.. Has there been any progress with hub motors supporting 142x12 through axle?

That Through Axle Hub Motor from Grin is a Front , and it is a heavy DD motor.

Even more Through Axle Bikes/Frames being sold this year.

Who wants to make a 2.5-3.5 Kg. Rear , Geared, Through Axle Hub Motor, that will accept from 8 speed - up to the current 11 speed or even the new 12 cassettes ?
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by Chalo » Jul 25 2017 1:00pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Even more Through Axle Bikes/Frames being sold this year.
They're still gimmicky bullshit that doesn't serve a need or fix a problem. They're nothing more than yet another form of pointless moto-fetishism.

Regular slotted dropouts will be with us forever. Just use a bike that has them-- they're not hard to find, nor expensive. You can even get a great deal on one from some chump who thinks he must "upgrade" to the latest new hotness instead.

On a related note, Surly Gnot-boost dropouts offer another way to make simple and effective torque arms, by fitting them to the stepped slot on the inboard side.

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by MadRhino » Jul 25 2017 7:44pm

ideate wrote:Grave dig. It's mid 2017 now.. Has there been any progress with hub motors supporting 142x12 through axle?
The progress is that DH racing bikes that had bolt-on drop plates are getting older, and cheaper.

They are ideal for a hub motor, because making through axle bolt-on torque plates, is giving you variable geometry and ease of rear wheel service. Most of them were in the 150 mm wide era, and that is letting you fit almost any hub.
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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ideate » Aug 04 2017 8:20am

Chalo wrote:
ScooterMan101 wrote:Even more Through Axle Bikes/Frames being sold this year.
They're still gimmicky bullshit that doesn't serve a need or fix a problem. They're nothing more than yet another form of pointless moto-fetishism.

Regular slotted dropouts will be with us forever. Just use a bike that has them-- they're not hard to find, nor expensive. You can even get a great deal on one from some chump who thinks he must "upgrade" to the latest new hotness instead. ...
What the hell are you talking about m8? You sound like a boring old grandpa commuter that's never experienced the thrill of real mtb'ing. While I do agree that the industry comes up with some wankerish marketing about new standards, a 142/150 through axle is way better than some crappy 9mm QR rubbish.

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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by ideate » Aug 04 2017 8:23am

MadRhino wrote:
They are ideal for a hub motor, because making through axle bolt-on torque plates..
What are these torque plates you speak of? Sounds interesting..


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Re: Rear Hub Motor on a 142mm through axle : How ?

Post by Chalo » Aug 04 2017 9:24am

ideate wrote:
Chalo wrote:They're still gimmicky bullshit that doesn't serve a need or fix a problem. They're nothing more than yet another form of pointless moto-fetishism.
What the hell are you talking about m8? You sound like a boring old grandpa commuter that's never experienced the thrill of real mtb'ing. While I do agree that the industry comes up with some wankerish marketing about new standards, a 142/150 through axle is way better than some crappy 9mm QR rubbish.
How are they better? Please tell me. I build up and service bikes that have through axles, and though I can assure you that round hole dropouts create new problems, I can't find any way they actually improve on slotted dropouts. Remember that a traditional 10mm rear axle (there is no 9mm rear) can be spaced to 150mm or whatever width you please, so you can't count that as an advantage.

The practical limit of axle diameter for slotted rear dropouts is 19mm, so a 12mm through axle isn't an advantage in that regard, either.

Through axle rear hubs make for inherently weaker freehub bodies, by taking up space that could have been used for a more robust ratchet mechanism-- like the regular kind.

Through axle frames take tiny misalignment issues and turn them into show-stoppers, where you can't even install the wheel. I have dealt with this issue on brand new bikes.

Through axle dropouts effectively prevent the use of internally geared hubs, coaster brake hubs, and all but one model of hub motor. So they take away options, but they don't add any new ones.

Just because you can find a certain feature on a motorcycle (or truck, helicopter, racing car) doesn't make it beneficial for a bicycle. There doesn't seem to be any real disadvantage to through axles on front wheels (nor any real advantage), but in rear wheels they seem to have only disadvantages while offering nothing new.
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