New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Post Reply
primitive machine   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 25 2015 12:46am

New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by primitive machine » Aug 25 2015 2:07am

Hello. I am a machine engineer from Sweden needing some advice from electronics specialists in here. I have read a LOT trying to understand E-bikes bout I am still not yet quite sure. For a couple of weeks ago I bought a new 36V, 8,8ah 250w MTB from biltema, see picture 1. Its a copy of a copy of a copy (diavelo bragi atb, protanium etc.) It has a 8FUN rear motor and C965 display. The controller is an LSW70A6G, se Picture 2, 3, 4 and 5.

The motor helps me pretty good up to about 23 km/h and then the assist decreases and turn off at 25 km/h. When I type the controllers password in (1919) the motor doesnt turn of until the set value, up to 45 km/h. But still after abot 23 km/h the assist from the motor is almost to low to sense. So I assume the speed limit is also set in the controller.

Now for the questions if anyone helpful out there could answer me. I want the motor to help me above 25 km/h, around 32 km/h would be nice or by the displays command. As you see in Picture 2 the is a separate White wire for connecting to a computer and programming as I understand (board with Infineon chip I hope). Could I use the software intended for programming Bafang BBS01/BBS02 or the software parameter designer.exe (no speed setting by displays command in this one?)?

If any more information/data regarding the details is needed I will give you that.

Regards
Attachments
1.jpg
1
1.jpg (151.94 KiB) Viewed 2061 times
2.jpg
2
2.jpg (245.65 KiB) Viewed 2061 times
3.jpg
3
3.jpg (187.32 KiB) Viewed 5703 times
4.jpg
4
5.jpg
5

jesusjesus   10 W

10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Jun 21 2014 2:42am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by jesusjesus » Aug 25 2015 3:44am

hello fellow Scandinavian

sounds to me the problem is the voltage (36v -max rpm speed) and the wattage (torque). remember 250w is just 1/3 of a horsepower.
the mechanism with the limiter is just for legal reasons, not for tuning.

SlowCo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 938
Joined: Jan 05 2015 5:43pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by SlowCo » Aug 25 2015 4:07am

If I go to the website printed on the back of your controller board and look at contact I get this:
http://www.lsdzs.net/Contact/&FrontComC ... tId=9.html
Maybe Jane is able and willing to help?

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34413
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by dogman dan » Aug 25 2015 5:19am

Since it's built for Europe, you very likely have a combination of a low power (amps) controller, and a motor that will only spin at lower rpm due to the winding chosen.

It's not really made to go fast, or have 1hp, like many ebikes designed for US laws do. So, a controller able to take 48v could be the only way to make that motor turn faster. Combined with a battery more able to handle 20 amps continuous, as well.

New controller, new battery, lots of hassle to get it all to work. Do you see where I'm heading? If you can sell this bike and get most of your money back, you might be better off to start over completely. Put a kit intended for use in the USA on a bike, and have 1000w, 40 kph. The key item to replace is really, the motor.

If you do jack the bike you have to 48v, expect about 5 kph more speed, and 25% more power, assuming the controller amps is similar. So unless 5 kph is enough more speed, you won't be that happy with just going to 48v.

BTW, as motors wind up to full speed, they do pull less hard. So there is some drop off in how much pull you feel with any strength setup as it hits cruise speed.

Joachim   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 302
Joined: Jul 30 2015 1:02pm

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by Joachim » Aug 25 2015 5:26am

max 13 A and 36 volt wil do a good 400watt peak power.
More speed you wil go to 48 volt batery......maby the controller is able to run 63 volt?look @ the caps.

The 8fun motor is not for hi speed but i think can handle max 800watt peak and 35km/h whitout burn it.

8fun have also a 500watt motor for a good 260 Euro incl wheel/spokes/gears,

The bike looks nice for a biltema bike :wink:

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34413
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by dogman dan » Aug 25 2015 5:45am

Oh yes, the motor will handle 800w easy. But if it is the very slow rpm wind, it will be sort of slow even on 48v.

primitive machine   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 25 2015 12:46am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by primitive machine » Aug 25 2015 5:53am

Thanks for fast replies, appreciated! Yes I do suspect that its not built for much higher speeds, but it really feels like the motor has more to give because of the fast drop om momentum just Before 25 km/h. In quite gradient/slope roads it take me nearly effortless up at 22 km/h. On a website (pedelecs if I remember correctly) I read that a norwegian guy had the same controller and he connected the "enactment" pins on the board to override the speed limiter. This did not work on my E-bike though.
In a few Days I will try to connect the White wire to my computer and test different software I found online. I will buy this Cable, figure 6, does anyone know if a flashbutton really is needed to send the new programming? Or couldnt I just have all wires in +5V, ground, and the two datas?
Attachments
6.jpg
6
6.jpg (49.58 KiB) Viewed 5662 times

jesusjesus   10 W

10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Jun 21 2014 2:42am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by jesusjesus » Aug 25 2015 2:51pm

no harm in trying, but this thing is still not a moped, ;-)

have you tested, the max speed of the motor when its not touching the ground?

User avatar
Racer_X   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 429
Joined: Oct 01 2009 5:48am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by Racer_X » Aug 25 2015 4:16pm

jesusjesus wrote:no harm in trying, but this thing is still not a moped, ;-)
have you tested, the max speed of the motor when its not touching the ground?
Primitive machine, I think Jesusjesus has a point here.
It would give you a good idea what the motor can do if you can test the no load speed with a 19 amp controller and 48v battery to see if it is even possible to reach over 30km/h with that motor. Some of the 250w geared motors available in the EU market are designed to not go over 25km/h and max 30 with a 48v battery. On the other hand i have also tested some 250w motors geared that went 40+ km/h with 19 amp controller and 48v battery. You never know until you try.

I have a test controller and 48v battery we can test your motor with.
We can even hook up one of biltemas bike computers to measure unloaded motor top speed.
http://www.biltema.se/sv/Fritid/Cykel/T ... 000031647/
I live in söder stockholm. if it not too far for you PM me. Jesusjesus you welcome to come by too.
And i should extend the invite to dogman if he can swing by from the US :D
Cannondale F8 MTB, 9c 9x7, Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with torque plates. 12s3p or 18s2p depending on mood.Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.
Backup bike Schwinn Heavy Duti Beach Cruiser, 9c 9x7 front Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with clamping dropouts, Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.

primitive machine   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 25 2015 12:46am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by primitive machine » Aug 26 2015 1:06am

JesusJesus: Yes, I rigged up the rear wheel and pedeled lightly by hands only to set the movementsensors magnets in motion. Result: When the display is set to 40 km/h the motor also helped the wheel it up to 40 km/h! With that cleared and the fact that I clerly feel the momentum/motorforce drop drastically after about 22-23 km/h (an electric motor should have the momentum/"force" more slowly dropping towards its maximum RPM) I suspect it has more to give / that the current is minimized by the controllers programming after 25 km/h.

If you check out my very advanced graph :D I made in paint this morning I hereby attach its easier to understand.

Racer_X: I live in Uppsala, not so far from Stockholm. I recently moved to a house outside the city and take my new E-bike to work and back every day ~25 km. Average speed 26 km/h. Quite a lot of hills and small sandroad in the forest. There I find the E-bike useful, but on flat ground in still air 25 km/h is embarrassing when the old seniors passes me (I am 35 years) if I dont push the pedals to higher speeds.

I like to build things myself and dont want to be dependend too much on other things or others (cars and queue, waiting for busses etc) so in the future I probably assemble an E-bike after my own wishes. But now I will concentatre in modding what I have already have by common means - so advice regarding programming the controller would be apprreciated, particular about the cableconnection (+5V, ground, 2 data Cables) so I dont harm the controller, or the computer!
Attachments
Diagram.jpg
Diagram.jpg (124.66 KiB) Viewed 2783 times

jesusjesus   10 W

10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Jun 21 2014 2:42am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by jesusjesus » Aug 26 2015 7:21am

Hejsan

Sorry cant help with that, and not many here has your setup i think (us centrist). And controllers are often extremely different, and today tech is moving fast.

Again you might be right.

But i still think, the problem could be that the controller is 13A peak, halt that nominal, at some point the power is just not enough. The controller is just not able to output any more juice, because it is not designed for it.
A motor might want to reach its max rpm, but cant, because current is too low.

As the other poster wrote, a 20a controller and 48v battery is probably what you need, generic controllers are dirt cheap on ebay, and since you are an engineer, that should be no problem ;-)
you are probably interested in keeping the setup nice and clean, so a bottle battery the ones that look like a drinking bottle maybe, with a 14.4v 10000 mah lipo inside/somewhere in series is an option. (some might say that's stupid YMMV)

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__ ... _Pack.html

that will give you 50v, then mix it with a 48v 18-20amp controller YOU select, and know what it can do and how to control it.

Or get a new 48v 10ah lithium with bms, then run it on an 36v controller, so you can use the build in battery as a range extender.

The sky is the limit.

no trolling, just freindly advice. :-)

Id love to go to stockholm, maybe i cant get you people to give us back Skaane, halland and bleking. hehe

macsolve   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 2
Joined: Aug 28 2015 3:13am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by macsolve » Aug 28 2015 3:21am

I have the same bike (it's a great bike) and can confirm that the motor power turns off abruptly at 25 km/h, and it definitely feels that it has more to give.

I'm also looking for ways to hack the motor to run up to 30 km/h and was happy to find this thread. I thought programming the motor firmware to believe that the wheel is smaller as described for some other 8FUN motor would be the way to go, but it doesn't sound that way. Changing the wheel size on the display definitely doesn't help, that only changes the speedometer reading (unless a restart is required after wheel size change?).

I don't even know where the controller is located - beneath the battery bay?

User avatar
Racer_X   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 429
Joined: Oct 01 2009 5:48am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by Racer_X » Aug 28 2015 6:15am

jesusjesus wrote:As the other poster wrote, a 20a controller and 48v battery is probably what you need, generic controllers are dirt cheap on ebay, and since you are an engineer, that should be no problem
All it takes is another controller and 12v more in series to your battery and you got a faster bike And Grandma (mormor) is not going to be able to pass you again! :twisted:

Cannondale F8 MTB, 9c 9x7, Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with torque plates. 12s3p or 18s2p depending on mood.Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.
Backup bike Schwinn Heavy Duti Beach Cruiser, 9c 9x7 front Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with clamping dropouts, Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.

primitive machine   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 25 2015 12:46am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by primitive machine » Sep 02 2015 1:08am

macsolve wrote:I have the same bike (it's a great bike) and can confirm that the motor power turns off abruptly at 25 km/h, and it definitely feels that it has more to give.

I'm also looking for ways to hack the motor to run up to 30 km/h and was happy to find this thread. I thought programming the motor firmware to believe that the wheel is smaller as described for some other 8FUN motor would be the way to go, but it doesn't sound that way. Changing the wheel size on the display definitely doesn't help, that only changes the speedometer reading (unless a restart is required after wheel size change?).

I don't even know where the controller is located - beneath the battery bay?

The controller is above the battery in the "tube". Just unscrew 12 + 2 screws and youre in. I took a multimeter and measured resistance to be surtain of the wires in the white programmingcablecable (5V+ and ground). Serial to USB adapter is now bought from "Kjell", will try the Lyen MK2 software when I have time.

macsolve   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 2
Joined: Aug 28 2015 3:13am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by macsolve » Sep 05 2015 5:25pm

primitive machine wrote: When I type the controllers password in (1919)
Please explain that about the controller's password, how is that entered?

User avatar
Allex   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3081
Joined: Dec 05 2011 8:46am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by Allex » Sep 10 2015 12:47pm

It could be as easy as a wire that you need to disconnect. Sometimes controller have full/half speed. You enable this by a jumper or two wires going outside the controller.
I am most certain that you can do about 39 km/h with the stock motor/controller if you manage to unlock it.
If you do you will gain more power and will have less distance with the stock battery. Let me know if you need to beef up(12/14Ah) it in the future.

d8veh   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5461
Joined: Dec 10 2010 10:45am
Location: Telford

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by d8veh » Sep 11 2015 5:40am

One guy solved his by shorting the "enactment" pads on the back of the pcb. You can see them in your 4th photo. Lishui use a lot of different methods of controlling the speed. Sometimes is fixed in the software with no option to override.

Does yours have a LCD? Sometimes there's a seting in there.

I see yours has the USB programming lead. The last guy that had one of those ttied everything without success. I guess that you need to reprogram the speed limit through that lead.

Moreorless   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Apr 08 2018 3:12pm

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by Moreorless » Apr 08 2018 3:19pm

Bumping old thread.. Any news on this one?

huckjam   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 17 2018 2:34am

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by huckjam » Aug 17 2018 2:38am

I am also bumping this thread, as I have the same bike as primitive machine. Did you manage to increase the top speed of your bike? :)

Entoklar   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 28 2018 1:59pm

Re: New MTB E-bike from Biltema tuning

Post by Entoklar » Aug 28 2018 2:17pm

Had to test this bike.

Oem bike runs to 30km/h with the wheel in the air. Pulls as others have described to about 23km/h and looses punch when ridden.

So what I did:
- turn on bike
- tap twice on power to enter menu
- set speed limit to 44km/h
- set voltage to 48V
- enter password 1919
- tap twice on power button to exit

Then:
1 remove the battery from the bike
2 unscrew 4 screws and open the battery
3 soldered the + wire off the printboard
4 soldered the - wire from a lipo 11,1V 2200mah battery to the + connection on the printboard
5 soldered the + wire from the 11,1V lipo to the red wire disconnected on 3
6 measured voltage before and after, 39V before, 50V after
7 Refit battery on bike and fasten the external battery using tape

So, after this mod the wheel spins at 38km/h in the air.

Ride impressions, seems the bike pulls with the same force as before up to 25km/h but now also keeps on pulling.

On a flat stretch I slowly turned the pedals in 1 gear and it reached about 36km/h. This test oem reaches around 23km/h

Cheers
Attachments
66711E91-6E76-4EFF-B259-D9F1F235F2C0.jpeg

Post Reply