Front Direct Drive Hub Motor Recommendations for 2WD build

shankster

100 mW
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
42
Location
New Zealand
Hi all,

I'm building a 2WD bike with a mid drive rear and direct drive front combo. Not interested in geared hub motor as I need reverse capability and regen breaking.
I'm looking for recommendations for a direct drive hub motor with these characteristics:

-48V
-500W approx.
-Disk brake compatible
-1oomm dropout
-weights less than 6kg
-direct purchase from manufacturer
- robust and proven and as much as possible water proof.
- Idealy (maybe I'm dreaming 32H spoke config.)

Is there a thread for trusted Chinese hub motor manufacturers?
Any leads greatly appreciated.
Mike
 
What you are looking for does not exist.

http://www.hallomotor.com/48v-350w-gearless-mini-hub-motor-for-electric-bike-brushless-hub-motor-for-front-wheel.html This is the only hub motor I know of that comes close, but it's rated for 350w. I couldn't tell you if you are buying direct from the manufacturer.

Robust and proven? Doubtful. Waterproof hub motor? Not likely.

Your only hope for a direct drive hub motor that weighs close to that much, assuming the hub motor that I linked to actually is what the page says it does (as I don't actually own this hub) is to vent and spray (VS) it. The VS approach allows air to pass through the hub and you end up with a radically better thermal pathway compared to a typical stock hub motor. In addition, VSing is what makes the motor water proof. https://youtu.be/gwlbAJLzI_w?t=1238 A portion of this video might help bring you up to speed on some of this topic of a waterproof hub. Some use http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001447PEK/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001447PEK&linkCode=as2&tag=xbnijgbr-20&linkId=EDQH7DCSSCTTHFYZ this or http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=insulating%20varnish&linkCode=ur2&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ainsulating%20varnish&tag=xbnijgbr-20&url=search-alias%3Daps&linkId=4VWZM2WWRUCEU4LA something like this. The boeshield spray approach needs reapplication once a year or so but my understanding is that the spray doesn't inhibit the thermal advantage as the varnish might.

Geared hub motors can be ran in reverse and use regenerative braking, contrary to popular opinion. All you need to do is lock the clutch.

I suggest using a steel fork and reinforcing the dropouts (torque arms) for use with this hub motor.
 
Thanks Bowlofsalad,

One has to start with the ideal first I guess.

Interested to learn more about
"Geared hub motors can be ran in reverse and use regenerative braking, contrary to popular opinion. All you need to do is lock the clutch."

Can you elaborate or is there a thread on how this can be done?
I can live without regen breaking but reverse is a must. I'm a paraplegic and cannot walk so turning the bike around is a tricky proposition.

Thanks for those links.
 
You don't need, or probably even want, the front motor to run in reverse when backing up, so a freewheeling in reverse geared hubbie may be a better and safer answer for the front.
 
John in CR said:
You don't need, or probably even want, the front motor to run in reverse when backing up, so a freewheeling in reverse geared hubbie may be a better and safer answer for the front.

Sorry John, but that makes no sense to me. Can you clarify?
I'm running a mid-drive which will not provide the reverse. I'm looking for a front hub motor to do the reversing.
 
I tried to buy from the source Yescoma through their ebay store Xeries.
And Yes they contacted me outside of ebay. I have all the emails from Yescoma
What a foul experience. Dozens of phone calls emails and faxes to Yescoma.
I waited a month for service that they promised. On the last day according to the ebay estimate that they would ship it. at 500 pm no shipping confirmation
Outraged I contacted Ebay at six oclock at night. I got an email from ebay that Xeries had shipped it at midnight.
Always go through a middle man ebay or a trusted vender .
I got rotten, Extremely stinky tires, Incomplete wheels bent rims one was in fair shape the other one looked like a returned item.
Typical quality fade from a Chinese vender
I bought sweepings from Xeries The Yescoma ebay store.
I am used to repairing rc motors both glow and electric.
I extensively repaired both of the motors I bought from Xeries.
Plug and play NO way!
Only buy from a trusted middle man like Thats Dax ,Sickbike Parts, or EMe3ev. I am missing some good venders.
You can not expect to receive a fair deal from any Chinese manufacture.
I should post the complete email correspondence from Yescoma.
They even fouled ebay by offering an alternate store that sells the same items that ebay sells.
The password to access this wonderful store EBAY 10.
 
On many bikes, you can turn the handlebars right round (180 deg), so normal geared hub-motor motor with a clutch will point backwards to give you reverse. Is that a possibility on your vehicle? I would have thought that a geared motor would be better for the low-speed torque that you need.
 
On a geared motor, if you can come up with a way to disable the clutch mechanism, then it's a direct drive motor with gears.

As for the weight, not a lot you can do about that, most dd motors are just going to be a bit heavier. So experimenting with a nice light geared motor might be a good plan if the weight is that important.

Buying direct, all I can say is go to alibaba and find one willing to ship in units of one. Most direct from factory sales will be larger buys, but some might have sell you one. Might also look at websites for golden motor or bafang.

Or just go to BMS battery, not direct buy but known to be cheap.

Hub motors will run when full of water. If you go with a DD hub, it need not be fully waterproof, even if you ford streams with the axle underwater. What you need is a drip loop, and a removable rubber plug on a hole in the hub cover. Then you have a pretty close to sealed motor, but you can pull that plug periodically and let excess water out by running it with the hole open to drive out steam. Big vent holes may not work for you, since they can let in rocks that size. Some of my off road motors just have tiny little holes to vent out steam when they run. This prevents the suction that draws water into motors down the wires when they are cooling off.

Not sure how a mid drive motor system will be affected by submergence, they often have the controller built in. If your axle is underwater, likely your mid drive will be too.
 
shankster said:
Interested to learn more about
"Geared hub motors can be ran in reverse and use regenerative braking, contrary to popular opinion. All you need to do is lock the clutch."

Can you elaborate or is there a thread on how this can be done?

Few have gone into much detail into doing this themselves. The only attempt that I can recall seeing with a degree of illustration was when someone coated their clutch with JBweld. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10458&hilit=45&start=45#p212576
This JB weld attempt eventually failed, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10458&hilit=45&start=45#p282632

So far as I know, all electric bicycle hub motor clutches are simply two rounded plates spinning across (or with) each other with a bit of grease (if you are lucky) in between them. The idea, at least in my opinion, is to weld the two rounded plates together where they meet. A potential technique for this is to remove the gears(and anything else you don't want to get hot, like bearings) from the clutch, degrease the clutch assembly, place the clutch assembly into an oven and heat it up well,(preheat reduces risks for warping), after the part was heated remove it from the oven and then TIG weld the joints. You probably wouldn't need to do a ton of welding, as in you don't need a ton of heat or penetration, and may not even need any filler. I'd toss the clutch back in the oven to cool, turning the oven off after the clutch was placed back in. You could probably skip the pre/post heating thing if the clutch was thick enough and you weren't too worried about it warping (especially if you have spares for trial and error).

http://imgur.com/a/s8SWu These pictures are of the clutch assembly from one of the Q100h geared hub motors I have and should illustrate some of what I mentioned. The Q100h is probably a good candidate for your criteria, it weighs 2.2kg, but this modification is pretty intense and there is still more you'd need to do. The motor would need to be ran with oil inside of it as well. The oil would act as a thermal transfer fluid, getting the heat from the inside of the motor to the shell much more effectively. You could probably run a Q100h at around 500w continuously with around 30-40ml of oil without much need for worry, though some folks run this motor stock at higher power levels, I am sure the oil will lengthen the life and improve reliability, especially protecting the hub from corrosion.

I didn't mention this, but a vented and sprayed direct drive hub motor which was once rated for 350w would now likely be rated for around 1050w, certainly far more than 500w. Personally, if I was going to recommend one or the other to you, I'd suggest venting and spraying (VS) a direct drive hub motor. VS will likely be a substantially easier modification and it seems unlikely that zero oil will leak from an oil cooled geared hub motor.
 
d8veh said:
On many bikes, you can turn the handlebars right round (180 deg), so normal geared hub-motor motor with a clutch will point backwards to give you reverse. Is that a possibility on your vehicle? I would have thought that a geared motor would be better for the low-speed torque that you need.

That's a really interesting idea! thanks. Feel kinda stupid for overlooking this. :)
 
spinningmagnets said:


Thanks Spinning Magnets. I had enquired about the G series direct with Crystalyte and they only supply this to their EU distributor. This makes it cost prohibitive, paying twice for shipping plus retail margin.

Good to know about those other sites. Cheers.
 
Thanks Bowl of Salad,

Good reading. Modifying a geared hub looks like a pain in the neck.
A direct drive VS or a geared hub (and turning the handle bars around for reverse) looks to the best way to go at this point.
Thanks again for your thoughts.

Are the MAC geared hubs the go to geared hub right now?
What others would you consider?
 
shankster said:
Thanks Bowl of Salad,

Good reading. Modifying a geared hub looks like a pain in the neck.
A direct drive VS or a geared hub (and turning the handle bars around for reverse) looks to the best way to go at this point.
Thanks again for your thoughts.

Are the MAC geared hubs the go to geared hub right now?
What others would you consider?
unless you're planning some sort of insane operation (like many members of this forum lol) a small geared hub motor on the front wheel is the best, or easiest to apply and the two motors will provide all the power you need for operation at 32kph more or less.
I have both DD and geared-hub motors on the front wheels of my trikes.
I do prefer the (heavy) dd motors with regen and reverse but... and this is a big but... I built or modified my forks to accommodate the extreme forces regen asserts.
 
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