What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
cwah   10 GW

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What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 16 2015 5:06am

Hello,

I'm wondering what would be the best setup to escape cars on starting point on dangerous city?

My current setup is leafmotor 54v (14s) 35A on 20" wheel. Max speed around 33mph.

I think top speed around 40-45mph would be good.

But trust is far from enough. Bus start faster than me!
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by sonnetg » Nov 16 2015 10:39am

An Electric motorbike seems to be made just for that! [or a modified hybrid MC frame like Raptor/Flux/Vector]

If you want to convert a bicycle to electric, you wont be able to achieve this kind of speed on any hills. The frame just isn't built for that purpose.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 16 2015 11:09am

sonnetg wrote: If you want to convert a bicycle to electric, you wont be able to achieve this kind of speed on any hills. The frame just isn't built for that purpose.
Many DH racing frames are riding just as good and stiff as an MX motorcycle frame that is 3 times the weight, and 45 Mph is not fast by today's performance ebike builders.


cwah wrote: My current setup is leafmotor 54v (14s) 35A on 20" wheel. Max speed around 33mph.

I think top speed around 40-45mph would be good.

But trust is far from enough. Bus start faster than me!
Build with a bigger motor, on a good old DH racing frame.

Cromotor in a 24'' wheel, 20s RC lipo,18 fet 4110 controller upgraded to 150A... You will be able to accelerate almost any vehicle on a start, with a top speed to keep ahead in city commuting. Build it with high end brakes and 3'' tires, and you will be able to outstop anyone around you on the streets. Up to 24s, and you have a true street racing machine.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by wesnewell » Nov 16 2015 12:12pm

Just one way.
MXUS 4503 in 24-26" wheel.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/1 ... 00320.html
Have LVC set to 82-84V. 60A is plenty. That's 6kw peak at 100V.
24s rc lipo
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by sonnetg » Nov 16 2015 1:05pm

MadRhino wrote: Many DH racing frames are riding just as good and stiff as an MX motorcycle frame that is 3 times the weight, and 45 Mph is not fast by today's performance ebike builders.
That's most likely on flats. If you climb a 15-20 degree incline, the speed will probably drop to half of that. I dont think there is any ebike motor out there that can maintain the same speed as it does in flat roads..at least as of now.

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by wesnewell » Nov 16 2015 1:16pm

Sure there are, or very close to it. Slow wind motors reach top speed on less amps. Increasing amps up hills will allow a motor more power to maintain speed.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 16 2015 2:06pm

sonnetg wrote:
MadRhino wrote: Many DH racing frames are riding just as good and stiff as an MX motorcycle frame that is 3 times the weight, and 45 Mph is not fast by today's performance ebike builders.
That's most likely on flats. If you climb a 15-20 degree incline, ...
I build for 60+ on the flat, then I can sustain 45 climbing. :wink:
This is off road and I rely on lots of power, on the street one could build with a smaller wheel and have less speed loss up a hill.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

cwah   10 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 16 2015 7:13pm

any way to do it on a cargo bike? i'd like to get something like this:

Image

then put a qshin 205 motor, 10kw with adaptto and 100v?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 16 2015 7:16pm

would this one work if I change to a suspension fork?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cargo-bike-/131632482967?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by sonnetg » Nov 16 2015 7:23pm

MadRhino wrote: I build for 60+ on the flat, then I can sustain 45 climbing. :wink:
This is off road and I rely on lots of power, on the street one could build with a smaller wheel and have less speed loss up a hill.
What is the range of your ebike? I woun't recommend anyone using RC lipos. Too dangerous and too much hassle. Seems you are using a 20S lipo setup.

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by John in CR » Nov 16 2015 11:31pm

sonnetg wrote:An Electric motorbike seems to be made just for that! [or a modified hybrid MC frame like Raptor/Flux/Vector]

If you want to convert a bicycle to electric, you wont be able to achieve this kind of speed on any hills. The frame just isn't built for that purpose.
My converted Cannondale SuperV will hit 80mph up a 5-7% grade on the highway, and I've hit over 50mph up an extremely curvy solid 20% grade. I carry just over 2kwh of battery and more in a backpack when extra long range is needed, but of course range varies greatly depending how I ride.


Cwah,
I'm sorry to hear about your performance woes, because getting shut down by a bus is just embarrassing. My bike has only been beaten once, and that was a small guy on a Ducati who knew how to ride and was prepared for what he was up against at the red light. On my rear facing cam videos cars and buses are left behind as if they're standing still and that's not even riding hard. I love the safety that space gives me, and it's fun too. PM me when you're ready to stop playing around with the kiddie hubbies, and don't listen to Wesnewell, because no hubbie for the street belongs in a 24-26" wheel if you're after performance. You don't want bicycle tires anyway.

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Jonathan in Hiram   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by Jonathan in Hiram » Nov 17 2015 12:22am

Your bike should be quicker than a bus up to 20 mph or so anyway unless you are dragging a lot of weight along, are you sure your battery is not sagging and has enough current capability to fully feed your controller all the amps it will take?
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cwah   10 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 17 2015 12:38am

John in CR wrote:PM me when you're ready to stop playing around with the kiddie hubbies, and don't listen to Wesnewell, because no hubbie for the street belongs in a 24-26" wheel if you're after performance. You don't want bicycle tires anyway.
I was thinking at some stage to update to:
- 80V battery
- qs 205 motor
- sabvoton 80V 150A controller (adaptto are nice but expensive, less reliable and need to have screen)
- 20" bike wheel

But would need to find relevant cargo bike frame such as the one above. Is it not enough? Pm'ed you
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 17 2015 12:42am

Jonathan in Hiram wrote:Your bike should be quicker than a bus up to 20 mph or so anyway unless you are dragging a lot of weight along, are you sure your battery is not sagging and has enough current capability to fully feed your controller all the amps it will take?
If driver go slow from red light I go slightly faster. But on the bus lane when bus go full acceleration bus goes faster.

Minibus are always faster.

Some lycra start faster too.


Maybe 2kw on leafmotor isn't good enough? It's only 30mm stator width
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Jonathan in Hiram   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by Jonathan in Hiram » Nov 17 2015 1:19am

What is your battery configuration? What sort of cells? BMS?
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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 17 2015 1:38am

My battery is 14s40AH ncr18650pf cells (196 cells). Not much sag as the pack is like 2kwh.

No bms i use speedict lite to track cells life
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 17 2015 10:10am

If the goal is to beat a bus, you should be able to do it with controller mod, maybe some wiring and connectors too.

Yet, 'to escape car danger', means to me building serious acceleration and braking performance. That is a whole new rig. There are many ways to do it, but you need to do it good so it is safe to handle it.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by sonnetg » Nov 17 2015 10:58am

John in CR wrote:
sonnetg wrote:An Electric motorbike seems to be made just for that! [or a modified hybrid MC frame like Raptor/Flux/Vector]

If you want to convert a bicycle to electric, you wont be able to achieve this kind of speed on any hills. The frame just isn't built for that purpose.
My converted Cannondale SuperV will hit 80mph up a 5-7% grade on the highway, and I've hit over 50mph up an extremely curvy solid 20% grade. I carry just over 2kwh of battery and more in a backpack when extra long range is needed, but of course range varies greatly depending how I ride.
That's good to know, but at the price of a DH frame, i think it would be better to simply invest in an ebike frame specifically built for performance and abuse. These bike frames have enclosed battery compartments and no need to strap batteries or backpacks.

Going fast is one thing, but the faster you go, the shorter range becomes. It's a catch 22. To go 45 mph in all terrains, you will probably have to shoot for 60 mph on flats.

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by danielrlee » Nov 17 2015 11:22am

Cwah, are you using a 12-fet IRFB4110 infineon? If so, you'd probably be happy with just modding it to 60A. I recently did so running a Crystalyte H3540 on 50v in a 26" wheel and can keep up with all the traffic in town and most definitely outperform busses. To be honest, I'm surprised you can't already with your current setup. How much do you weigh? Also, as stated by others, are you sure your battery is performing as it should?
https://TorqueTech.co.uk : Electric bike spares, parts & accessories : 10% discount code ’ENDLESS10

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by fredfire » Nov 17 2015 11:27am

I have an idea, why don't you add a second motor, like the bbs02.

Combined with the hubmotor, it will start very fast and the hub will continue with high speed.

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 17 2015 12:20pm

John, I had looked at used Cannondale Super V's but did not find any in my area with disc brakes, or even the tabs on the fork and swingarm for disc brakes.
What Super V / year do you have ?
What rear swing arm on your's ?, they used at least 3 different swing arms on the Super V production line , over the years.

Where did you put so much battery ?

I would love to see pictures, as the Super V frame is one I had considered for a while.



My converted Cannondale SuperV will hit 80mph up a 5-7% grade on the highway, and I've hit over 50mph up an extremely curvy solid 20% grade. I carry just over 2kwh of battery and more in a backpack when extra long range is needed, but of course range varies greatly depending how I ride.


Cwah,
I'm sorry to hear about your performance woes, because getting shut down by a bus is just embarrassing. My bike has only been beaten once, and that was a small guy on a Ducati who knew how to ride and was prepared for what he was up against at the red light. On my rear facing cam videos cars and buses are left behind as if they're standing still and that's not even riding hard. I love the safety that space gives me, and it's fun too. PM me when you're ready to stop playing around with the kiddie hubbies, and don't listen to Wesnewell, because no hubbie for the street belongs in a 24-26" wheel if you're after performance. You don't want bicycle tires anyway.[/quote]
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 17 2015 1:54pm

sonnetg wrote:...but at the price of a DH frame, i think it would be better to simply invest in an ebike frame specifically built for performance and abuse. These bike frames have enclosed battery compartments and no need to strap batteries or backpacks.
No ebike specific frame does ride as stiff and good as DH racing frame, and very few can take as much abuse.
Most of all, they weight significantly more abnd their suspension design is often inefficient.

But yes, it is more expansive and more trouble to build on a DH frame, and you need to dig to find a neat finish after fitting the batteries and other mods. For those who are riding very fast, or very hard, it is well worth it.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 17 2015 9:36pm

my bike is barely accelerating stronger than bus which makes escape difficult. escaping black cab or minibus is impossible.

I was considering dh bike, but in this case i'd maybe rather buy an ebike frame.. otherwise a small cargo bike would be my preference.

controller is bmsbattery sine wave one and i don't want something that blow on long slope. battery is perfectly fine
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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sonnetg   1 kW

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by sonnetg » Nov 17 2015 9:59pm

You can probably add a 2nd motor on the front to give you the boost (probably a lightweight 6T MAC motor?). If that doesn't work out, you will probably have to plan on building a new bike.

DH frames are nice, but it would be better if the frame space was available for the huge battery.

You cold also look into CrMo Dirt Jump bikes. The frame should be able to take such abuse.

I am on a similar boat as you...but I need torque to get me up hills without slowing me down. I am contemplating on adding a secondary motor, but not sure how feasible that would be. Will have to do some research..

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Re: What motor and controller to escape cars danger?

Post by cwah » Nov 18 2015 8:03am

sonnetg wrote:You can probably add a 2nd motor on the front to give you the boost (probably a lightweight 6T MAC motor?). If that doesn't work out, you will probably have to plan on building a new bike.

DH frames are nice, but it would be better if the frame space was available for the huge battery.

You cold also look into CrMo Dirt Jump bikes. The frame should be able to take such abuse.

I am on a similar boat as you...but I need torque to get me up hills without slowing me down. I am contemplating on adding a secondary motor, but not sure how feasible that would be. Will have to do some research..
Yeah that's also possible to buy jump bike... but in that case wouldn't that be simpler to buy an ebike frame?

I haven't bought ebike frames yet because I'd like to have a bike where I can carry a passenger, that's why I'm looking toward cargo bikes.
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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