is this good news? (Graphene battery)

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Joppo   100 W

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is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Joppo » Feb 03 2016 7:54am

turnigy is annoucing a new battery with Graphene. anyone field tested it yet?
TURNIGY, the name synonymous with performance, reliability and innovation is excited to release a powerful new battery chemistry in the Turnigy Graphene!
What does this really mean for you? Well not only do Graphene batteries go harder for longer but they're unlike anything you have seen or used before.
Turnigy Graphene packs utilize carbon in the battery structure to form a single layer of graphene just 0.335nm thick, making that type of battery substrate the thinnest known to mankind. The graphene particles form a highly dense compound allowing electrons to flow with less resistance compared to traditional Lipoly battery technologies.
The result is a battery capable of maintaining greater power output whilst remaining much cooler under load. Since heat and resistance are the natural enemy of batteries Graphene chemistry has significantly reduced these problems and the result is an incredible boost in cycle life.
Turnigy Graphene batteries are the new standard for serious hobbyists who require POWER ON DEMAND.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... source=EDM
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Melbourne » Feb 03 2016 8:50am

Testing by RC group...I dont understands it...lol


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592234

It looks like the next generation of Lipo’s will be arriving soon. {thumbs up}

(based on my tests)
Are you ready for the possibility of:
>900 flights?
<20% loss of capacity at 900 cycles?
Basically no loss in IR rating after 900 cycles?
Perhaps no more puffed packs?

Back in early December 2015, I was asked by Hobby King to do another round of testing on a battery line, this time on a new lipo line that they were considering releasing in February or March 2016. My contact was adamant about me not being a shill (I was thinking… I WOULD NEVER). Instead, he insisted that I call it as it is (always do). If they are a flop be honest and say it (I will).

His next email had a picture of the packs and I immediately got excited. Why? They had the word Graphene on the label. He did not mention that yet.
I don’t know how much you know about graphene but this is (may) be the next BIG thing the semiconductor industry (and many others) is waiting on (the semiconductor industry is my 9-5 job).
Graphene has also been known in all industries as being almost impossible to use. Well, up to a few years ago anyhow. Engineers have since figured out how to apply it to many applications but can it be done cost efficiently?

A few weeks later I received some 4S 1300 packs. I frowned some when I looked closely at the shrink wrap around the cells. It was not the typical PVC that I am used to and I resist change. Instead, it resembled the smaller black shrink we use around our wiring. Measurements showed it to be 13 thousandths of an inch thick (.013) and a dull, sorta satin, black. Just like our tube heat shrink. (.010 on my 3/16” heat shrink) Over a month later I can honestly say that I LOVE THIS SHRINK. It is more resistant to hanger rash too.

I also noticed these carried more weight and were slightly larger than my other 4S 1300 packs. My scale showed these to be .3750 pound / 6oz / 170 grams.
L = 2.93” / 74.4 mm
W = 1.35” / 34.2mm
H = 1.43” / 36.3mm

I have the Wayne Giles IR tool so I tested IR and V of every pack. All came in at 31C to 33C but I have to admit the temps were not verified. True IR testing must be in a lab type environment at 72F for 2-3 hours for the most accurate readings. WOW, that is some low IR.

I charged pack #1 up on my PL8 at 5 amps and all cells sat at 4.20. OK, no biggie, seen that before.
I then set my PL8 to discharge at 30 amps (23C; the most my PL8 would discharge into my lipo source) down to 3.6 volts so it will cut off when the first cell touches 3.6 volts. I began the regenerative discharge into my 7S5P and she held 30 amps all the way down. That is a 2:10 discharge cycle. I also noticed all cells were within .01 of each other during this discharge. OK, did not expect that one.
Pack temp was 107 but I do not recall ambient though it was around 75F for a high that day. I was expecting more heat.

Next up was another charge and a slow discharge down to 3.0 volts at 1 amp. All packs delivered 1280 to 1290mah; that’s a 1300mah pack in my books.

I now have (are you ready for this) more than 897 cycles on this pack; I call it pack #1. You know the saying “If it’s too good to be true…” This is the real deal guys and gals.

Anyone that knows Lipo’s will ask how the capacity is now after >900 cycles (20 more cycles are running as I type this). Well, a few nights ago I let the pack soak in my 72F house and the IR was 29. That’s right, basically NO LOSS of C rating at cycle 729. Really? Yulp, and the IR has been holding around there the whole time. The worse I had tested at 27C but the pack was at 68F based in my IR thermometer. Too low, I know, but I wanted to fill in my spreadsheet. Remember, IR is directly affected by temperature and it isn’t linear in temperature or between packs.

Next up you should be asking about the true capacity now. Well, are you sitting down yet? At cycle 894, again at a 1 amp draw down to 3.0 volts, I got 1109 out. That is still 85% capacity. Really? We always say a lipo is pretty much gone when we lose 20% capacity. Usually with this loss we have a loss in IR but I have not seen this…yet.

OK… so I abused this pack on one flight in my stock EDF Meteor. Amps stated at 52 and ended up at 47 as the cells neared 3.4. Oh, that was on cycle 504. Really? Pack temp was only a bit higher than my 30 amp discharges and I recorded 127F one minute after my 60 second flight.

I am continuing to run 23C cycle life tests in the coming weeks. If the true capacity drops below 80% but it still dishes out the amps, I will keep going. I will retire this pack when the IR goes up to a point where the amp delivery is worthless. Hopefully I will not be Rip Van Winkle’s age when that happens.

More information on the amazing single layer of atoms we call Graphene: http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-10-...bout-graphene/

Thanks to Race Miata for the energy density numbers in post #17.

"Graphene 4S 65C 1300 = 175g. Energy density = 4 x 1.3 x 3.7 / 175 = 110Whr/kg"
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Punx0r » Feb 03 2016 11:08am

Hmm. What are the odds Turnigy, of all companies, would be the first to bring a graphene-based product to market? I don't doubt it may be a better battery than their previous model, but electrodes made entirely (or mostly) of graphene? That's a lot of big pieces. Graphene powder sprinkled in, with questionable benefit? That I could believe.

The review above is a bit lacking in technical details. Is it sensible to consider that IR can reduce despite a loss in cell capacity after cycling? My understanding was that loss of capacity is due to a loss of active material in the cell, which equates to have a smaller cell, which necessarily means an increase in IR and a reduction in C-rate.

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The next evolution in battery technology Graphene

Post by deano » Feb 03 2016 11:41am

Been waiting two years for these Batteries http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... phene.html

"TURNIGY, the name synonymous with performance, reliability and innovation is excited to release a powerful new battery chemistry in the Turnigy Graphene!

Since heat and resistance are the natural enemy of batteries, Graphene chemistry has significantly reduced these problems and the result is an incredible boost in cycle life.

Turnigy Graphene batteries are the new standard for serious hobbyists who require POWER ON DEMAND."

"... Graphene!
What does this really mean for you? Well not only do Graphene batteries go harder for longer but they're unlike anything you have seen or used before.
Turnigy Graphene packs utilize carbon in the battery structure to form a single layer of graphene just 0.335nm thick, making that type of battery substrate the thinnest known to mankind. The graphene particles form a highly dense compound allowing electrons to flow with less resistance compared to traditional Lipoly battery technologies.
The result is a battery capable of maintaining greater power output whilst remaining much cooler under load. Since heat and resistance are the natural enemy of batteries Graphene chemistry has significantly reduced these problems and the result is an incredible boost in cycle life."

The answer to all the battery problems I have been having.

I have at the moment in my battery case, four of these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... phene.html and two of these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ouse_.html

I now have to measure total space in battery case and make a decision which graphene batterys to replace my originals, because there is no like for like for my four 6 cell batterys. What would i lose droping down to having 4 of the 6 cell 4000 http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _XT90.html and two of the 3 cell http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _XT90.html ? or do I wait till a 6C 5000mAh becomes available?

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Graphene batteries are here!

Post by createthis » Feb 03 2016 1:38pm


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Re: Graphene batteries are here!

Post by nutnspecial » Feb 03 2016 1:51pm

Thanks for the vid, and nice utube channel!

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Re: Graphene batteries are here!

Post by Punx0r » Feb 03 2016 2:15pm

Third thread on this in about as many hours...

Edit: Just seen a fourth. I take it no one searches before posting threads nowadays ;)

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by www.recumbents.com » Feb 03 2016 2:36pm

Turnigy Graphene 6000mAh 4S 65C Lipo Pack w/XT90
9067000155-0Weight : 1349g | IN STOCK We ship this world-wide $84.46

Need 6 for a 12S, 12Ah pack = $510

If these are not explody then this will be perfect for ebikes, except for the weight. 1394 grams x 6 = 8094 grams = 17.8 lbs????

I think 99% of the lipo battery exothermic events are due to battery abuse. Overdischarge, overcharge, too long on the charger.
So who is our resident battery killer to test what happens after these have gone through some severe Overdischarge, overcharge cycles?

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Hillhater » Feb 03 2016 4:39pm

Why do you need a 65C pack for an Ebike ?
I thought most agreed the better energy density of the 10C Multistar packs was the optimum solution for Ebikes ?
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by MadRhino » Feb 04 2016 8:35am

Hillhater wrote:Why do you need a 65C pack for an Ebike ?
I thought most agreed the better energy density of the 10C Multistar packs was the optimum solution for Ebikes ?
10C is very short for me, 20C is enough when carrying 1 Kwh but they get hot. I find 30 or 40 C is cool and reliable, yet higher C rate means lower resistance and that is a major factor of sustained performance under extreme conditions.

Any improvement in battery technology is good news, but for us performance ebikers the interesting improvement has to be in power density. No one will convince me to add weight to my bikes if it doesn't mean better power to weight ratio at the end.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by dequinox » Feb 04 2016 9:33am

Looks like they have a 12 ah 6s now. On back order of course...

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Drunkskunk » Feb 04 2016 11:43am

Hillhater wrote:Why do you need a 65C pack for an Ebike ?
I thought most agreed the better energy density of the 10C Multistar packs was the optimum solution for Ebikes ?
If you only need 10C, you probably shouldn't use Lipo. There are better, less risky choices for >10C.
Samsung 25R 18650 cells, for example. I think LG has a good 10C 18650 cell as well as of a few months ago.

For those who do pull 65C, this could be great.
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by wesnewell » Feb 04 2016 11:57am

Samsung 25R cells are only rated for 8C (20A).
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by ScooterMan101 » Feb 04 2016 12:47pm

Those 12 amp , packs are advertised at 1610 grams per pack, so 2 packs for a 36 volt ( really between 36 and 48 volt e-bike )
would be 7.09 pounds , right in line with the typical 18650 pack in weight.

It will be good news, when Turnigy makes the same 12 amp pack at 7 s, and 8 s , not just up to 6 s .


We want more 7s , and , 8 s packs for our e-bikes !

Then we can have good power ( high amp draw, slightly higher volts ) at the same weight as the current 56 and more 18650 cell packs !!

Great News.

>

dequinox wrote:Looks like they have a 12 ah 6s now. On back order of course...

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ector.html
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Hillhater » Feb 05 2016 1:24am

Drunkskunk wrote:
Hillhater wrote:Why do you need a 65C pack for an Ebike ?
I thought most agreed the better energy density of the 10C Multistar packs was the optimum solution for Ebikes ?
If you only need 10C, you probably shouldn't use Lipo. There are better, less risky choices for >10C.
Samsung 25R 18650 cells, for example. I think LG has a good 10C 18650 cell as well as of a few months ago.

For those who do pull 65C, this could be great.
You are completely ignoring any cost, ease of assembly, or availability, implications when suggesting 18650's.
..let alone the performance limitations of a 18650 pack.
I'm happy for you to use 65C packs,...but I'm pretty sure you don't "need" them .....unless you are racing !
It's hard to go beyond the standard 20-30C Lipo packs.
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by www.recumbents.com » Feb 05 2016 10:54am

My experience so far comparing a 10Ah 18650 pack (4P - 25R) to a 10Ah Lipo pack (Turnigy 30C), is that the 18650 pack sags under high current. This means that it feels slower and does not deliver as high a top speed. It sounds like these packs may not sag at all. If so, that sounds really good to me.

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by ecycler » Feb 05 2016 11:23am

www.recumbents.com wrote:My experience so far comparing a 10Ah 18650 pack (4P - 25R) to a 10Ah Lipo pack (Turnigy 30C), is that the 18650 pack sags under high current. This means that it feels slower and does not deliver as high a top speed. It sounds like these packs may not sag at all. If so, that sounds really good to me.
It totally depends on the 18650's, LiPo, LifePo4 batteries you are using. I bought $500 worth of the latest and greatest from Hobbyking years ago to make a pack. The cells were rated at 30c... in my earlier days I believed the specs and quickly learned it was rubbish. They were only good for 3c max.

I have several Konion V, and VTC4 (these are 18650) packs that put out some serious power without breaking a sweat. They perform remarkably in cold weather as well. Remember that a lot of the C ratings on the cheaper LiPo batteries are inflated and high quality Sony cells are not. I would trust my VTC4 pack all day long at 30c over a 30c rated LiPo battery. It is a bit like RMS ratings on amplifiers...

If I wasn't swimming in batteries right now I would guinea pig these.
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by ddk » Feb 05 2016 4:34pm

Hillhater wrote:
Drunkskunk wrote:
Hillhater wrote:Why do you need a 65C pack for an Ebike ?
I thought most agreed the better energy density of the 10C Multistar packs was the optimum solution for Ebikes ?
If you only need 10C, you probably shouldn't use Lipo. There are better, less risky choices for >10C.
Samsung 25R 18650 cells, for example. I think LG has a good 10C 18650 cell as well as of a few months ago.

For those who do pull 65C, this could be great.
You are completely ignoring any cost, ease of assembly, or availability, implications when suggesting 18650's.
..let alone the performance limitations of a 18650 pack.
I'm happy for you to use 65C packs,...but I'm pretty sure you don't "need" them
.....unless you are racing !
It's hard to go beyond the standard 20-30C Lipo packs.
Hillhater wrote:Why do you need a 65C pack for an Ebike ?
I thought most agreed the better energy density of the 10C Multistar packs was the optimum solution for Ebikes ?
from a guy the complete opposite of MadRhino- 20C cells accelerate my rigs significantly stronger than the Multistar 10C packs
i.e 3(+)P 5000ma cells (15(+)Ah) provides much stronger acceleration than 2P 16000ma 10C cells (32Ah) real world performance. Range is undeniably different (Yay Multistar) but the Multistars do "slog" upon acceleration over their whole discharge cycle.
The announced price of the 6s 16Ah graphene is double that of Multistar 6s 16Ah yet I'm still tempted to try them...
...but I'll wait (as usual) for those who like to cut themselves on the edges to report in.

I agree that building an 18650 pack is not something I would or should attempt, lacking tooling and patience and dexterity to do so.
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Turnigy sells "Graphene" LiPo Packs now. But are they real?

Post by dtx1 » Feb 05 2016 5:31pm

So Turnigy, the company most people here know for their cheap LiPo Packs from Hobbyking sells Graphene based LiPos now.

Example http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _XT60.html

In their Forums, people are discussing it heavily

Link http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592234

So what do you guys think? Great Application for E-Bikes?

Personally I hope these have an insane cycle life on Ebikes. If they do 900 Cycles in an RC Vehicle, they will propably last much longer at our discharge rates. It also says you can Charge them at insane C Levels so quickcharging your electric bike would be possible. Full Capacity in half an hour? Possible!


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Re: Turnigy sells "Graphene" LiPo Packs now. But are they re

Post by dtx1 » Feb 05 2016 6:24pm

Thank you. Should have used the search

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by Occam's Laser » Feb 05 2016 11:27pm

Gravimetric energy density almost identical to a123 26650s, price higher in quantity, less safe...

But that cycle life and fast charge capability sure look interesting, and perhaps these cells are not less safe, one can hope...

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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by ecycler » Feb 06 2016 2:19am

I trust neither Turnigy nor Hobbyking, so I will believe the posted stats when I see a respected member post their test results and the accumulated data over the next few years from crowd experience and research here. I truly hope they are as good (and especially as safe) as they say they are, though!
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Re: Graphene batteries are here!

Post by Joppo » Feb 06 2016 3:15am

Punx0r wrote:Third thread on this in about as many hours...

Edit: Just seen a fourth. I take it no one searches before posting threads nowadays ;)
i just asked if anyone had field tested it yet..
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Re: is this good news? (Graphene battery)

Post by cwah » Feb 06 2016 7:24am

Looks good on paper but probably overinflated specs as for all HK lipo.

Need proper test!
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