Mini velo

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Mathurin
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Mini velo

Post by Mathurin » Dec 02, 2008 7:35 pm

Seems they're becoming popular in Japan and certain Asian countries, apparently mostly popular cause they take less space. 20" wheeled bikes that don't fold, seems they generally don't suffer the squrillyness typical of folders also. Anyways, looks like a good way to have a bike with hubmotor in 20" wheel without looking mentally handicapped.

http://www.cycleurope.co.jp/2008/bianchi2008.htm
http://www.job-web.co.jp/job/gios/giosl ... ivelo.html
http://www.raleigh.jp/catlog08/RSP/top.htm#
http://www.cs-hirose.com/
http://sillgey.com/
b050.jpg
sw_04.jpg
topic_20081113001.jpg
3006845467_7715146eb1.jpg
ocmt3_model.jpg

These two are folders, qr on shock. They look fairly good if nothing else.
http://www.rad-innovations.com/Reach/200653145354.jpg
http://www.cycleurope.co.jp/2007/bfenf.htm
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Doctorbass » Dec 02, 2008 10:27 pm

I would be curious to see a race with man using normal 700c wheel and these new smaller wheel..

I'm almost curious about the efficiency !

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Re: Mini velo

Post by ekline309 » Dec 03, 2008 2:49 am

Without looking mentally handicapped??? I don't know about y'all, but I wouldn't be caught dead riding one of those things.

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Re: Mini velo

Post by dogman dan » Dec 03, 2008 7:56 am

Some of those bianchis looked ok to me, if you need that kind of torque to get up a big hill. The big frame ones looked like they had room for a battery pack in the triangle. I wouldn't want a folder myself, unless I had to for the train, or the elevator. I have a big hill, so I have been hunting a 24" bike to put the swing arm on my 26" bike, and then run a 24" wheel in back, and a 26" in front, with a rear motor.

Bet its harder to bend them rims too. Looks like they run a big front chainring, something a lot of us want for our 26" bikes that go 30 mph.

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Re: Mini velo

Post by docnjoj » Dec 03, 2008 8:17 am

I think if Alex Moulton were dead, he would be turning over in his grave. Whats the point if they dont fold? (Sorry Miles!)
I've ridden a Birdy, and the suspension was quite good. But us big guys need big bikes with lots of spokes in the wheels!
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Miles
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 03, 2008 9:57 am

docnjoj wrote:Whats the point if they dont fold? (Sorry Miles!)
:shock:

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Miles
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 03, 2008 9:58 am

Mathurin wrote:Anyways, looks like a good way to have a bike with hubmotor in 20" wheel without looking mentally handicapped.
Why would you want to put a hub motor in them....? They're crying out for a non-hub motor system :)

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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 03, 2008 10:11 am

Doctorbass wrote:I would be curious to see a race with man using normal 700c wheel and these new smaller wheel..

I'm almost curious about the efficiency !

Doc
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On flattish surfaces, the wheel size doesn't make that much difference to rolling resistance, other things being equal.

Certainly, the mini-velos would be much more efficient on the road than a mountain bike with full suspension :mrgreen:

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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 03, 2008 10:17 am

ekline309 wrote:Without looking mentally handicapped??? I don't know about y'all, but I wouldn't be caught dead riding one of those things.
Question of taste, I guess. I wouldn't be seen dead on a cruiser or a chopper.......

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Re: Mini velo

Post by docnjoj » Dec 03, 2008 2:41 pm

Ya know, these little teeny bikes do cry out for those geared systems and model airplane motors, for real. That would be a big help to travelers who like to pack em into suitcases! This sounds like a money maker, since not all bike tourers are poor!
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Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 03, 2008 4:43 pm

These are nice: http://tyrellbike.com/

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Re: Mini velo

Post by Mathurin » Dec 03, 2008 5:53 pm

Ah, well compare to riding a child's bike, bmx or something made for 26" with one or two 20" wheels, these look a lot better, at a glance they look like folders. But also they're actually made to be ridden around, so they're not handicapped by terrible fit or much too low BB.

Given hubmotors seem to work great in 20" wheels, seems a step back to go for exposed mechanisms instead...


Anyways 2nd try at pictures.

Real classy
b050.jpg
b050.jpg (60.67 KiB) Viewed 2117 times
Simply badass
3006845467_7715146eb1.jpg
3006845467_7715146eb1.jpg (76.77 KiB) Viewed 2120 times
Panasonic Ti
ocmt3_model.jpg
ocmt3_model.jpg (29.1 KiB) Viewed 2115 times
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 03, 2008 6:13 pm

Mathurin wrote: Given hubmotors seem to work great in 20" wheels, seems a step back to go for exposed mechanisms instead...
You calling my bike a step backwards, mate... :twisted: :)

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Re: Mini velo

Post by docnjoj » Dec 03, 2008 6:26 pm

Miles wrote:These are nice: http://tyrellbike.com/
They are pretty, but I think my butt on one of those seats would be akin to waterboarding! Also thosw wheels look real shakey and weak!
Mathurin! The problem with hubs is that they are heavy! The geared ones are better but no wheres in the league of the outrunner and Lipo batts. Thats a travelers bike! Maybe a folding greenspeed trike with a 15 lb motor batt combo! Drool!!!!!!
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Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
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2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Re: Mini velo

Post by Mathurin » Dec 03, 2008 9:37 pm

Meh, enjoy your avoidable maintenance issues...
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 04, 2008 4:42 am

Mathurin wrote:Meh, enjoy your avoidable maintenance issues...
Belts need very little attention.

From everything I've read here, hub motors aren't exactly maintenence free :P

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Re: Mini velo

Post by Mathurin » Dec 04, 2008 5:24 am

Edit: Following post written while tired & under the influence.

mmm, you make a good point re the hubs, however there are a lot more hub bikes then otherwise on this forum, and the ones we read about are the ones that get problems. My perception can be skewed, but I think few non hub bikes here have gone through a set of tires. I am completely clueless as to how belts work, and I can only wish you huge success with it, but it seems to me most bikes like this use chains.

With the extra chains often come extra freewheels, bearings, very small chain cogs that wear super fast or custom made wearables, usually these things are exposed to the elements. I can only guess at suitable maintenance intervals assuming the bike gets used for daily transportation and has fenders, and I think that would be somewhere around once each 1-4 weeks depending on weather, where a geared hub would require a yearly repacking and a non-geared would need nothing extra over a conventional bicycle.

It just seems to me like hubs are generally a better way to go about building an ebike at this juncture, especially given 20" mini velos since you'd need seriously steep hill to make gear drive make sense, especially since something like a mini-velo could be made into sexXxy beast with a hubmotor.

Now if something like a Gruber assist turns up at a reasonable price & power, I'd want to ditch hub drive for the much better weight distribution & ability to use the gears if applicable... Maybe something like a crank arm with integrated motor-disk thing that somehow bolts on instead of the left crank... I dunno.
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Miles » Dec 04, 2008 6:08 am

Yes, chain drives would need more attention, for sure.

Things will get more interesting when multi-speed hub motors start to appear on the scene :)

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docnjoj
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Re: Mini velo

Post by docnjoj » Dec 04, 2008 8:20 am

As far as I can tell, there is no "avoidable maintainance" on an electric bike! :(
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Re: Mini velo

Post by northernmike » Jan 14, 2009 1:20 pm

No substitute for displacement = no substitute for wheel size / spoke count?

Image

???

Miles, I'm with you. My LBS is Curbside Cycle in Toronto, and after a lengthy discussion with Eric Kamphoff (their GM) last week I watched an interview with Alex Moulton on youtube where he discussed the development of his 'New Series' suspension, incorporating the Flexitor design of years ago.

Who hasn't heard the stories of Austin Mini Coopers (which Alex Moulton designed the suspension of) EATING Corvettes of the same vintage on racetracks continent-wide?

Genius!

Of course, there are those in favour of Minis who would not be caught dead in a Corvette, and conversely, those Corvette drivers who feel their "masculinity" would be challenged by being seen in something so small.

But who do you always see driving Corvettes? Balding, overweight middle aged men? Me too! Hmmn.

I could always pick up chicks in my VW Cabriolet. I wish I still had it, I'd electrify it...

Anyway.

I see the progession of medium-speed two wheeled electric vehicles such as these going in the direction mopeds went. Tube frames and large wheels initially, progressing to smaller wheels and more integrated designs.

Early Mobylette:

Image

Later:

Image

et al.

I'm not saying we'll all end up on 17"s. But I do like mine.

Image

Check out the video with Alex and tell me if you agree.

[googlevid]8522870086389552343[/googlevid]

<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.sw ... en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>

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Re: Mini velo

Post by northernmike » Jan 14, 2009 2:10 pm

err .. how do you get the 'googlevid' button to go?

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Re: Mini velo

Post by fitek » Jan 14, 2009 3:04 pm

Count another vote for 20". That's 6" you can lose off the length of a normal bike while still having the same wheelbase. Also lower CG on a recumbent. With a suspension the ride is great too.
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Re: Mini velo

Post by TylerDurden » Jan 14, 2009 3:20 pm

[googlevid]-8522870086389552343[/googlevid]

Code: Select all

[googlevid]-8522870086389552343[/googlevid]
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Re: Mini velo

Post by Mathurin » Jan 14, 2009 5:16 pm

docnjoj wrote:As far as I can tell, there is no "avoidable maintainance" on an electric bike! :(
otherDoc
Ah, I meant for example, you can avoid derailleur maintenance by not using one.


But somehow, I completely missed the main reason that sent me looking up these things, it's because carbide spike tires now exist in 20" and 24", Schwalbe marathon winter. So this means bikes are no longer restricted to running 26" or 700 wheels.
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Re: Mini velo

Post by deepfraught » Nov 01, 2016 12:23 am

Doctorbass wrote:I would be curious to see a race with man using normal 700c wheel and these new smaller wheel..

I'm almost curious about the efficiency !

Doc
Thought I'd plant a seed in the hope of seeing some extreme mini-velo project from Doctorbass in or back to the future.
John-in-CR has already done a very good job demonstrating the benefits of small wheel natural short gearing with hub motors.

Smaller wheels have acceleration and braking advantage, with the naturally short gearing advantageous for climbing.
Inefficiency of higher RPM bearing speed must take a penalty, maybe rolling resistance differences, but those feel relatively negligible compared to aerodynamics, especially when I'm near the coast of a top-10 of windiest cities in the world.

In this first video example after a long straight flat section an aero wheel 700c road bike passes me on 20in BMX style at the end of the flat, then he dies once the climb starts and I have to back off to avoid running into his rear once on the path.



If you look in the shadows, you can see my 8 inch BMX riser bar and commuter rear rack bag. 2.1in Big Apple front at lower pressure to take the hits and dull vibration through the bars, standard 1.35in Kojak rear at max pressure. Comfortable, convenient, but not light or aerodynamic for high road speed, still good for 25km trips.

Image

Strangely I have found myself around similar paced road bike riders 2 days in a row when this was recorded, and it can become a leap-frog ride where the 700c pulls away at top cruise speed, slows at inclines and is passed by my 20in, then 700c pulls away with downhills and higher speeds. As the underdog if I get the sense the other rider is good to ride around, I will pass to keep my momentum on the short climbs to avoid stopping like a stone as per the others.

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