Guerilla Charge

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Lurkin   100 kW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 12 2016 8:44pm

Yeah, this is the plan with charging the velo (yet to be designed/made). I intend to make a pack that can be used for Flux Beta, Q76R and the velo. Nice and interchangable, chargeable anywhere. Debate is whether to ditch the BMS to also allow solar charging and using power at the same time.

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Samd » May 12 2016 11:31pm

Common to guerilla charge here in Australia. Some friends rode from victoria to queensland last year, around 3800 km to 2300 miles.

They took a custom adapter with them, which has a male light bulb socket at one end to a female wall plug socket at the other. Many public camping areas don't have wall sockets but do have screw out lightbulbs.
I don't see it as theft from the state. Its only a handful of watthours.

Here's a commercial version, but a DIY version with a long cable is better.
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If they'd driven a car the same distance they'd be stealing the health of the environment from their grandkids with a much greater impact.
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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Sunder » May 13 2016 12:24am

miro13car wrote:Exactely.
Public schools are my favourite, next all kind of municipal buildings,
Never any bars or stinking gasoline stations.
I make my own coffee and carry with me.
The problem I have with that, is that there's a grey area - however big it is, between that, and walking up to a government building and walking out with an unattended laptop sitting on the front desk. Both are theft - the only difference is scale.

You paid your taxes, but there are approved and unapproved way to get value back out of those taxes. I don't know in the US, but in Australia, about 75% of people get more services than they pay in taxes. And it seems to me the less tax some pays, the more entitled to government services they are (which is good - the point of taxes is a government for all - which means helping those who need it.), but also the more entitled they feel (which is bad if they resort to stealing to get it.)
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by izeman » May 13 2016 3:40am

Agreed. No matter how big or small it is. Not asking is stealing. And arguing that by paying tax you are allowed to take the electricity is like taking the inventory out of any public authority because it was paid by 'your' taxes.

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Guerilla Charge

Post by Samd » May 14 2016 1:10am

Disagree. Light in a public barbecue space is public. No one else around and you want to convert that to motion it's no different.

If you sat below it with a solar panel and charged via light you wouldn't call it theft. But you'd be wasting public assets via inefficiency.

There's no argument in moral relativism.

Polluting the environment is future theft however.


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kiwiev   10 kW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by kiwiev » May 14 2016 3:41am

Samd wrote:Disagree. Light in a public barbecue space is public. No one else around and you want to convert that to motion it's no different.

If you sat below it with a solar panel and charged via light you wouldn't call it theft. But you'd be wasting public assets via inefficiency.

There's no argument in moral relativism.

Polluting the environment is future theft however.


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Yes I agree our kids kids will pay for out environmental cock ups, I like in Australia most EV charge stations are free and thats the way it should stay. You know it wouldn't be hard for Tesla to put a few 220 volt plugs in there charge stations.

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 14 2016 4:00am

Power outlets are freely available for use in public libraries. I charge my laptop and cellphone when I'm researching there, its there for public usage. It is definitely not considered theft and is the norm. Charging 18650s in a laptop, charging 18650s in an ebike pack.... hmmm. Intention of use is different, but again, its public and freely available. I don't consider/ see how it can be theft. They are available the public to use and I've never seen any form on notification there saying the power is for a specific purpose only.... I've charged a dolphin pack right out on the table, nothing to hide or see here. Tidy and discrete, no one gives a damn.

Occupying a socket when someone needs it to do their work/research? I can see an issue there, would definitely move if it was the only one around.

Jumping over a fence to a publicly funded school, going into a classroom and charging without asking? Yeah... no thanks. Going way too far for my liking, but nothing to do with theft, everything to do with trespassing and asking for trouble.

I don't its a cut and dried issue, I think it depends on context, notification available and a very good dose of common sense.

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Samd » May 14 2016 5:22am

Got a sneaky feeling that the majority of forum users may not abide by local power laws also :)


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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Sunder » May 14 2016 6:29am

Lurkin wrote:Power outlets are freely available for use in public libraries. I charge my laptop and cellphone when I'm researching there, its there for public usage. It is definitely not considered theft and is the norm. Charging 18650s in a laptop, charging 18650s in an ebike pack.... hmmm. Intention of use is different, but again, its public and freely available. I don't consider/ see how it can be theft.

Jumping over a fence to a publicly funded school, going into a classroom and charging without asking? Yeah... no thanks. Going way too far for my liking, but nothing to do with theft, everything to do with trespassing and asking for trouble.

I don't its a cut and dried issue, I think it depends on context, notification available and a very good dose of common sense.
That I agree with. Big difference between using a power point in a library, shopping centre, or public BBQ - all of which are set up for public use, and trespassing onto a public school - almost all which are fully fenced and have no trespassing signs on it, to get power.

My rule of thumb is that if you need to trespass to get power, then the power use is theft. Otherwise its probably okay but still better to ask if there's someone to ask.
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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by \/ampa » May 14 2016 7:22am

Its not theft !

You pay back by being a non polluter !

Watch what the powerlines are wasting just transvering the power fro the plant over many miles around the country..... Is this theft of powerlines in the Gigggaaaawaaaatt range? some one cares ??? put inefficient powerlines in jail ?

Even if all ebikers would do it all times it would only be a fraction of this waste in the powerlines, everybuddy is paying fro.

Yeah i did it already often, even being watched by a bunch of lycras, they couldnt care less !!
If there is no one to ask and its a semi public plug. just do it...

Just my 20c :mrgreen:

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by MrDude_1 » May 14 2016 8:00am

Everyone making clams of it's ok because of the environment or pollution is delusional.

If you have to make that argument, you're not in the right. Pick a different one. If you can't, then you shouldn't be doing it.


Don't disagree with this, I'm trying to help you interact with the real world.
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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by \/ampa » May 14 2016 8:08am

Yeah sometimes not the best arguments win, but the best pay'd lawyer.
Sad world.

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MrDude_1   100 kW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by MrDude_1 » May 14 2016 9:53am

\/ampa wrote:Yeah sometimes not the best arguments win, but the best pay'd lawyer.
Sad world.
No. It's just not a good argument.
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by izeman » May 14 2016 10:20am

+1. I would even say it's big BS. Arguing that way you could excuse everything you're doing because there is someone doing something worse somewhere. Stupid. Sorry to say that.

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Sunder » May 14 2016 5:50pm

\/ampa wrote: Watch what the powerlines are wasting just transvering the power fro the plant over many miles around the country..... Is this theft of powerlines in the Gigggaaaawaaaatt range? some one cares ??? put inefficient powerlines in jail ?

Even if all ebikers would do it all times it would only be a fraction of this waste in the powerlines, everybuddy is paying fro.
Wait. I must be misunderstanding this argument. Because if it says what I think it says, then by this logic, I can fill up my car for free from any petrol (gas) station that doesn't use vapour recovery, because what I'm taking is just a fraction of the waste (and pollution!) that these petrol stations cause by not using vapour recovery systems.

This is reminding of a court case in Sydney that was televised about 3 years ago. A guy deliberately rammed into a group of cyclists including an Australian Olympian. When he was summoned up to court, he was so confident he was right he self represented. In his opening statement, he said that the charges should be dropped, because he couldn't possibly be in the wrong, because the cyclists were not permitted to be there. Therefore any "accident" was the cyclist's fault. Asked to clarify by the judged, he fully believed that cyclists were not permitted ride on the road.

I can just imagine \/ampa doing exactly the same thing if he's ever up on trespass or theft of service charges "Your honour, these charges should be dropped, because I'm stealing less than they're wasting and saving the planet to boot! I should be getting a medal for this, not being in the dock!"

Something can be ethical but illegal. The judge might go easy on you because you had no malicious intent and the loss to the victim was negligible, but that doesn't make it right, or you immune.
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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by \/ampa » May 14 2016 6:30pm

That is the famouse apple - orange comparison paradox. :)

I just wanted put it into a perspective. We are so few ebikers and have absolutely no infrastructure for recharging.

I am sure a case of |stealing| 20 cent worth of _electrons_ from an openly accessable not deaktivated power outlet wouldn't even get an approval to be debated in a court.
You can also always say you asked someone and he allowed it you, but you can't remamber exatly which person.
Last edited by \/ampa on May 15 2016 3:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Samd » May 14 2016 9:19pm

I'm pretty sure the title of this thread was how to do it.
Not should you do it.


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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by \/ampa » May 14 2016 9:35pm

\/ampa wrote:You can also always say you asked someone and he allowed it you, but you can't remamber exatly which person.
Thats how to do it. :lol:

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by miro13car » May 15 2016 6:15am

[quote="Sunder"][quote="Lurkin"]..... trespassing onto a public school - almost all which are fully fenced and have no trespassing signs on it, to get power.

My rule of thumb is that if you need to trespass to get power, then the power use is theft. Otherwise its probably okay but still better to ask if there's someone to ask.[/quote]

trespassing??? into public school??? maybe in Australia,not where I live
fully fenced ????? maybe in Australia , where I live and charge schools grounds are wide opened for public.
Outlets are on wall of school buildings or on posts at parking spots.

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 15 2016 6:34am

Yes, in Australia schools are generally fenced off, particularly after hours.

In New Zealand it was the opposite, school grounds were generally relatively open all the time. Still, it would be weird to go to a school for charging purposes unless there was an outdoor outlet in a park like area. It would certainly be considered weird, if not trespassing to enter a building or classroom without discussing it with school staff first. A library might be an exception, but given it's a school, it would be more normal to discuss it with someone first.

Cultural norms and charge point positions probably change from country to country..... is what it is.

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by miro13car » May 15 2016 8:38am

Maybe I was not clear,
I said on the wall of school building , OUTSIDE of course,
who would in his right mind go inside school ????
You mean
no outside plugs in NZ and AUS ????

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by izeman » May 15 2016 11:05am

So your advise is to lie? Ah. I forgot: it's just a little lie. So it's not really a lie. I guess i can follow your arguments now. ;)
I guess i should stop paying taxes as long as Apple, Google and Co don't do it either. Compared to what they should pay my taxes are neglectable.

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by miro13car » May 15 2016 11:28am

izeman,
I dont quite understand,
lie? lie about what?
what lie are you talking about?

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by izeman » May 15 2016 11:50am

miro13car wrote:izeman,
I dont quite understand,
lie? lie about what?
what lie are you talking about?
Sorry. When i replied i didn't see your posts the after Vampa's who wrote :

"You can also always say you asked someone and he allowed it you, but you can't remamber exatly which person"

So he's lying about stealing... ;)

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Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by 999zip999 » May 15 2016 1:24pm

We are talking about 8-12 cents usd. Who gives a rat's ass.

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