Guerilla Charge

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
molybdenum   100 W

100 W
Posts: 299
Joined: Feb 20 2014 11:09am
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by molybdenum » May 15 2016 1:40pm

I've often heard forum members offer the good advise to ride in a respectful manner to help advocate the usage of ebikes to improve the environment and to prevent the government from adopting a heavy hand when legislating new laws. I think the same thing applies for accessing publicly accessible plugs for a recharge.

Irrespective of one's actual motives, the public's perception that an ebiker is stealing power is what's important here. We don't want to be seen as a bunch of hooligans, and it is best to be prudent and use good judgement/ask for permission when accessing plugs for a charge mid-journey.

Asking for a charge also presents an opportunity to showcase emerging ebike and battery technology to the general public.

Remember that when people make a purchase, they're not just buying into ebiking, they're buying into the ebike culture - we should make it palatable.
2012 Kona Dew Deluxe, Q128C and 9spd cassette, S12S sinewave controller, 48V Panasonic battery

User avatar
izeman   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4929
Joined: Jun 21 2011 8:25am
Location: vienna, austria
Contact:

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by izeman » May 15 2016 2:20pm

999zip999 wrote:We are talking about 8-12 cents usd. Who gives a rat's ass.
so how much should it be to be relevant?

rider95   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 317
Joined: Apr 25 2014 11:18am
Location: North west Indy

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by rider95 » May 15 2016 5:01pm

I find a patio or deck and just plug in the waitress just thinks I am keeping a eye on my bike I get a beer or lunch to her its just the same as me charging my phone no big deal , one time I asked a bike shop if I could plug in while I went in ate lunch and he said no . I wish I knew this before I spent $15 bucks in his shop which I told him .

Lurkin   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1428
Joined: Jan 18 2015 4:31pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 15 2016 9:53pm

izeman wrote:
999zip999 wrote:We are talking about 8-12 cents usd. Who gives a rat's ass.
so how much should it be to be relevant?
because despite technical discussion about whether it constitutes theft or not, most people have a pragmatic approach to life. 12 cents is not material to most, hence, it would get overlooked.

Its gets subjective with different people and different amounts/materiality thresholds, but could explain the difference in opinion in this thread. That and how concerned forum users about sticking to legal principles, which on this forum, is reasonably ironic.

If anything, its interesting that vendor has refused access to power, despite being a customer there and reinforces that there is probably a perception of 'needing a charge' = needs loads of electricity and would be material (makes sense if you consider the cost to 'fill up' a fossil fuels vehicle). I've found this interesting because it goes to show its worth asking first, and really not worth the trouble if someone decides you are 'mass power thief to be stopped at all costs' because as earlier discussed, without permission, it could quite easily legally constitute theft despite being over peanuts.

User avatar
Sunder   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Sunder » May 15 2016 11:13pm

Lurkin wrote:
izeman wrote:
999zip999 wrote:We are talking about 8-12 cents usd. Who gives a rat's ass.
so how much should it be to be relevant?
because despite technical discussion about whether it constitutes theft or not, most people have a pragmatic approach to life. 12 cents is not material to most, hence, it would get overlooked.

Its gets subjective with different people and different amounts/materiality thresholds, but could explain the difference in opinion in this thread.
Maybe for some. For others it could be more empathy. For example, a friend just told me how a charity collector walked into his house looking for someone to talk to - didn't steal or touch a thing, so amount/threshold didn't have anything to do with it - but an uninvited stranger just made him feel uncomfortable.

Likewise, I know that even if I don't enter a locked building in a public school, just entering inclosed land can mean that a security guard has to not only check YOU out, but check every building out to make sure you didn't break into anything.
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

Eskimo   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 503
Joined: Feb 25 2013 9:16am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Eskimo » May 16 2016 1:00am

I have done kind of guerilla charging once two years ago. In simply had to. There was this outback remote airfield and there was small airshow there that i went to see because original Spitfire was flying there. I asked can i charge, i will pay, and did not receive clear reply, only some negative muttering. It was forty miles from a nearest civilization and i was out of juice. It was bit confusing, they propably thought i was running the whole grid down with my needs. I bought 30 euro ticket to see the show...let"s say my conscience accepted my charge as a part of the ticket price. These days i usually try to call beforehand if i know that getting the charge will be critical.
Member of a 10 000 mile club
http://helsinkiheroes.com/

User avatar
MrDude_1   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1015
Joined: Aug 17 2012 3:07pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by MrDude_1 » May 16 2016 7:41am

\/ampa wrote:That is the famouse apple - orange comparison paradox. :)

I just wanted put it into a perspective. We are so few ebikers and have absolutely no infrastructure for recharging.

I am sure a case of |stealing| 20 cent worth of _electrons_ from an openly accessable not deaktivated power outlet wouldn't even get an approval to be debated in a court.
You can also always say you asked someone and he allowed it you, but you can't remamber exatly which person.
No infrastructure? you're plugging into the infrastructure. thats not an argument.



ebiking is not a right. Its not a requirement.. its a choice you are choosing to do for fun. You could walk your ass everywhere your ebike gets you, nevermind the fact it has pedals.

taking something and then preaching about how great it is, is not a good or sane way to go. You are in the wrong. You dont like this because you may really want or even feel you need that plug outlet. You may think you deserve it... but in the eyes of the law, you are unauthorized.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

User avatar
MrDude_1   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1015
Joined: Aug 17 2012 3:07pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by MrDude_1 » May 16 2016 7:48am

Lurkin wrote:
izeman wrote:
999zip999 wrote:We are talking about 8-12 cents usd. Who gives a rat's ass.
so how much should it be to be relevant?
because despite technical discussion about whether it constitutes theft or not, most people have a pragmatic approach to life. 12 cents is not material to most, hence, it would get overlooked.

Its gets subjective with different people and different amounts/materiality thresholds, but could explain the difference in opinion in this thread. That and how concerned forum users about sticking to legal principles, which on this forum, is reasonably ironic.

If anything, its interesting that vendor has refused access to power, despite being a customer there and reinforces that there is probably a perception of 'needing a charge' = needs loads of electricity and would be material (makes sense if you consider the cost to 'fill up' a fossil fuels vehicle). I've found this interesting because it goes to show its worth asking first, and really not worth the trouble if someone decides you are 'mass power thief to be stopped at all costs' because as earlier discussed, without permission, it could quite easily legally constitute theft despite being over peanuts.

bullshit. Most people do NOT have a pragmatic approach to life. You do less than 12 cents of damage walking on someones lawn... but how many people get pissed about that?
If I offered a guy $6 after helping me move, or doing a weld or something, it would be an insult... yet handing him a 6 pack of beer is a great thank you.

the actual number of dollars holds little value,as much as HOW something is done. like above when the salesman walked into the house. I dont like ANYONE coming to my door, regardless of what they're doing. (funny side note, the guy that is now the mayor went door to door before the election. He remembered me as the guy that convinced him that going door to door annoying people was NOT the way to win anyones votes over. :lol: )

If I caught you plugging your ebike into my house, and I dont know you... You are walking home. frock off.
If you come up to me and said "this is an odd request, but my battery is low..." I love ebikes and will not only help you, but I can probably plug you into my adjustable charger for a 1C charge.

Perspective and appearance is much more important than monetary value.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

User avatar
wineboyrider   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sep 30 2009 9:08am
Location: Tularosa, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by wineboyrider » May 16 2016 8:31am

That's why I ask first. But, usually you get a bunch of puzzled looks and grunts. Once I was charging my bike at the go kart track and I actually happen to know the owner and he caught me charging my bike. :oops: I apologized too him and then politely asked if I could do this again in the future and he was more interested in how my electric bicycle worked and not at all concerned that I was stealing his electricity. 8)
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

miro13car   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1621
Joined: Mar 26 2007 1:30pm
Location: Calgary, Canada

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by miro13car » May 16 2016 2:07pm

Exactely
Puzzeld looks,
In my view there is private and there is public properties.
Most dont care a damn about something plugged into school parking receptacle , there must be property tax payer anyway draing cents of electrifity
They are more interested in my ebike and how it works
Security guard t school after hours, in AUS ?.. not here , schools ground wide opened for public.
Who pays for that?

Lurkin   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1428
Joined: Jan 18 2015 4:31pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 16 2016 3:48pm

MrDude wrote:
bullshit. Most people do NOT have a pragmatic approach to life.

...

Perspective and appearance is much more important than monetary value.
There's a strong difference between trespassing and stealing. You are discussing trespassing, then stealing. Obviously, this activity is wrong and it is out of context of what I am discussing. This has already been covered in this thread. There is no value persisting in returning to this concept. If people persist do to this, they can expect a pretty ugly response from the property owner.

Back in the much younger, downhill days we took a shortcut through a farm, unauthorized. Did not damage anything we took nothing at all, but the farmer took exception and advised of it with his shotgun!!!!

I was discussing the use of publicly available outlets without requesting permission for small amounts of electricity. This is still guerilla charging as no permission has been granted.

I stick with what I have said in the context I have discussed. Pretty unlikely that someone will come and chase after you for 12 cents of power from a public library... it's publicly available and immaterial to their bill overall.

Put it round the other way. What if charging slurped so much power it shut down everything else in the library and resulted in a large bill? No doubt if the connection between charging and the event was made perhaps the freely available would change or worse...

In any case, the importance of monetary value remains. Sure, prima face you might only care about someone using public resources or "stealing" them. But when you find out its 12 cents... is really worth arguing about? I don't think so. Would you ring the police and tell them someone's stealing 12 cents of electricity? Or would you leave out the value because you will get laughed off the phone? Would you do anything about it at all? Do you really think a judge wants to hear about 12 cents of electricity? Lol!

Lurkin   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1428
Joined: Jan 18 2015 4:31pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 16 2016 4:01pm

Meanwhile you've provided a example of how a pragmatic approach to life actually works. Does a friend helping you move have a contract of employment including a wage to help you move? No, it's practical not to, nor would they be a friend doing so, they would be your employee.

What if you gave them a 10 cent lollipop? Would they be as happy as a six pack of beer?

It's a pragmatic means of barter payment based on cultural norms. You expect then to accept it because of its social value but in turn, it still has a monetary value.... would you buy more expensive, nice beer, or really cheap nasty beer?

... This is a pragmatic approach to the same situation, based on cultural norms and monetary value does matter. Further, it's not based on legalities......

User avatar
molybdenum   100 W

100 W
Posts: 299
Joined: Feb 20 2014 11:09am
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by molybdenum » May 16 2016 4:33pm

People do occasionally get charged (pardon the pun):

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/ga-man-a ... ePage=true
2012 Kona Dew Deluxe, Q128C and 9spd cassette, S12S sinewave controller, 48V Panasonic battery

User avatar
Samd   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3667
Joined: Jun 28 2011 11:08pm
Location: Ballarat, AU
Contact:

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Samd » May 16 2016 5:39pm

Yep. And they get charged for overpowered bikes too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://ballaratebikes.com/

ImageImageImage
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

Lurkin   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1428
Joined: Jan 18 2015 4:31pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Lurkin » May 16 2016 5:48pm

molybdenum wrote:People do occasionally get charged (pardon the pun):

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/ga-man-a ... ePage=true
The police say that Kamooneh was warned about being on the school property, but Kamooneh said he was never warned about not using the school's power. According to a police report, school employees said they had seen him on school property previously, "specifically the tennis courts," but Kamooneh said only he, the tennis instructor and his son are typically at the school on Saturdays or Sundays.

Kamooneh intends to defend the charge in court in February.

"I'm pretty confident that this is going to be laughed out of court," he said.


Charged, but not as of yet convicted if he intends to fight the charge.

It does raise an interesting point. What if you ask, its authorized, then revoked by another individual from the same property? It not like you can give back the electricity...

DRMousseau   100 W

100 W
Posts: 206
Joined: May 01 2016 5:10am
Location: Panama City, FL (Jan-June) Traverse City, MI (June-Dec)

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by DRMousseau » May 16 2016 7:06pm

The issue here is one of courtesy,.... respect, thoughtfulness, and a touch of consideration.
If folks were a bit mindful of such matters, we wouldn't be so plagued with self-serving arrogance, and offensive abuse!!!!

My tiny 6.5lb pack is rather unobtrusive and subdued when removed my bike and I ask, "Can I charge-up my bike battery here?"
My charger is not presented as the appearance of such technology may influence a bit of negativity, which is what we sometimes are trying to overcome!!!!

I ALWAYS ASK!!! It's a matter of courtesy and respect!!!! And it's reflective of my considerate thoughtfulness,... after all, it is not MY power source in ANY manner!!!!

Whether it's WalMart, the Library, the coffee shop, gas station, restaurant or a friends house,... I ALWAYS ask, ALL the time!!!
And sometimes, one isn't "fully authorized" to permit such,... "Would you know if I can plug my battery in to this to charge a bit???"
"Don't know, but we use it for yardwork around here with no trouble. Don't see why not."

THIS,... is my ONLY "grey area".
"Guerilla Charging"!?! Are we "animals"???? Subversive??? Antagonists????
What happened to civility???

miro13car   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1621
Joined: Mar 26 2007 1:30pm
Location: Calgary, Canada

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by miro13car » May 17 2016 11:08am

Always ask ?.
Whom?
School is closed, weekend,

User avatar
llile   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 443
Joined: Dec 18 2010 7:30pm

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by llile » May 17 2016 12:44pm

DRMousseau wrote:The issue here is one of courtesy,.... respect, thoughtfulness, and a touch of consideration.


I ALWAYS ASK!!! It's a matter of courtesy and respect!!!! And it's reflective of my considerate thoughtfulness,... after all, it is not MY power source in ANY manner!!!!

THIS,... is my ONLY "grey area".
"Guerilla Charging"!?! Are we "animals"???? Subversive??? Antagonists????
What happened to civility???
OK, the thread title "Guerilla Charge" was definitely used as clickbait. I in no way condone stealing. But now that you all are here, let's take the high road on this thread! Where have you successfully asked for a charge? For example did you get permission at a Wal-Mart? How did that go?
Last edited by llile on May 17 2016 1:23pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
llile   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 443
Joined: Dec 18 2010 7:30pm

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by llile » May 17 2016 1:22pm

Sunder wrote:
If you want a quick and dirty "Opportunistic" charge, then building or buying a J1772 to NEMA adaptor and a really big charger would be the go.
Source of supply? How much did you pay? This sounds like an excellent idea. I've dived into the specs of J1772 and concluded that an adapter would be a feasible hack, but didn't know you could just buy one.

ecycler   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 801
Joined: Apr 03 2014 9:30pm
Location: USA

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by ecycler » May 17 2016 4:08pm

Doh! I just saw this was already posted. It is a pretty good read:

http://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-owner- ... community/
Any grease is better than no grease.
The best exercises are the ones you enjoy doing.
I strongly prefer vehicles without doors.

User avatar
Sunder   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Sunder » May 17 2016 10:14pm

llile wrote:
Sunder wrote:
If you want a quick and dirty "Opportunistic" charge, then building or buying a J1772 to NEMA adaptor and a really big charger would be the go.
Source of supply? How much did you pay? This sounds like an excellent idea. I've dived into the specs of J1772 and concluded that an adapter would be a feasible hack, but didn't know you could just buy one.
I didn't end up getting one, and the vendor I was looking at is no longer doing it. But the complete kit is about $150, or you can buy parts and assemble it yourself for <$100 + cable (Note - at 32A, cable can get expensive!)

I did find an eBay link for the type of cable I was talking about though. All you need to do is buy a Nema Socket to solder on to the other end and a box to neaten everything up, and you're ready to go:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/J1772-Socket-In ... 7675.l2557
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 on 36S
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Waiting for warranty to expire
eHouse: 5.5kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

craneplaneguy   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 783
Joined: Nov 27 2015 9:15am
Location: S.E. Idaho USA

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by craneplaneguy » May 19 2016 11:13am

Here is how I plan to present my battery for recharging to someone else, a waitress or bartender for instance. The padded bag with the adjustable straps is the same that I use to hang the battery from the Montague's frame, so no extra weight or gear to carry. Everything all ready to go, just "plug this in please if you don't mind, I'll make it worth your while."
Attachments
5-16-16.jpg

Ade   100 W

100 W
Posts: 155
Joined: Nov 13 2014 3:29am

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Ade » May 19 2016 3:47pm

craneplaneguy wrote:Here is how I plan to present my battery for recharging to someone else, a waitress or bartender for instance. The padded bag with the adjustable straps is the same that I use to hang the battery from the Montague's frame, so no extra weight or gear to carry. Everything all ready to go, just "plug this in please if you don't mind, I'll make it worth your while."
Don't forget to add, "It's not a bomb. Honest."
Nakamura bigbob 4.0 Fatbike with (Luna) 120mm BBSHD and 14ah shark pack with QA cells.

User avatar
cal3thousand   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3606
Joined: Mar 26 2012 4:47pm
Location: California

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by cal3thousand » May 19 2016 5:24pm

craneplaneguy's battery pack looks like one is supposed to when asking non-ebikers for a plug. It shouldn't look like the business proprietor is sponsoring your personal science experiment for the next hour.

But, I never ask that they plug it in for me. I just ask for an open plug, or I find one and then ask if I can plug my battery in. Many times, at chain locations, I don't even ask. I act the same as the dude that brought his laptop in to charge and no one questions it since my pack is 'public-eye-ready'. Panera Bread, Starbucks, McDonald's, Carl's Jr (aka Hardy's) are a few places that I have had no issues with. It's not stealing in this case. There is a general, unspoken, agreement in many places of business (especially ones that have a public stock offering) that allows you to plug in your personal devices while patronizing their business. This 'rule' is generally aimed towards busy folks that need their laptop or cell phones charged. And these folks that use the electricity and free Wifi often sit there and consume more Watt-hours than I do. My 'guerilla' (for lack of a better word) charge experiences have generally been just enough to get me back home; along the lines of 5 cents. Anyone that quibbles over 5 cents has something wrong with them. At this point, in the US, 5 cents is not worth your breath and someone that wastes their breath over those 5 cents should get their head checked.
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

User avatar
Bicycle365   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 16 2016 12:17am
Location: Northeast Corner United States
Contact:

Re: Guerilla Charge

Post by Bicycle365 » May 19 2016 8:44pm

Did my first on-the-go charge this week. Just took the Arkel Trunk bag off and carried it in with me (Steak House Chain) , asked if I could sit at the bar instead of being seated at a table since I was alone. Found a seat near an open outlet and when the server came over to greet me I simply asked " Do you mind if I charge my laptop ?" pointing to my Tailrider bag. She said "no Problem people do it all the time " EZ as pie , who's gonna look in the bag to see if it really is a laptop ? Appetizer, Burger, Fries, a couple sodas and 350 watt hours, $22.00
Look at your join date and your # of posts. If >1 per day, please read more and type less. We will both be smarter for it.

Post Reply