Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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LockH   100 GW

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Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 21 2016 1:11pm

... to promote long-distance cycling:
http://www.firstpost.com/world/extra-mi ... 89848.html

Includes:
They will eventually feature free charging stations for e-bikes...
WATTT??? OK. How `bout Plan B:
A series of generic "standard" sized batteries, with a series of Pack SWAP (solar) stations. So, ebikers pull up, (checks station does have available packs, at least one fully recharged) deposit one spent - or near so - battery, get one "freshie", near fully recharged pack (recharged by one "state of the art" BMS cell by cell system) to drop into ebike battery plug/slot/wattEVer. Total time spent to "recharge"? Maybe one minute.

Plan A at this point seems to involves Ebiker standing around and twiddling their thumbs. Shuffling their feet. Etc. While pack takes "forever" to recharge.

So. Plan A? Or Plan B?

Just curious.

EDIT: Alle Leute hier aus Deutschland?

EDIT (again. sorry): Price of Admission to this new Club/wattEVer? Buy one brand new "generic" pack.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by WoodlandHills » May 21 2016 1:26pm

LockH wrote:... to promote long-distance cycling:
http://www.firstpost.com/world/extra-mi ... 89848.html

Includes:
They will eventually feature free charging stations for e-bikes...
WATTT??? OK. How `bout Plan B:
A series of generic "standard" sized batteries, with a series of Pack SWAP (solar) stations. So, ebikers pull up, (checks station does have available packs, at least one fully recharged) deposit one spent - or near so - battery, get one "freshie", near fully recharged pack (recharged by one "state of the art" BMS cell by cell system) to drop into ebike battery plug/slot/wattEVer. Total time spent to "recharge"? Maybe one minute.

Plan A at this point seems to involves Ebiker standing around and twiddling their thumbs. Shuffling their feet. Etc. While pack takes "forever" to recharge.

So. Plan A? Or Plan B?

Just curious.

EDIT: Alle Leute hier aus Deutschland?
It would be a piece of cake, all you have to do is get the cycling population to decide what voltage to make the packs and which mount and case format and cell chemistry to standardize on and then order a few thousand. And however many chargers, secure swap machines, and associated real estate for the battery service shops you need and viola! Then all you need to do is sign up enough people to make it work and hope that technology hasnt obsoleted your choices before you get them into the field.

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 21 2016 1:42pm

hehe... "improve" things... Looked at a periodic table lately? See where Li sits? Suspect some blend of Li will be around for a loooong time, in chemical cell fashion. :wink:

I'd suggest "48" volts as standard. Local building codes `round here at least saw off voltages as "low" and "high" at 50 volts.

And "signing up" folks? IF they are already buying an ebike with any suitable connection to attach one (or more?) "generic" packs.... Whole system ("network") of swap stations could start out small - one/two/three packs per station - but be expandable. Like expanding the number of solar panels on a solar "farm".

I don't EVen know if there is such a thing as a "generic" size. But some of these "bottle"-type packs these daze are looking pretty "standard" to me. hehe
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by miro13car » May 21 2016 2:14pm

Germany are falling apart into third world standards as we speak.

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Dauntless » May 22 2016 1:48pm

miro13car wrote:Germany are falling apart into third world standards as we speak.
I'd say that's a bit much, but as the rest of the Europe slides and demands to flood into Germany when they can't work at home, the Germans are dragged downward. They probably don't have much hope of surviving European collapse. Hard to say it'll ultimately 3rd world there.

Meanwhile, you can SUGGEST things to people, like you can lead a horse to water. . . .

I think they'd wind up with 24v bikes because they'll insist low power, like the 250w so many require. EVENTUALLY there'd be a standard plug, but you know how long that could take. I can't imagine that if there isn't someone supervising battery swaps that they wouldn't disappear, get destroyed, etc. Battery swap will never work.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by miro13car » May 22 2016 2:19pm

" I'd say that's a bit much, but as the rest of the Europe slides and demands to flood into Germany "

rest of Europe?
unless you watch YouTube you can not see in the official news - floods of people from NAfrica, Middle East, shortly million so called refugees to flood Germany alone to the end of this year. Invasion .
I agree battery exchange must be supervised by human , no automated will not work.

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LewTwo » May 22 2016 4:01pm

What about controllers that recognize the the battery pack voltage (as many already do).
An extra battery connector that can be adapted to the "standard' (please not the huge 50 Amp andersons).
Maybe some kind of 'chipped' ID card exchange:
... Insert discharged battery
... Insert card
... Withdraw one fresh battery

???
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Cephalotus » May 22 2016 6:06pm

LockH wrote: I'd suggest "48" volts as standard. Local building codes `round here at least saw off voltages as "low" and "high" at 50 volts.
I guess that more than 80% of the 3 million ebikes already sold in Germany use a 36V battery.

But there is a zillion of designs out there. A battery standard does NOT exist and will never exist. Maybe a battery charging standard (Energy Bus / Rosenberg plug), but this is far, far away from reality at the moment. People want and buy unique battery designs, they do not want and buy standard batteries. There is a huge growing market for specialy designed and "integrated" batteries and less and less market for add on batteries in "shared" form factors.

A battery swapping station is completely impossible, unless you provide the people with identical ebike systems, too. Not even batteries from one manufacturer are interchangeble.

And besides that. How about bringing your old battery there and changing it for a new one. Saves a few hundred Euros for the user.

I assume you now the German climate. You have an average of lets say 30 nice weekend days within one year where you will have thousands of people demanding interchnageble batteries for their nice weather trip once per year. On the other hand there are 200 days a year when not anybody will do any long distance cycling here.

There is one universal standard to any ebike / pedelec and this is the 230V AC plug for the charger. So you need a 230V socket, a place to lock your bicycle and a place to lock your battery and your charger.

If you want some quick charging in 15 minutes take a quick charger and build a suitable battery.

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Dauntless » May 22 2016 7:33pm

miro13car wrote:rest of Europe?
unless you watch YouTube you can not see in the official news - floods of people from NAfrica, Middle East, shortly million so called refugees to flood Germany alone to the end of this year. Invasion .
Actually it is in the news in The U.S. The reporting here is they've been fairly successful at stemming the African, Middle Eastern, etc., with a lot of fingerpointing from the rest of the world that they're somehow wrong to do so. The crazy notion that if someone wants to stream over your borders to begin the rape and pillage, you're obligated to let them.

I wonder if they'll learn about the ebikes and take some home.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavli ... e-n2100918
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 22 2016 9:58pm

Cephalotus wrote:
LockH wrote: I'd suggest "48" volts as standard. Local building codes `round here at least saw off voltages as "low" and "high" at 50 volts.
I guess that more than 80% of the 3 million ebikes already sold in Germany use a 36V battery.
OK then, 36 volts. :wink:
But there is a zillion of designs out there. A battery standard does NOT exist and will never exist. Maybe a battery charging standard (Energy Bus / Rosenberg plug), but this is far, far away from reality at the moment. People want and buy unique battery designs, they do not want and buy standard batteries. There is a huge growing market for specialy designed and "integrated" batteries and less and less market for add on batteries in "shared" form factors.

A battery swapping station is completely impossible, unless you provide the people with identical ebike systems, too. Not even batteries from one manufacturer are interchangeble.
OK. Perhaps the plugs that mate batteries ... (to controllers?) are more... "generic". The battery packs themselves might be in various shapes and sizes, but the connections? Perhaps packs from any charging stations might "fit" into some sort of (sloppy fit/oversized) pouch/bag with a "generic" plug to connect in while the "main" discharged battery could be left disconnected to get recharged somewhere else/ some other time?
And besides that. How about bringing your old battery there and changing it for a new one. Saves a few hundred Euros for the user.
Gotta think about this. Get back to you. :wink:
I assume you now the German climate. You have an average of lets say 30 nice weekend days within one year where you will have thousands of people demanding interchangeable batteries for their nice weather trip once per year. On the other hand there are 200 days a year when not anybody will do any long distance cycling here.
Point. :oops: I'm more of a year `round cyclist. I was imagining roads/trails that go from town to town. To help expand the range of ebikes to make them more useful over longer distances.
There is one universal standard to any ebike / pedelec and this is the 230V AC plug for the charger. So you need a 230V socket, a place to lock your bicycle and a place to lock your battery and your charger.
If you want some quick charging in 15 minutes take a quick charger and build a suitable battery.
Hmmm... "Quick" charging. Have sorta thought that in any chemical cell chemistry that "slower is better". For both discharge AND charge. Yes? (Where cells are less "stressed" and last longer.)

I was shooting to get a "quick" charge down to about ONE minute, by swapping packs such that they aren't actually "quick" charged at all.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by macribs » May 22 2016 10:19pm

Battery swapping I do not think will be great. What if you swap a battery in great condition for one that has had a tough life with minimal TLC?

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Eskimo » May 22 2016 11:26pm

We need Tesla-like supercharger network for e-bikes. Lipos comply already :) Fifteen minutes is ok break to wait. Even thirty minutes would be acceptable if there"s a cafe.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 22 2016 11:54pm

[Crying Uncle here] OK, OK. So 1) "Identical" battery packs are a pipe dream. Maybe.
And 2)... Going back to Battery University re "fast" charging:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... t_chargers
Like an aging man, its physical condition becomes less ideal with use and age. So is the ability to fast-charge.
[sigh] `Kay. Maybe Plan C.

Along trails, solar panels recharge some sort of bank of batteries. These "stations" in turn feed power to overhead power cables. Ebikers can connect to these overhead wires ("rails"?) and a connection like a trolley, electric train, etc would mean ebikers don't even draw power from their own batteries for any travels along these trails.

Image

Maybe?
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Dauntless » May 23 2016 12:37am

Awww, nobody faults you for dreaming. The best things are just out of reach. As the guy who took this picture says:
Tim Walker wrote:“Ever since I was a little boy, I always hoped to see a monster in the woods. Now, we all get to!”
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Raged » May 23 2016 4:13am

Hrmm... I need to check if the bike pit centres we have also provide free power. All the electric BBQ's are free to use, so I dont know why there wouldnt be a free charging station with a standard power plug.

Bike pit centre is a stop at the local park where councils provide air pumps/drinking water/etc along bike trails.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 23 2016 5:44am

"nobody faults you for dreaming"? For suggesting technology that's been in use for over a century? Locally (to me), electric trains don't use or have batteries at all, as far as I know.

To quote the first paragraph of this article from Germany:
On 30 May, cycling enthusiasts in Berlin will gather to discuss the possibilities of constructing bicycle highways across Germany. This meeting, titled Parliamentary evening, will be attended by noted parliamentarians and state secretaries, responsible for urban development and infrastructure.
... and
"Christian Schwägerl, environmental journalist and author of several books, including his latest The Anthropocene: The Human Era and How It Shapes Our Planet, suggests a comprehensive strategy." ... and "... offering services like e-charging stations"
Anyway. So, while we (some of us, maybe) are "dreaming"... Plan C would involve offering some sort of brushed etc connection to a wire or rail conductor that runs along the trail that folks can connect/deconnect to easily. You may have seen or heard of miniature toys called "slot cars". Turns out they're not a dream at all! :shock:


So. And you can't see some sort of human scale track system that you can switch to from your onboard battery for that distance trip to the next town? You would tell a group of German "cycling enthusiasts" it's just a "dream" to move objects by rails using electrics? Forgive me if this seems a little weird to me.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by macribs » May 23 2016 6:27am

Trolleybuses get their sparks from the top like the bumper cars on Circus :)

The only way we will get away from the smog and pollution is by thinking new thoughts. Not the same thoughts we've been thinking for decades.
Bike highways into major cities could be a reality. If there would be enough political support behind it. Movements always starts at the ground. So cyclists unite.

If there where multi lanes, bridges or undergrounds over/under busy intersections or even tunnels made for bikes kind of like the subways but for bikes/ebikes that would be great. Even in harsh weather you would arrive relatively dry even in pouring rain if the better part of commute could be in a tunnel. For a substantial mass of converters to green transportation we would need bike commute to be safer then it is today and far less daunting and time consuming. I would welcome bike highways. Heck I could even stomach a tax increase if the extra tax was dedicated to make bicycling easier, safer, more accessible and less time consuming. And while we are at it. Automated bike parking houses in and around city centers, and wherever there are a high number of workers rolling in each morning. Let the ebike charge there too. Just bring our own wire and plug it into a standard wall outlet.

How high percentage of converters from stink cars to bike is needed to make a major impact? Probably a lot less then what we might think. Will 20% reduction in car commute take the edge of the rush hour? Or maybe 30%? As soon as we stop the dead traffic jams we will see significant improvements. Will it be possible to get 1 out of 5 to commute by bike/e-bike? I am sure it will - if it is doable without risking your life or your kids life while dropping of to kindergarten or school before work.

And why not tax benefits for parking the car and commute to work by bike/ebike? Surely that would help clear the smog. Well big oil might have a say in that :D

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by gogo » May 23 2016 11:08am

macribs wrote:Battery swapping I do not think will be great. What if you swap a battery in great condition for one that has had a tough life with minimal TLC?
Automated capacity testing by charging the first battery using the next one. Not as efficient, but an effective way to measure capacity.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Dauntless » May 23 2016 12:31pm

Is it in Chicago they say 'Don't step on the third rail?' of the EL? So you tell people on the bikes "Hey, when you get a little wobbly don't fall on the part that will kill you." Get a little too esoteric with the public and it'll get ugly.

We had motorcycle slot cars when I was a kid, but they weren't as good and I never built one. Looks like they still work much the same.

We really need to stick to what readily works were the public at large is concerned, because they'll screw up anything that people on this board put effort into to make work. Just like slot cars when I was a kid.

The first day that Sweden started driving on the wrong side of the street, as most or all of Europe now does.

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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 23 2016 12:43pm

hehe... You folks still tapping about battery swapping? I've travelled thousands of urban miles battery free. By subway car.

Still plugging Plan C. Rig up rails (overhead? to one side? EMBEDDED in road surface? (Sorry. "Trail".) Energized with some lower voltage like 36... And some short(er) flexible wiring connecting ones ebike to a brushed thingee (like a slot car).

Connect up? Climb aboard... and hit that little red button thingee.

In some perfect world, trail surfaces sheltered by overhead canopies ("roofs"). So long, skinny roofs south angles to shed rains and snow off to one side, plus solar panels to feed the system. (Somebuddy already mentioned German "weather" as being "less than perfect".)

So while yer suspending roofing and solar panels/roofing over these trails, my vote? To suspend electric rails overhead as well.

Might EVen go enclosed "Hyperloop"-style re wind resistance. hehe
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 23 2016 12:49pm

hehe... Wobble much?
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 23 2016 12:53pm

Heavy-duty version of a "trail" (road) roofed over. With solar panels.
Image

... though my current fav version for solar isn't panels at all but uses "thin film" (light weight) cells. :wink:
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 23 2016 1:04pm

Dauntless wrote: Get a little too esoteric with the public and it'll get ugly.
Yeah. Like adding batteries and a motor to the pedal bicycle. Silly idea. Probably dangerous. They should be banned!

:twisted:
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by Dauntless » May 24 2016 12:40am

LockH wrote:
Dauntless wrote: Get a little too esoteric with the public and it'll get ugly.
Yeah. Like adding batteries and a motor to the pedal bicycle. Silly idea. Probably dangerous. They should be banned!

:twisted:
Sssssh! Don't encourage them. You already know they're looking for an excuse.
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Re: Extra mile: Germany may create bicycle highways

Post by LockH » May 24 2016 8:29am

OK. So. Plan C? Having constructed a highway/trail/wattEVer, roof it over for longer "bike season" weather protection. A "roof"/canopy/tent thingee. Looooong and skinny... like this but miles long:
Image

Then on southerly sloped sections of this tent/canopy roof, some of those new fangled "thin film" solar cells (already tapped about on ES... somewhere:
Image

Yah can already buy this stuff by the roll.

THEN yah can use these roof/canopy supporting poles to hold an electric rail up in the air. Say maybe ten feet off the ground/trail surface.

STILL gotta figure out how an ebiker might hook up to some sort of brush/shoe/wattEVer that travels along these wires/rails like as done in China, but a Lite/personal version. Like a slot car but on steroids, size-wise.
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