Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by LockH » May 22 2016 9:31pm

... The Biggest Adoption Of Green Transportation In History. Per a Forbes Media site:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard ... 99e5893a73
Cherry discovered that e-bikers were driving the wrong-way on 44% of his study segments, often failing to yield the right-of-way, and a full 56% violating stop signs and traffic signals.
:roll:
“Data shows that e-bike fatalities are really high, and almost reach e-bike growth.”
:shock:
“The issue of e-bikes in China has become incredibly complex, it speaks to China’s congestion, public transit, rich-poor gap, and inefficient government management,” said CC Huang. “But it also offers a choice for a number of cities – do you choose bikes or cars? Sadly, a number of large cities have recently decided to choose cars.”
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by Raged » May 23 2016 5:56am

Not surprising... When the chinese say "ebike" it's not the pedal units we're used to. They're more like scooters which are very heavy and cause a fair bit of damage to a pedestrian in an accident. I highlighted this last year when I was travelling around China in my Cube Cyclocross build thread. I was walking around the hospital zones at night and ebike scooters driving around without lights on the road/footpath/everywhere... It's hectic and dangerous. You sorta get used to it ( like crossing the road in Vietnam the first time).. Walk slow and people move around you, but seriously... they need to make it mandatory to have lights on at night or something. Walking down a dark road and jumping out of the way of an e-scooter running on the footpath without lights gets tiring.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by dogman dan » May 23 2016 6:43am

Bottom line, the problem is people, how they ride, not so much what they ride.

At some point a multi use path becomes a bike or moped, or whatever highway, and then it is unsafe for people on foot.

Time to somehow build three tiers of roadway. one for foot, one for bikes and mopeds, and one for cars. Not easy to do, in an existing city.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by LewTwo » May 23 2016 6:45am

dogman dan wrote:Bottom line, the problem is people, how they ride, not so much what they ride.
At some point a multi use path becomes a bike or moped, or whatever highway, and then it is unsafe for people on foot.
Time to somehow build three tiers of roadway. one for foot, one for bikes and mopeds, and one for cars. Not easy to do, in an existing city.
... and another for mass transit.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by dogman dan » May 23 2016 7:09am

Yeah, ideally that's underground.

Wouldn't it be great if,,, underground was the trains, then another underground system for cars, busses, delivery trucks, that led to underground parking.

Lastly the surface streets would be paradise, small low speed electric vehicles and walking, with the walking having safe crossings. Possible the cars could be on streets, but a pedestrian street would be above that. Obviously you'd need tons of vent holes to let the smog out of the car tunnels.

You wouldn't do entire cities like this, but the core, maybe a 5 mile square or so.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by Ykick » May 23 2016 8:39am

dogman dan wrote:Yeah, ideally that's underground.

Wouldn't it be great if,,, underground was the trains, then another underground system for cars, busses, delivery trucks, that led to underground parking.

Lastly the surface streets would be paradise, small low speed electric vehicles and walking, with the walking having safe crossings. Possible the cars could be on streets, but a pedestrian street would be above that. Obviously you'd need tons of vent holes to let the smog out of the car tunnels.

You wouldn't do entire cities like this, but the core, maybe a 5 mile square or so.
Got me thinking there really weird stuff. In less temperate climates how about putting pedestrians and bicycles underground? Eliminates a lot of weather hassles.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by gogo » May 23 2016 9:08am

Those with money seek government favor. History of mankind repeated.

When the affluent interfere with the peasants' transportation, nothing happens immediately, if ever. If the peasants interfered with the affluents' cars, the response would be immediate and probably violent.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by eva-michael » May 23 2016 9:54am

dogman dan wrote:Bottom line, the problem is people, how they ride, not so much what they ride.

At some point a multi use path becomes a bike or moped, or whatever highway, and then it is unsafe for people on foot.

Time to somehow build three tiers of roadway. one for foot, one for bikes and mopeds, and one for cars. Not easy to do, in an existing city.
Government can get a lot of tax income from large amount of cars in their city. And they are willing to enhance road situation for cars. But do not have much zeal to build road for bike, ebike or moped which do not make much tax income.
China have large population and big cities have heavy traffic jam problem. There are too many cars.......and it's dangerous when bike, ebike or moped are moving on same road with high speed. Especially, the situation is that: there are already too many cars on road.
But these are just only minor reasons.
Some people do not get enough knowledge for safe drive and do not know how to follow the traffic regulations. This is major reason which causes accidents.
But meanwhile government does not want to do much to improve safe drive knowledge of ebiker, and biker. Some of them just think about "BAN". sloth administration of some city governors.
Anyways, there are still many paths which will suit for ebike or electric moped which makes them very popular. Just NEED every guys know safe drive and follow traffic regulations. :!:
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by dogman dan » May 24 2016 6:18am

For sure, at some point a crack down on hooligan riders is the only solution. Very hard to do, they are fast, and can vanish in a crowd of similar looking riders. ban all, and all riders become hooligan riders by default.

It's definitely a problem, where money comes from for building any infrastructure improvements. How do you tax pedestrians?

In many climates, putting the walkway underground does make sense. Or in any case, inside. The mall in other words. I just thought it would be nice if you could somehow ban cars from the surface streets of the biggest cities inner core. Sort of like the elevated train, but for walking and biking. In most places, most of the year,, the climate is not that bad that people would prefer to stay in a tunnel, unless it had a glass roof, could have some occasional trees, etc. Also, build a roof and every homeless dude on earth would set up in there, unless private property such as a mall.

I sure don't have the solutions to the problems of the world, maybe you could just block out cars from a few streets here and there. Cities try that from time to time, but it's usually just a block or two, on one street. Not a grid you could really get around on.

Maybe you could elevate the road on every other street or something weird like that. Buildings would have a car side, and a walk side. Walking could go everywhere, but only half the walks would be in a tunnel.

Maybe you could build two level sidewalk, walking only up there on top. bottom sidewalk is bikes and mopeds, walk if you dare.

In any case, big money to do anything, and very damn hard to build into any existing down town.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by cal3thousand » May 24 2016 5:31pm

dogman dan wrote:
I sure don't have the solutions to the problems of the world, maybe you could just block out cars from a few streets here and there. Cities try that from time to time, but it's usually just a block or two, on one street. Not a grid you could really get around on.
I've thought about this issue and considered this a good solution, but it would require a widespread adoption across a large metropolitan area to work. It has to be more than just a block or two to actually matter. I think that if the city of Los Angeles (as an example as I live here) were to close off a couple major, cross-city roads for only bikes and e-bikes, there would be enough adoption to reduce automobile traffic to the point it was worth it. There has to be a critical mass of adopters and that will only happen with a large scale change.

With e-bikes we could easily make the argument for biking 'out of the way' to get to the 'e-bike highways' and thus traveling safely and more efficiently. I would say 3 major East-West roads and maybe 6 smaller North-South roads would cover most of LA from the ocean to downtown LA.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by dogman dan » May 25 2016 6:43am

I'm not sure you could ever make it work in LA, since so many there think nothing of living 50-100 miles out from their jobs. Maybe not in any USA city, except New York. But it would sure be neat if you did have some kind of bike only roads that made an x, so you could at least bike in from 10 miles out or so. Tough to do, since there will be a car road crossing every block for miles and miles. Almost have to make it an elevated path for the bikes. Then,, how do you get on and off it? bunch of steep as hell ramps? elevators? Nothing is cheap enough to actually do it.

Currently, many cities just have bike paths that cross a huge street every mile or half mile,, which sucks. You take serious chances every crossing, even if a light supposedly stops traffic, that does no good if they are not looking out the window of the car.

What seems to be failing badly, is the idea of sharing bike paths with pedestrians, once the bike traffic reaches a certain density. It works fine to share the path out in the suburbs, where walking is a recreational thing. Not so great to share the bike path in a city center full of delivery bikes in a hurry, etc.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by nutnspecial » May 25 2016 7:12am

I think mankind has a firm enough grasp on things we should be moving toward more self reliance which means many could move out of the dam cities. Maybe that would provide an opportunity to implement some of this mega community stuff mentioned.

My idea is we have plenty of tech knowledge to do alot of eliminating individual reliances on corporate ratrace jobs, food, energy, brand new plastic everything, etc. http://www.livescience.com/18997-popula ... aphic.html
With about 1/2 US pop directly 'coastal' and nearly another 40% only slightly inland, you can imagine how much different the country would look if we weren't so dependant on stuff that isn't really benefitting us anyway. Oh well.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by heavymetalthunder » May 25 2016 2:13pm

dogman dan wrote:Maybe not in any USA city, except New York.
It was a bit funny you should mention NYC. The e-bike ban there was lead by politicians that were getting money from the cab companies. You are right about not what people ride as how they ride. In my travels in China the real reason there are more e-bike accidents are because more people in the cities have abandoned the use of gas powered mopeds. And ebikes are cheap in China. For short range, ease of riding, no gas smell, and smog reduction, ebikes fit the bill. When I travel outside the big cities, gas power rule.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by liveforphysics » May 25 2016 7:04pm

In China, not seeing any decreases in the amount of Ebikes.

Scary amount of cars and SUVs and big diesel vehicles added to the mix though. It was much more pleasant to navigate and breathe when just Ebikes.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by 1JohnFoster » May 25 2016 7:51pm

eva-michael wrote:Some people do not get enough knowledge for safe drive and do not know how to follow the traffic regulations. This is major reason which causes accidents.
But meanwhile government does not want to do much to improve safe drive knowledge of ebiker, and biker. Some of them just think about "BAN". sloth administration of some city governors.
Anyways, there are still many paths which will suit for ebike or electric moped which makes them very popular. Just NEED every guys know safe drive and follow traffic regulations. :!:
Are there any safe riding programs in China like there are for bicycles in North America?
Any ebike/scooter organizations capable of political action?

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by liveforphysics » May 25 2016 8:46pm

The Ebikes aren't the safety problem, no matter how they ride. They don't have the kinetic energy to cause meaningful harm.

The cars and trucks murder them randomly as they spray poisons causing cancers and genetic mutations for future generations.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by nutnspecial » May 25 2016 8:58pm

Very dramatic, but can't argue with that Luke, science backs the statement up.
Are there any safe riding programs in China like there are for bicycles in North America?
Any ebike/scooter organizations capable of political action?
I think China is much like US many many years ago in many ways. Some are good and some probably not so much. The east is very intriquing and we can all learn from each other, whether a neighbor or brother or country or culture.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by Dauntless » May 26 2016 1:22am

Cherry discovered that e-bikers were driving the wrong-way on 44% of his study segments, often failing to yield the right-of-way, and a full 56% violating stop signs and traffic signals.
They sound better behaved that the regular bicyclists around me.
“Data shows that e-bike fatalities are really high, and almost reach e-bike growth.”
I'm surprised it's not worse here. But if it ALMOST reaches "e-bike growth," that sounds like they're improving.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by Chalo » May 26 2016 3:13am

dogman dan wrote:Obviously you'd need tons of vent holes to let the smog out of the car tunnels.
Nah, let the motorists cope with their own externalities for once, and the real problem will end almost overnight.

I've been saying for years that if a vehicle makes any exhaust, it should have to flow over the driver before being emitted.
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by eva-michael » May 26 2016 3:48am

1JohnFoster wrote:
eva-michael wrote:Some people do not get enough knowledge for safe drive and do not know how to follow the traffic regulations. This is major reason which causes accidents.
But meanwhile government does not want to do much to improve safe drive knowledge of ebiker, and biker. Some of them just think about "BAN". sloth administration of some city governors.
Anyways, there are still many paths which will suit for ebike or electric moped which makes them very popular. Just NEED every guys know safe drive and follow traffic regulations. :!:
Are there any safe riding programs in China like there are for bicycles in North America?
Any ebike/scooter organizations capable of political action?
Only guidline
No more than 40KG and no more than 20KM/h. ---non-motorized vehicle
more than 40KG or more than 20KM/h. ---automotive vehicle

But the key point is not about auto or not. But lack of management. If ebike give them too much pressure for city management, they just tend to BAND. Of course, we will have arguement online and TV.

Second question: ....no.....
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by dogman dan » May 26 2016 6:02am

If e bike fatalities are getting so bad there,,, are these ebike riders doing the motorcycle thing ( high speed suicides)? are they getting hit by trucks? are they hitting and killing pedestrians?

I just see a trend with the news stories that cross my desk every day. Here in north America, its almost always car hit e biker, or drunk e biker did something really dumb.

None of this has shit to do with e-bike. It's just the same old deal, cars trying to kill bike rider, motorcycle rider, or pedestrian. Or the just as common reverse, bike or walk, stupid suicides.

Very very rare, bike rider kills himself without the help of any car or truck. It does happen, a friend of mine did it. But he just happened to be out riding when he stroked out.

Regarding the high percentage that drives the wrong way, ignores lights, stop signs, etc. I had the idea that in most of the world, that's how they drive anything, from a bicycle to an 18 wheel truck. It's how it is,, not how just e bikes ride. Riding a bike or motorcycle in that kind of traffic takes a brave person.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by Ykick » May 26 2016 6:57am

I saw this on a billboard the other day visiting St Joseph, MO:
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Got me thinking about this thread....
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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by smashapotamus » May 26 2016 11:40am

If you've ever been to China, this isn't really difficult to imagine. There are many transportation challenges in the major cities such as Beijing and Shanghai due to the congestion of the populations in these cities. More and more people are moving away from rural China in to these urban areas. Since so many people live and work in urban areas, alternate transportation options there far outnumber what we see in the states. We hear about their pollution issues from the number of cars on the roads and a lot of media attention is given to their advanced public transportation systems, but what you rarely ever hear about until you visit there is the sheer volume of people who commute around every single day on bicycles, scooters, rickshaws, or any of many other types of self propelled mechanical vehicle capable of carrying a human.

Here in the United States we have empty bicycle lanes running down roads that probably see 100+ cars pass by for every 1 bicycle. In urban China, it is not uncommon for the number of bicycles traveling down the "bicycle path" alongside the road to be equal or greater in number to cars on the road. In the states many downtown skyscraper office buildings don't have designated areas to lock up a bicycle as they see little use. In Beijing, it is not uncommon to pull up to a high rise building and see 50-100 bicycles chained up in designated parking areas. When there are THAT many bicycles traveling down a path at low speed, introducing an e-bike to the mix which is capable of moving significantly faster than most bicyclists at cruising speed could easily create a very dangerous situation. I can see where many of these e-bikers may then choose to ride in areas designated more for cars than bikes.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by 1JohnFoster » May 26 2016 8:16pm

liveforphysics wrote:The Ebikes aren't the safety problem, no matter how they ride. They don't have the kinetic energy to cause meaningful harm.
My Dad got knocked down by an escooter in a parking lot. Took him a loong time to recover. Could easily have been worse. Oldsters to get killed every once in a while just by pedal bikes, even in NA.
Cars even in our relatively well behaved (relative to California) region kill as many people outside cars as they do other car riders. I saw the insane risks drivers took with ped lives in the newly sort-of-de-Comunized Eastern Europe in the 90's. I don't want to imagine cars today in China.

But as eva-michael keeps pointing out, the problem isn't anyone's driving behaviour, it's that lawmakers are paid by taxes, which cars pay and bikes don't. Really the same in NA as China.

I'm hoping for regulations to force computer-driven vehicles of all types. Except off-road.

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Re: Why Chinese Cities Are Banning

Post by eva-michael » Jun 25 2016 8:56am

A high speed bicycle knocked and killed a female runner when she cross motor way at yesterday night. Note: just a MTB.
Ebike and bike are not guilty but sometimes people.................
To protect yourself and others, take care, follow traffic rules and no traffic violation.
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