Help in picking out parts for my first bike

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Jontepd   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: May 28 2016 8:44am
Location: Sweden

Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by Jontepd » May 29 2016 8:48am

Hello!

I have been lurking around this forum for a few days but this is my first post so I hope it is in the correct section. I am looking to convert my regular bike which i bought last year to an electric one, this will be my first build and I am not very handy to be honest so I would prefer a kit that is easy to assemble. If i understand things correctly a front wheel motor is the easiest to do, it seems pretty "plug and play" to me and I like that :)

Some background & information:
I have about 8 kilometers to work and I use my car for that every day which is a shame. I could ride my bike that distance without any difficulties on a warm summer day but for me to be able to do it every day of the year I need some extra push so that's why I want to convert it into an electric bike.

Requirements:
I don't need it to do any insane speeds but obviously the faster the better. I understand that a front wheel motor is not ideal for this but I would still prefer the easy to assemble part and then I will build a more powerful bike later on if it works well enough for me to be able to sell the car :)

I will probably help to pedal almost every day but I still want it to be able to work without me pedaling at all for those days when I am very tired after a long day at work.
I would prefer if it did not cost much more than about $700 (usd) or £500 (gbp)


These are the stuff I have been looking at (although I know almost nothing about this stuff so if I have been looking at crappy stuff or if there is something else that you would recommend - please do so)

http://dillengerelectricbikes.co.uk/ele ... enger.html
or: http://www.hallomotor.com/2014-new-36v- ... ables.html
and : http://www.hallomotor.com/2015-36v-11ah ... arger.html


This is my bike:

Image

Let me know if I have missed something and thank you in advance!

windtrader   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 324
Joined: Mar 08 2014 9:57pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by windtrader » May 29 2016 3:21pm

Welcome.
There are many ways to do a ebike. Your bike is quite nice and light so I would suggest you go with a lower power unit. The easiest is to add a rear hub motor. There are kits available that provide the needed parts. You can also purchase a prebuilt battery in a nice container. It would take a day and you'd be in business.

A mid drive is another option but cost more and more involved to connect. Since you mention you can peddle the distance it is likely fairly flat and maybe a bit of rolling but not really steep hills. If you have very steep hills then a small mid drive will allow you to use low gears.

There is a ton of information here, all that you will ever need. Do read up then ask some questions. good luck

Jontepd   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: May 28 2016 8:44am
Location: Sweden

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by Jontepd » May 30 2016 2:11am

windtrader wrote:Welcome.
There are many ways to do a ebike. Your bike is quite nice and light so I would suggest you go with a lower power unit. The easiest is to add a rear hub motor. There are kits available that provide the needed parts. You can also purchase a prebuilt battery in a nice container. It would take a day and you'd be in business.

A mid drive is another option but cost more and more involved to connect. Since you mention you can peddle the distance it is likely fairly flat and maybe a bit of rolling but not really steep hills. If you have very steep hills then a small mid drive will allow you to use low gears.

There is a ton of information here, all that you will ever need. Do read up then ask some questions. good luck
Thank you for your reply!

Is it not easier to add a front hub motor rather than a rear hub one?

What do you think of the suggestions I posted? I am most interested in the one from hallomotor since it is a bit cheaper but I am open to suggestions :)

User avatar
wesnewell   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7170
Joined: Jan 31 2011 6:25pm
Location: Wylie, TX, USA

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by wesnewell » May 30 2016 10:25am

For such a short distance it really won't matter which one you get. I don't know what you consider fast, but I'd want one that would do 45kph minimum.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

Jontepd   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: May 28 2016 8:44am
Location: Sweden

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by Jontepd » May 30 2016 11:21am

wesnewell wrote:For such a short distance it really won't matter which one you get. I don't know what you consider fast, but I'd want one that would do 45kph minimum.
Hi!

I think about 30-40 kph top speed would be fine for me. But even if the motor is strong enough I suppose there are quality differences and that is also a reason why I am asking for advice on what kit to buy.

Also, I noticed that on hallomotors website there is a section for "water-proof kits". Does that mean I am screwed if it rains with a kit that is not "water-proof"? I have tried emailing them but no response yet..

User avatar
wesnewell   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7170
Joined: Jan 31 2011 6:25pm
Location: Wylie, TX, USA

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by wesnewell » May 30 2016 12:59pm

A DD motor would be best imo. No gears or clutches to break, plus you can get regen braking with them which will save a lot on brake pads, especially from higher speed braking. Most 48V 500W DD kits will do 40kph and will be cheaper than a geared setup. And it will last longer since there's nothing in the motor to break. I've got about 30,000 km om my 1000W DD motor in a little over 5 years. BTW, there's not much, if any, difference in cost between a 500W and 1000W DD motor kit if you aren't worried about legality where you live. And that might be 250W anyway there.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

windtrader   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 324
Joined: Mar 08 2014 9:57pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by windtrader » May 30 2016 2:32pm

Since you are in Sweden, you should check the legal requirements if you care about that stuff. I think most Euro countries have 250w PAS only systems. That will narrow your selection quite a bit.

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » May 31 2016 3:01am

You dont talk fof terrain? v relevant.

Your hardest, heaviest and most expensive choice will be battery. Too long a story for here,but personally, lifepo4 is a no brainer.

8km is a snack. even a 5ah 36v would do.

yes, assume there will be times when you not only dont wanna pedal, but that you cant pedal, even on hills e.g u r carrying an awkward load - it happens. even a broken transmission neednt stop u with a hub drive.

I like the simplicity of a front hub also. I cant see much if any torque effect from a hubdrive & way simple to swap to another bike.

If you go the hub route, seriously consider the "xinghua" or whatever dual speed hub. 2 gears is not bad given electrics torque. an impressive unit i hear.

less traction than rear traction is hardly an issue on a bike.

regen is useless except as a brake (which only bad riders need much), forget it.

sounds you are eu rules in sweden, which usually makes stealth an issue - dont look or act as if you have more than legal power.

250w would do probably only if a geared middle drive motor. In fact, the only vaguely legal general use bike for eu rules is mid drive. Hubs would do for flat river plains, but u need pedals too for any decent grades. Still, spoil u self, get 350w & cheat a bit, they need never know. They are the same motor usually, and the same looking controller.

having decided, NB , u must have a battery that can provide say, 350 watts. a normal 10ah 36v li-ion battery, can only just provide that, and only for a few minutes while full, then weakening, and the last 20% of charge is useless.

a 10ah 36v lifepo4 pouch cell battery can provide a steady 350(/360) watts for an hour, until fully empty. It can also provide 700 watts for a half hour if u choose.

a handy guide measure i saw, is it takes 100 watts for a roadbike to maintain 25kph on the flat. each extra 5 kph adds 100 watts to power usage.

so 25-30kph seems a sweet spot windwise, irrespective of bikes wind resistance.

assuming 25kph & flat, your commute should be ~20mins at lets generously say 200w per hour of the 10ah batteries 350watt hour, ie, ~70watts of the 350watt storage total - 20%.

so you could go smaller, but not with li-io (limn to be more precise - 18650 cells normally). As above, it can only provide a measly 175 watts if u r lucky. a 5 ah lifepo4 tho, can provide at double rate for half the time - its 175watt total can be delivered at a rate of 350/360 watts for half an hour. if u have used 70watts as a bove, you u are still more than half charged. You will save some money and about 1kg in weight.

the numbers matter less than the logic. think in trems of how much time using the equivalent of maximum power on my motor, do i think i need for my purposes. Too hi & u waste money and weight, too low & u have to pedal some, but a lighter bike.

they relate also to the guy suggesting a 500w+ hub motor. I can imagine overpowering so u dont need gears is a nice feeling, but its bound to be inefficient (all motors have preferred rpm bands), u need a heavier/dearer battery, the motors are very heavy (airfreight cost?)

My personal repair kit is the backseat of a cab. So For me, an easy qik release front wheel is a bonus. Not sure how hub front motors alter this.

HOWEVER

Dude, if u sat down and really figured what that car is costing u, in all sorts of sly ways - we just get used to forking out - u can afford to act like a millionaire - even an ~expensive factory one is a cost effective bargain. if u know its a no brainer, and i think you do, just place value on your time and buy the best tool for you.

i started a thread on a $1500US bike thats perfect for eu rules & I own and love & got mostly hate mail :( for my trouble :)

its called the worlds best ebike nobody ever heard of, or similar - recent

User avatar
Racer_X   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 429
Joined: Oct 01 2009 5:48am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by Racer_X » May 31 2016 9:55am

windtrader wrote:Since you are in Sweden, you should check the legal requirements if you care about that stuff. I think most Euro countries have 250w PAS only systems. That will narrow your selection quite a bit.
I have passed many cops in my 7 years of ebiking in stockholm and so far have not had any trouble. The thing to remember is to pedal when your commuting because you are supposed to have PAS (Pedal assist system). And try to not go faster than the fastest cyclist, and these guys are in killer shape. I frequently run into Spandex racers who reach in the low 40's km/h.

For your bike I would recommend a cute 100 geared motor 260rpm in 36v and run it @ 48v with 48v 20amp controller. The motor weighs 3 kilos and it is very nice and smooth ride. Top speed is 35-40km/t and it is very stealthy, almost looks like you have no motor on it.

Image
Cannondale F8 MTB, 9c 9x7, Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with torque plates. 12s3p or 18s2p depending on mood.Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.
Backup bike Schwinn Heavy Duti Beach Cruiser, 9c 9x7 front Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with clamping dropouts, Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1088
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by LewTwo » May 31 2016 10:26am

For simplicity, light weight, economy and low maintenance it is hard to beat a 250-350 watt front hub with a small 18650 battery pack ... especially if your commute is only 8Km over relatively level terrain.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9934
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by 999zip999 » May 31 2016 5:58pm

Get a quality battery made with good named cells. If they wouldn't tell you they have junk. What's the heart of an electric bike the battery. So.
I like 48 volts.

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » May 31 2016 10:17pm

LewTwo wrote:For simplicity, light weight, economy and low maintenance it is hard to beat a 250-350 watt front hub with a small 18650 battery pack ... especially if your commute is only 8Km over relatively level terrain.
I disagree. Even my 12ah panasonic bottle battery is crap on my 350w- it gets weak within minutes of full use. You would be better with a 5ah lifepo4 than 10ah of 18650s. better longevity also in a number of ways.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12172
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by markz » May 31 2016 10:37pm

cycleops612 wrote:
LewTwo wrote:For simplicity, light weight, economy and low maintenance it is hard to beat a 250-350 watt front hub with a small 18650 battery pack ... especially if your commute is only 8Km over relatively level terrain.
I disagree. Even my 12ah panasonic bottle battery is crap on my 350w- it gets weak within minutes of full use. You would be better with a 5ah lifepo4 than 10ah of 18650s. better longevity also in a number of ways.
Depends on the discharge rates of the 18650 form factor battery. Some are 5A, others are 20A.
I bought some used A123 LiFePO4 that came off a bus, I should have bought new 18650 from nkon.
There are a lot of statements like that: "I should have bought"

DAND214   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3291
Joined: Aug 10 2008 8:28pm
Location: About 1200 miles south of Chicago, in sunny/rainny Port Richey, Florida!

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by DAND214 » May 31 2016 11:14pm

It's now LiFePo4 was the hot setup. Unless you get top grade LiFePo4 they are mostly junk. They don't stay balanced half there life. I have too many laying around and don't know what to do with them.

Front hubs are easier to install but are more dangerous if not done properly. Never a alloy front fork for a strong hub motor. A small Q-100 is fine if done right.

In most kits you get the parts and no instructions. If there are any they are very vague.

48v is most common and 10ah is the least I would consider. Bottle mounts are pretty good now and easy to install.
You listed a complete kit with battery. That should be the easiest to install providing the wiring is all plug and play. If you get a kit from one and battery from other you need to make changes to match connectors in most cases.

Any kit you get will be a challenge at first but you have friends here to help.

Dan

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1088
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by LewTwo » May 31 2016 11:34pm

cycleops612 wrote:I disagree.
You are free to do that ... but so am I.
cycleops612 wrote:Even my 12ah panasonic bottle battery is crap on my 350w- it gets weak within minutes of full use.
Sorry for your bad experience. However there are many people have not been so unfortunate.
cycleops612 wrote:You would be better with a 5ah lifepo4 than 10ah of 18650s. better longevity also in a number of ways.
My 10S2P 18650 (36V x 6400 mAh) has not given me any problems. It does not appear to have the drastic power sag that you refer to. To be fair my pack is only about six months old and I have never run it completely flat.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » Jun 01 2016 3:30am

LewTwo wrote:
cycleops612 wrote:I disagree.
You are free to do that ... but so am I.
cycleops612 wrote:Even my 12ah panasonic bottle battery is crap on my 350w- it gets weak within minutes of full use.
Sorry for your bad experience. However there are many people have not been so unfortunate.
cycleops612 wrote:You would be better with a 5ah lifepo4 than 10ah of 18650s. better longevity also in a number of ways.
My 10S2P 18650 (36V x 6400 mAh) has not given me any problems. It does not appear to have the drastic power sag that you refer to. To be fair my pack is only about six months old and I have never run it completely flat.
Whatever your specifics, its inarguable that a battery that produces 1 c (360watts in "theory") (ie most 18650 bottle e.g. rigs ) at best,and rapidly then loses voltage, will not produce 350 watts for long. If u mean esoteric/expensive 2c or more 18650s, then say so. Dont mislead folks. lifepo4 does 3c in native form, tho most paks conservatively come in 2c form - tho that may mean even old ones stay at 2c?

I have seen 10c and 30c pouch cells for that matter.

The usual 18650 pak that comes with a kit is garbage (there is a buck in selling, no arguments conventional wisdom, not in educating people & having them go away and think about it) as u should well know. u r not doing noobs any favours by dissuading them from at least considering these entirely different components separately. Yes, you may have to get the 2 connectors to the controller modded, but thats all. the charger comes with the battery NB.

Folks, u may be getting a brand name motor, but the dubious dealer is providing the battery. Thats where he makes hi profit - selling an identical looking 10ah pack which may well be lucky to be an 8ah pak (not the case with my, discussed here, pak).

a rumor i heard is with age, its not capacity which drops w/ lifepo4, its c rates.

I am sorry for your bad experience with lifepo4. I would take their inevitable downsides over 18650s any day.

I guess the moral is, over spec your battery by ~20% (which has fast charge benefits too) and cop the weight penalty, then u should be happy 4 many years with it.

I am genuinely curious about this balancing issue u refer to tho. Can u or anyone elaborate please?

I was under the impression chargers balanced with each full charge, under instructions from the bms circuit card in the cell pak?

If u r saying they have been known to fail, well doh, as do 18650s, and i would sure rather find the bad pouch cell than the dud in a rats nest of piddly 18650 cells.

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » Jun 01 2016 4:18am

LewTwo wrote:
cycleops612 wrote:I disagree.
You are free to do that ... but so am I.
cycleops612 wrote:Even my 12ah panasonic bottle battery is crap on my 350w- it gets weak within minutes of full use.
Sorry for your bad experience. However there are many people have not been so unfortunate.
cycleops612 wrote:You would be better with a 5ah lifepo4 than 10ah of 18650s. better longevity also in a number of ways.
My 10S2P 18650 (36V x 6400 mAh) has not given me any problems. It does not appear to have the drastic power sag that you refer to. To be fair my pack is only about six months old and I have never run it completely flat.
Seriously folks, this guy is spreading complete disinformation.

http://www.best18650battery.com/

lists the very best reputed 18650 makers, and as of 2016, i dont recall seein any above 3500 mah listed, even these mobs make them mostly below 2500 mah, and the most common ones globally in other ~brands, probably well below 2000 mah and commonly overstated by 100%~.

yet this guy is using 6400mah hour cells (unstated c rates (presumably similarly atypically high) or even what power he is drawing, tho i presume 350w) as typical, for the purposes of educating u. Yeah right.

Using say, 2100mah cells, means triple the number of cells he is using. A fraught can of worms. Pouches mean no parallel groupings (i still dont get how or if BMSs balance cells within these groups - my guess is they dont (- clarification anyone?) - big lifepo4 cells however, each have their own dedicated BMS link (I like that, has to be a good look). Just cells in series of the appropriate size (12 x 3.3v~ 20 ah cells = ~36v e.g.).

Shame sir.

User avatar
wesnewell   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7170
Joined: Jan 31 2011 6:25pm
Location: Wylie, TX, USA

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by wesnewell » Jun 01 2016 4:40am

I see no place he claims to be using 6400mah cells. In fact he claims to be using 3200mah cells in a 2p config. Doesn't really matter to me me since I use only rc lipo, but I do like to keep things real.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » Jun 01 2016 5:30am

wesnewell wrote:I see no place he claims to be using 6400mah cells. In fact he claims to be using 3200mah cells in a 2p config. Doesn't really matter to me me since I use only rc lipo, but I do like to keep things real.
in my absence from here,idid wonder about that, but given his usage -"My 10S2P 18650 (36V x 6400 mAh)", i think i could be forgiven, but 3200 is still very high end specs, far from typical in a kit - the subject at hand.

Otherwise, i stand by my remarks for now. his advice is deceptive to noobs. It gets me cranky.

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1088
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by LewTwo » Jun 01 2016 5:43am

The actual cells in my pack are Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA.
They are rated by Sanyo at 3300 mAh but SUPOWER that built the pack rated them a bit more conservatively at 3200 mAh.
... 10S = ten serial = 10 x 3.6 volts = 36 volts nominal
... 2p = two parallel = 2 x 3200 mAh = 6400 mAh
One can read the results of an independent test these cells at this URL:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries20 ... %20UK.html
but here is a screenshot of the top of the report with the specifications...
Sanyo NCR18650GA.png
Sanyo NCR18650GA.png (192.74 KiB) Viewed 2893 times
This is the actual specifications from Panasonic:
ncr18650ga.pdf
(316.07 KiB) Downloaded 42 times
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1088
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by LewTwo » Jun 01 2016 12:29pm

cycleops612 wrote:Whatever your specifics, its inarguable that a battery that produces 1 c (360watts in "theory") (ie most 18650 bottle e.g. rigs ) at best,and rapidly then loses voltage, will not produce 350 watts for long. If u mean esoteric/expensive 2c or more 18650s, then say so. Dont mislead folks. lifepo4 does 3c in native form, tho most paks conservatively come in 2c form - tho that may mean even old ones stay at 2c?

I have seen 10c and 30c pouch cells for that matter.
A 1C rate means that the discharge current will discharge the entire battery in 1 hour. http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_ ... ations.pdf
Personally I do not care what the 'C Rate' is. I am more interested in what the Maximum Continuous Discharge rate in Amperes is. I see little advantage to being able to discharge a battery in less than 2 minutes.
cycleops612 wrote:The usual 18650 pak that comes with a kit is garbage (there is a buck in selling, no arguments conventional wisdom, not in educating people & having them go away and think about it) as u should well know. u r not doing noobs any favours by dissuading them from at least considering these entirely different components separately. Yes, you may have to get the 2 connectors to the controller modded, but thats all. the charger comes with the battery NB.

Folks, u may be getting a brand name motor, but the dubious dealer is providing the battery. Thats where he makes hi profit - selling an identical looking 10ah pack which may well be lucky to be an 8ah pak (not the case with my, discussed here, pak).
Perhaps you should consider doing business with a more reputable dealer(s).
cycleops612 wrote:If u r saying they have been known to fail, well doh, as do 18650s, and i would sure rather find the bad pouch cell than the dud in a rats nest of piddly 18650 cells.
I said no such thing and you well know it. Do not credit your fears to my statements.
cycleops612 wrote: http://www.best18650battery.com/
lists the very best reputed 18650 makers, and as of 2016, i dont recall seein any above 3500 mah listed, even these mobs make them mostly below 2500 mah, and the most common ones globally in other ~brands, probably well below 2000 mah and commonly overstated by 100%~.

yet this guy is using 6400mah hour cells (unstated c rates (presumably similarly atypically high) or even what power he is drawing, tho i presume 350w) as typical, for the purposes of educating u. Yeah right.
You should check your own reference before you post it. There is one entry listed at 3600 mAhr. I said the battery pack was 6400 mAh not the cells. As it is a 2P pack that is 3200 mAh per string. There are eight entries listed at 3200 mAh or greater.


There should be enough latitude in this forum for an honest difference of opinion with an acceptable margin civility, respect and politeness. I do prefer 18650 cells over RC pouch batteries but I am not alone in that regard. Look at any high performance EV and you will likely find 18650 cells or Prismatic cells (little more than plastic enclosed pouch cells). I have made no disparaging remarks against the RC pouch battery technology or the people who prefer it. You have on the other hand sunk to level of calling me liar and backed up that claim with false statements, misquotes and insults. At the same time you have demonstrated an inability to perform simple math, a lack of typing skills and extraordinarily poor english syntax. Your blind passion for RC pouch cells is duly noted however that does not make you the supreme authority.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » Jun 02 2016 6:46am

LewTwo wrote:
cycleops612 wrote:Whatever your specifics, its inarguable that a battery that produces 1 c (360watts in "theory") (ie most 18650 bottle e.g. rigs ) at best,and rapidly then loses voltage, will not produce 350 watts for long. If u mean esoteric/expensive 2c or more 18650s, then say so. Dont mislead folks. lifepo4 does 3c in native form, tho most paks conservatively come in 2c form - tho that may mean even old ones stay at 2c?

I have seen 10c and 30c pouch cells for that matter.
A 1C rate means that the discharge current will discharge the entire battery in 1 hour. http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_ ... ations.pdf
Personally I do not care what the 'C Rate' is. I am more interested in what the Maximum Continuous Discharge rate in Amperes is. I see little advantage to being able to discharge a battery in less than 2 minutes.
cycleops612 wrote:The usual 18650 pak that comes with a kit is garbage (there is a buck in selling, no arguments conventional wisdom, not in educating people & having them go away and think about it) as u should well know. u r not doing noobs any favours by dissuading them from at least considering these entirely different components separately. Yes, you may have to get the 2 connectors to the controller modded, but thats all. the charger comes with the battery NB.

Folks, u may be getting a brand name motor, but the dubious dealer is providing the battery. Thats where he makes hi profit - selling an identical looking 10ah pack which may well be lucky to be an 8ah pak (not the case with my, discussed here, pak).
Perhaps you should consider doing business with a more reputable dealer(s).
cycleops612 wrote:If u r saying they have been known to fail, well doh, as do 18650s, and i would sure rather find the bad pouch cell than the dud in a rats nest of piddly 18650 cells.
I said no such thing and you well know it. Do not credit your fears to my statements.
cycleops612 wrote: http://www.best18650battery.com/
lists the very best reputed 18650 makers, and as of 2016, i dont recall seein any above 3500 mah listed, even these mobs make them mostly below 2500 mah, and the most common ones globally in other ~brands, probably well below 2000 mah and commonly overstated by 100%~.

yet this guy is using 6400mah hour cells (unstated c rates (presumably similarly atypically high) or even what power he is drawing, tho i presume 350w) as typical, for the purposes of educating u. Yeah right.
You should check your own reference before you post it. There is one entry listed at 3600 mAhr. I said the battery pack was 6400 mAh not the cells. As it is a 2P pack that is 3200 mAh per string. There are eight entries listed at 3200 mAh or greater.


There should be enough latitude in this forum for an honest difference of opinion with an acceptable margin civility, respect and politeness. I do prefer 18650 cells over RC pouch batteries but I am not alone in that regard. Look at any high performance EV and you will likely find 18650 cells or Prismatic cells (little more than plastic enclosed pouch cells). I have made no disparaging remarks against the RC pouch battery technology or the people who prefer it. You have on the other hand sunk to level of calling me liar and backed up that claim with false statements, misquotes and insults. At the same time you have demonstrated an inability to perform simple math, a lack of typing skills and extraordinarily poor english syntax. Your blind passion for RC pouch cells is duly noted however that does not make you the supreme authority.
I was over the top. I regret it, am chastened & apologise.

quite agree. 2-3c is fine for my ebike needs, given range issues. but u dont address my point at all. a 350w 1c (and dropping) battery driving a 350 watt motor, is doomed at the outset. Its not even a proper battery or vehicle. It just gets weaker and weaker as the trip progresses. Even tessla is notorious for it.

Yet thats exactly what most folk buy/are sold. Even good/expensive 1c batteries are doomed. even 3c 18650s like yours, still suffer severe voltage drop, unlike "~steady power til empty" lifepo4.

300 cycles is miserable compared to 2000 (6 years of daily full charge) or so from lifepo4, and far more at risk of damage. Thats a serious expense, lurking in the wings.

User avatar
wesnewell   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7170
Joined: Jan 31 2011 6:25pm
Location: Wylie, TX, USA

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by wesnewell » Jun 02 2016 7:34am

You need to look at some voltage curves for the different battery types under load. Lifepo4 works great at a 1C or less load and so does most 18650 cells of any chemistry, but put either of them under a 3C or more load and they both sag like crazy. There's curve charts all over the net to confirm this. With limited space of ebikes, neither is a good choice imo. This is exactly what rc lipo was designed for, To be small light and very powerful with minimum sag under heavy loads. That's why it's all I use. Well, that and it's a lot cheaper, can put a pack together or reconfigure it in minutes without having to weld a hundred batteries together. And under the same loads, they all last about the same.
https://www.google.com/search?q=battery ... 03&dpr=0.9
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

cycleops612   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 585
Joined: May 31 2015 3:45pm
Location: Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex battery, 24 speed axial mid-drive Bofeili MTB.

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by cycleops612 » Jun 02 2016 11:58am

wesnewell wrote:You need to look at some voltage curves for the different battery types under load. Lifepo4 works great at a 1C or less load and so does most 18650 cells of any chemistry, but put either of them under a 3C or more load and they both sag like crazy. There's curve charts all over the net to confirm this. With limited space of ebikes, neither is a good choice imo. This is exactly what rc lipo was designed for, To be small light and very powerful with minimum sag under heavy loads. That's why it's all I use. Well, that and it's a lot cheaper, can put a pack together or reconfigure it in minutes without having to weld a hundred batteries together. And under the same loads, they all last about the same.
https://www.google.com/search?q=battery ... 03&dpr=0.9
I hear you on both counts. Respect re lipo, but no comment, not for me, fussy storage for one, but i remain open.

The other, well yeah but...

A sensible user fits a battery to his needs, which are say; 70% sub 1c output, 20% zippy at 1.5c and 10% OMG, get me out of here, hang the expense/impress your mates reserve, at 3c. A 1c rated bog standard lifepo4 pouch cell can do all that and last ~forever & yield good average capacity yield.

Very, very few 18650s can even do 1c properly - you need a 14ah 18650 rig to do the same job at a 10ah lifepo4 arguably, and even those elite cells at say 3300 mah 3c, would require about 7-8 cells to replace a 30ah lifepo4 cell i think. The lowest 20% of charge is unusable for starters methinks?. Yet included in rating? I dont get it.

Its not like there is a meaningful cost with treating lifepo4 roughly. Even a thousand cycles is forever. Not so sure with 18650 at all.

Charts? Sure. Glad u mentioned it.

A typical lifepo4 discharge chart (an indicative rig i saw shuts output at the equivalent of 2.75v per cell btw)

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl ... mrc&uact=8


as you can see (sadly in this chart it jumps from 1c to an unrealistic 5c), at 1c you get a very honest and consistent effort - a little initial sag, then pretty much a flat 3.2v of the rated `3.3v run, til `80-100% empty, depending on c-rates output.

a representative 18650 discharge chart, others may provide better links:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct= ... 4525712344

Just look at it. what a mess vs lifepo4. An alleged 4.2v 18650 cell is nothing like it. Look on the column for just .1 ah of the total alleged 2.4ah capacity expended, 1/24 th or ~4%. Already we have lost a huge chunk of voltage. At a mere 1c discharge, its already down to 3.8v(10%), and at 1.5c discharge rate, to 3.6v.

So at 1c, your fully charged 38v battery is down to ~34v after a few minutes use it seems.

At just .15 ah used, at 1.5c discharge and above, voltage has fallen off a cliff. It is nothing like the claimed battery or the one u started with, 5 or so percent of capacity ago, and voltage is still declining, slower but still ~steeply.

What on earth is the point of a petrol tank which doles out less and less petrol during the trip, when there is an alternative? Surely a consistently powered vehicle is much preferred?

Capacity will be unused because the low voltage is useless to an ebike.

Its real. tesla owners know it, so do ebikers surely. Why do all deny it?

I dont seem to be persuading anyone, or reducing my "emperors clothes" feelings about 18650s. They seem very dishonestly specified to me. Its not apples with apples at all. Consequently i am also skeptical of the, "heavier/dearer", oft cited downsides of lifepo4.

They have their uses, but not EVs. Wrong usage patterns.

Its all gilding the lilley for me. I just want a thing that powers my bike, no a fragile prima donna i may well have to replace or get sick of.

that alone sells me on lifepo4. Its an honest, long serving tool I can just forget~ about, not agonised over, just assumed, like a cars gas tank.

NB, these charts have no bearing on reality, in that, `nobody steadily discharges, in the burbs & glens and dales anyhoo. Usage constantly varies between c rates.

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1088
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help in picking out parts for my first bike

Post by LewTwo » Jun 03 2016 1:05am

Apples and Oranges .... all 18650 cells/packs are not the same and I assume all RC LiPo packs/cells are not the same as well. One of the things that I find really irritating is when a vendor brags about the virtues of their particular cell/battery but neglects to reveal the cell chemistry. I had a difficult time tracking down the chemistry for the 18650 cells in my battery pack: LiNiCoAlO2 = Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide. Of course there are enough chemistries out there to make that even more confusing. I always seem to wind up back at the same URL to jog my senile memory: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... ithium_ion

In my case the reason I prefer the 18650 battery back is because it is reliable, reasonable lightweight*** and requires little or no maintenance. I did not have to test each cell (SUPOWER did that). I did not have to weld the cells together (SUPOWER did that). The BMS takes care of balancing the cells ... I do not know or care how as long as it does it. I do not know or care what the "C" rate is. My controller is supposed to be limited to 15 Amps and the battery pack is capable of 20 Amps continuous discharge. I do not have to worry about a change in dimension (I am told that RC packs may swell over time).

Other than shoe leather (well shoe rubber these days) my bicycle is my only form of transportation. The one trip I must make at least twice a week is to the grocery store (round trip is about 5 miles ~ 8 Km). When I get back with a load of groceries my battery pack is typically down to about 38.6 volts and that leaves plenty to run down to the local Dairy Queen if I choose to.

In the real world with my power requirement and distances the 18650 battery pack is simple and it works. I happen to believe those two attributes are what many first time users are looking for.

*** If you look at the bike in my signature thread then you will note I can be a biggot with regards to weight.
One more thing: This is my 3rd generation e-bike. The first used SLA batteries but there were not a lot of 'affordable' choices at that time.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

Post Reply