Saved from the (fun) police with speed limiter?

OK, so many users here have machines that are basically light motorcycles. Although the bikes may be ridden responsibly, here in the USA you are allowed only 20 MPH and 1 HP / ~750W so consequently any decent electric bike is not supposed to be operated on public roads.

As for myself, I exercise good judgement and try to not scare anyone while riding the ebike at "reasonable" speeds. If I see a cop I slow to 20 and start pedaling. Now, these 2 things will keep anyone's odds of confrontation with the law low...but you still run the risk of an awkward interview at the least if pulled over with a bike that will jump forward or smoke the tires at 5 million RPM if the cop tries the throttle. Naturally, the solution here is a computer controlled speed and power selector "kill switch" which works with any halfway decent controller on the market since they all have that functionality. You could just use a mechanical one on the bars but that would be pretty obvious and easily discovered. With a computer you can have some sort of reset pattern that won't be uncovered during normal inspection. So, trigger it and the bike is locked in to 20 MPH / ~750 watts and can only be reset by a knowledgeable user by non-obvious methods. You could also just have a jumper you pull and casually discard, done. I'm sure many, many people have already modified their bikes in a related fashion.

So, with all the users out there around the world riding hopped up ebikes, I ask...do you have any experience being pulled over on a bike that was too fast, flipping a switch to limit power and speed, and then offering to let the cop ride your bike that now appears to fully comply with the law? How did that go?

Yeah, I've been pulled over because I didn't have a tail light, which btw is not required. And I made a big stink about being pulled over. My bike will do over 40 mph, but I was only riding ~15mph. I doubt he even knew it was an ebike. Besides, cops are not authorized to ride your bike, drive your car or do anything to it except look at it. It's private property and they can't access it without your permission or a warrant. Know your rights. Of course if he clocks over 20 mph, then you're screwed. Still, he can't ride your bike or drive your car. I can pull the main power connection in less than 1 second should I ever feel the need to do so. When they then try the throttle, the controller will hit LVC and all they'll get is a click.

I think a bike carefully programmed to deliver 750W at the wheel across the entire speed range up to 20mph would be hugely fun. That would imply a motor and controller combo that could actually deliver much more power, but was actively restricted within the upper range of of its speed. But just like a Tesla that makes people go woohoo without having to break the speed limit, the thrust from a standstill that comes from pushing 750W mechanical at near zero RPM would be rather crowd pleasing.

Electronic controls are comparatively cheap. Dyno testing to tune the system isn't, as they say, rocket science. I don't understand why nobody has applied a little engineering acumen to make a 100% legal, 100% CPSC compliant e-bike that would make other legal e-bikes seem like weak clumsy junk.

20mph is a satisfying speed on a bike. Wind noise is minimal, protective gear is optional, and your attention can wander away from scrutinizing the surface every second. If you can reach that speed in a hurry, I don't think there's anything lame or disappointing about it at all.

Chalo said:

I think a bike carefully programmed to deliver 750W at the wheel across the entire speed range up to 20mph would be hugely fun.

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If by hugely fun you mean slow feeling to anyone who has ever ridden a more powerful ebike, sure. Anyone with a calibrated cycle analyst can limit the power like this, btw.

Chalo said:

20mph is a satisfying speed on a bike.

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Maybe to you 20 mph is perfectly OK but other users have reasonable preferences for higher speeds.


OK, back on topic! Post your encounters with authorities, preferably involving the use of a speed switch.

flat tire said:

here in the USA you are allowed only 20 MPH and 1 HP / ~750W

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Nope.

Every state has their own regulations, and some have higher or lower limits to those.

Some, like AZ, don't even have a power limit, though they do a speed limit (<20MPH here--but it is not a vehicle limit, it is an operator limit, meaning that you're only allowed to ride it under 20MPH, but there's nothing requiring you to limit the *ability* of the vehicle to that speed, unlike some other states).

Some even make them totally illegal.


If you want to read about the CPSC guidelines that are constantly misquoted as "federal ebike law", there are many discussions here on ES about it. Just search on CPSC and you'll probably find most of them.

A quick summary is simply that it only applies to manufacturers / sellers of complete bikes, not to the way the bikes are operated on public roads (each state and locality governs that; the federal government cannot).

not a problem at this time, i did remove all branding and anything that could be googled if stopped
always pedal ,speed limiter active, keep your head down

here is one simple solution that I haven't seen anyone use:
have two different shunts ( the ones inside controller for current limit), needs a high amp switch, one setting for high amps and one for low amps.

Nice thing about New Mexico,, we get to go 30 mph legal, and the watt limit is 50cc's so call it 5 hp. 4000w is legal. In NM it's a moped law, so you do have to have a valid license. But if you don't cause problems, cops just wave and smile at you, even when you are doing 30 mph down the bike path. (when it's not crowded with walkers) Which btw,, has no motor signage up. :lol:

Of course, no smiles and waves if you are the jerk the cops know all too well.

Not the only state like this,, the new law in California allows 27 mph. No license either.

I would just do a kill switch if you are really worried. a simple jumper on your ignition wire you can yank and get rid of. I used to make this "key" for one ebike from a bread bag tie. They won't figure that one out very quick.

The very-common 3-speed switch on Infineon controllers performs basically this function...

Chalo has a point, it's often better/nicer to cruise slower. 20mph is a definite transition in riding experience.

Punx0r said:

...20mph is a definite transition in riding experience.

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Yep, back to pedal bike. F****n slow in the traffic, but so easy to carry 15 Lbs up the stairs.

If ebikes were all legal, the market would never fly out of the disabled, fatty grannies crowd. The electric revolution has to take off by making gassers obsolete.

I have a rap I used the last time I got pulled over in my 2,000 lb Toyota Yaris for going a bit over a 35 mph speed limit, (42, about 1/2 mile before the limit went up to 45) when and if I get pulled over on my e bike I'll use a variation of it. My crane weighs 52,000 lbs. and I need a CDL to drive it. When I handed over my license and insurance cert I included my business card which has a picture of the crane, and went into my bit, which went along the lines of " after I park Miss Piggy and get in this little thing, sometimes it takes a little while to re-adjust". It doesn't make a lot of sense, but it worked. Left unsaid was "please don't screw up my CDL with a BS ticket, I promise it won't happen again." Lots of no sirs and yes sirs of course throughout. I really can't imagine any local LE ever bothering me, it would just be too hard for both of us to keep a straight face, it doesn't hurt that my crane yard is right next to the cop shop, so they know I'm not some kind of degenerate but a tax payer.

Having said all that, I look for cops, always, and slow it down and for sure pedal, so far so good. I do not plan to install any kind of emergency limiter.

flat tire said:

Chalo said:

I think a bike carefully programmed to deliver 750W at the wheel across the entire speed range up to 20mph would be hugely fun.

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If by hugely fun you mean slow feeling to anyone who has ever ridden a more powerful ebike, sure. Anyone with a calibrated cycle analyst can limit the power like this, btw.

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I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. I doubt your bike, for instance, delivers 750W to the wheel until it's going several MPH. I don't doubt it's stuffing kWs of juice into the motor, though.

Yes, you'd need CA-style electronic intervention; but more than that, you'd need the e-bike equivalent of a 4.11 rear end. The whole system would have to be "geared" mechanically and/or electrically so that it was physically capable of reaching 750W mechanical output at a very low wheel rpm.

A high end Tesla has enough HP to go something like 200mph, but it doesn't do that. It's a better car because it doesn't do that. 20mph is an arbitrary legal limit, but it's also a point at which cycling becomes more like motorcycling from a safety and situational awareness standpoint.

I think it would be valid to provide a more exciting and capable bike that still conforms to most state laws defining e-bikes. Here in Texas, the laws are more relaxed and we have more latitude to use high performance bikes. But nationwide, I think a CPSC compliant e-bike with low speed punch and a surplus of torque (which isn't the same as power) would be one of those keys that unlocks a bigger market for e-bikes.

Well, I used to have a road bike with a powertap and I could put out decent power as a sprinter. 750 watts is not nearly enough, even at low speed. If you think it is your bike either has a very wheelie prone CG or you have conservative ebiking tastes and will not have a problem being satisfied by modest setups. The second one is a good thing. To each his own...I want a lot of power.

Also, the Tesla CAN'T go 200...and if it could it would be a better car. Biggest issue, the motors aren't designed to spin that fast or put out much torque at those speeds, also heat would be an issue, and the battery would be depleted too quickly. The rest of the car would probably also need modification in order to make speeds like that safe.

So, now that we've addressed those issues, let's go back on topic and hear your stories

I just skimmed this so maybe someone already said it but...

The Cycle Analyst already does this. You can just set one profile to your 750w 20mph or whatever profile.. and the other to an unlimited one.

mine is set to basiclly unlimited UNLESS the motor is overheating, or the battery is low. If the battery is low, it just feathers the throttle so that I never drop below a set voltage.

Its a pretty cool piece of tech that every ebike would benefit from.

MrDude_1 said:

The Cycle Analyst already does this. You can just set one profile to your 750w 20mph or whatever profile.. and the other to an unlimited one.
mine is set to basiclly unlimited UNLESS the motor is overheating, or the battery is low. If the battery is low, it just feathers the throttle so that I never drop below a set voltage.
Its a pretty cool piece of tech that every ebike would benefit from.

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Yeah I've only had the experience of ebiking with a Cycle Analyst, and I can't imagine not having one. Obviously everything is possible without it, but it just makes it so simple to get on-the-fly visibility into everything I care about, and to control everything in the way I want to.

And yes, I definitely have the "legal" profile configured, for quick switching (though in AZ apparently it's more about what you're doing and less about what you can do, so it may not matter...)

I'd be interested in experiencing what 750w delivered to the wheel would feel like. Chalo might be right that it would be plenty satisfying.
I agree also with flat tire that 750w from the controller to my DD hub is far from satisfying.

I'm afraid I can never be happy at 20 mph though, now that I've tasted 30. 30ish mph feels like just the right balance of comfort and travel time and fun and safety, to me. To each their own, of course, but I think it's a shame that Arizona doesn't officially endorse that speed limit for motor-assisted bicycles.

Jabotical said:

And yes, I definitely have the "legal" profile configured, for quick switching (though in AZ apparently it's more about what you're doing and less about what you can do, so it may not matter...)

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It doesn't matter what your ebike *can* do here, it's all about the operator.

If you had a gas engine on there...*then* there is a limit to the cc size, but that's all.

So while it might be helpful to those with a "lead thumb" in avoiding legal trouble, having a bike-level speed orpower limiter setup on the bike here in AZ is not required, other than what the operator does with it.

Other states, whole other story. :/

Jabotical said:

I'm afraid I can never be happy at 20 mph though, now that I've tasted 30. 30ish mph feels like just the right balance of comfort and travel time and fun and safety, to me. To each their own, of course, but I think it's a shame that Arizona doesn't officially endorse that speed limit for motor-assisted bicycles.

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Im already doomed. Im coming from an overpowered motorcycle background, so it could ALWAYS be quicker or faster. :lol:
Because of my local area, 40mph is about right for me... it lets me stay with traffic rather than having them hate and overtake dangerously.

Electric Motorcycles are a better fit for high speed. Perhaps buy a moped and convert it to electric for that "in between" class.

Alan B said:

Electric Motorcycles are a better fit for high speed. Perhaps buy a moped and convert it to electric for that "in between" class.

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We're only talking speeds identical to downhill mountain bikes. not high speed.
heck, the zero electric motorcycle doesnt even really hit high speed, it can bearly keep with fast interstate traffic.

and a moped? smaller wheels and a vehicle made for only 35mph with no upgrades easily available.


nope.
You want your odd lightweight electric motorcycle that is a modified bicycle, you just have to build it yourself... there is no getting around that. :lol:

40 mph is high moped speed, well above bicycle speed. In California mopeds aren't even allowed legally to go 40, that's the domain of small motorcycles. Electric bicycles are now allowed 28 under some circumstances, and mopeds, with license and insurance are allowed 30.

Interestingly, common moped tires are rated for 95 mph and are nearly 24" outside diameter. Not that small or slow. They make great commuter ebike tires, cheaper and longer lasting than bicycle tires with much more puncture resistance.

Zero motorcycles go 95-102 mph, fast enough to earn a speeding ticket on any freeway, and any judge would likely refer to that as "high speed". They could go faster, but range suffers a lot, so they made choices, and with a single speed drive system top speed vs low speed acceleration is traded off.

Downhill mountain bikes aren't designed to go 40 mph all the time, and the legal and safety aspects of running an ebike at 40 mph in traffic are concerning. Most bicycle tires aren't rated for 40 mph. The handling characteristics of Downhill mountain bikes at 40 mph in traffic are not very good. Their suspensions are designed for light weight and long travel, not for tight precise pavement handling. The folks who race electric bicycles have commented about their terrible handling characteristics, and you don't find them racing those.

If you want to ride legally in traffic at 40, an ebike is not the solution.

Alan B said:

40 mph is high moped speed, well above bicycle speed. In California mopeds aren't even allowed legally to go 40, that's the domain of small motorcycles. Electric bicycles are now allowed 28 under some circumstances, and mopeds, with license and insurance are allowed 30.

Interestingly, common moped tires are rated for 95 mph and are nearly 24" outside diameter. Not that small or slow. They make great commuter ebike tires, cheaper and longer lasting than bicycle tires with much more puncture resistance.

Zero motorcycles go 95-102 mph, fast enough to earn a speeding ticket on any freeway, and any judge would likely refer to that as "high speed". They could go faster, but range suffers a lot, so they made choices, and with a single speed drive system top speed vs low speed acceleration is traded off.

Downhill mountain bikes aren't designed to go 40 mph all the time, and the legal and safety aspects of running an ebike at 40 mph in traffic are concerning. Most bicycle tires aren't rated for 40 mph. The handling characteristics of Downhill mountain bikes at 40 mph in traffic are not very good. Their suspensions are designed for light weight and long travel, not for tight precise pavement handling. The folks who race electric bicycles have commented about their terrible handling characteristics, and you don't find them racing those.

If you want to ride legally in traffic at 40, an ebike is not the solution.

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I live in a freer state. The entire idea isnt that is legal (or safe) its that its freedom to go down the street at my own risk.
Also, remember lane splitting isnt legal elsewhere in the USA... so this lets me pass traffic when they're all stopped.

Alan B said:

Downhill mountain bikes aren't designed to go 40 mph all the time...

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They (some at least) are designed to take 30 ft drops at 40 Mph :wink:
The world speed record on a stock DH bike is about 140 Mph.
For the street, we mod the suspension to 4 in and slack the steer angle. On 24 X 3.0 street tires, a stiff DH frame properly built with street bike geometry handles, corners and brakes in city trafic much better than a Zero motorcycle, or any motorcycle for that matter. It is a matter of weight and wheelbase. As for legality, let's face it, most ebikes are not legal anyway and for that purpose I agree with you: If you want speed and power yet being legal, buy a motorcycle.

For Pete's sake. Everyone is free to ride an electric motorcycle if they want. They're just not free to do it on the same terms as a bicycle.

Get over it, people. If you want a motorcycle, put on your grown-up pants and do it. But don't call your janky e-motorcycle a bicycle, because it's not.

Chalo said:

For Pete's sake. Everyone is free to ride an electric motorcycle if they want. They're just not free to do it on the same terms as a bicycle.
Get over it, people. If you want a motorcycle, put on your grown-up pants and do it. But don't call your janky e-motorcycle a bicycle, because it's not.

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True enough. I suppose the question is just where the dividing line is between a emotor-assisted bicycle and a janky e-motorcycle. ~20mph capable seems to be a common legal definition, but some states draw the line at up to more like ~30mph. I'm kind of with you in thinking that ~40mph is definitely in mo[ped/tercycle] territory, where you should be wearing more elaborate protective gear, probably have better shocks, lights and signals become even more important, size/weight/speed danger likely is higher, etc.

Guys, this thread is not to discuss whether or not bicycles are good for 40 MPH and above. That question has been answered years ago, and the answer is (if you have a good setup, like a downhill MTB) an overwhelming YES!!! Bicycles are awesome at that speed, just have motorcycle skills to control it and realize you are in for some road rash if you go down.

We're here to talk about police encounters on the ebike, preferably involving a thwarting of authority with variable speed limits on your controller. Please share stories along THOSE lines.