Commuter...Hub or mid drive?

Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
212
Hello All,

I had been only considering mid drive since my dad has a BBS02 setup and it works so well, but costs run quite a bit higher on a Mid drive so now I am also looking into a hub motor. My needs are 12mile commute and I can charge at work as well, but would be cool if I could get close to a round trip on one charge. I will be pedaling as well as I dont want to just ride to work. Route is mostly flat and I am in Los Angles so extreme cold is not an issue.

Bike will have 700c tires and possibly a lefty single sided front fork (Cannondale Contro 3). my guess single sided means a no go for a hub motor on the front, but it would be cool as I would not need to remove the wheel to change the tire. Mid drive is a no brainer on this bike however but higher cost. Big question is should I be considering hub drive as well, or should I just bite the bullet cost wise and go with the SDHD?

If anyone has an everyday commuter in a hub and mid drive version I would love to hear from you.

Marc
 
addicted2climbing said:
Route is mostly flat...

What advantage do you assume to gain from a mid drive motor system in your situation?

A hub motor with "typical power" is easier to install, cheaper and more powerful, you keep a better q-factor and most likely the maintenance costs are cheaper, too...
 
Depends on your riding style, on the flat both will do the job.
Mid drive if you are an athlete pedal hard and even the 250w will gallop along at 24/25mph or 38/40 km/h. with some reprogramming to get the best out of it.
Equally the strong Q128c 328rpm lighter then a bafang and @ 36v 20a will have you galloping along at 26/27 mph give it 48v/12s and be nearer or over 30. Another thing to think about at the end of a tiring day a hub drive will be kinder and more relaxing to ride then a go for it mid drive.
 
I have several builds including hubmotors and mid drive.

For commuting the reliability and simplicity of the hubmotor wins. If the motor quits you can still pedal.

For climbing steep stuff and off-road the mid drive is great, and the 2WD is a close second.

Most flats are in the rear, so best to put the hubmotor in front, but it is difficult to mount hubmotors safely in front forks, and finding one made for mounting in a single side fork would be harder.

Mounting a hubmotor in the rear includes dealing with rear sprockets, torque arms, etc.

For changing flat tires the mid drive wins.

You must choose.
 
Rear punctures can be nullified a little by sticking on Scwalbe Marathon plus or similar kevlar guard tyre or go tubeless with sealant like Caffelatex of Stan's.
 
hemo said:
Rear punctures can be nullified a little by sticking on Scwalbe Marathon plus or similar kevlar guard tyre or go tubeless with sealant like Caffelatex of Stan's.

not really... I have a set of marathon plus with less that 200 km on them and i got a puncture from a safety pin. it didnt flatten immediately though and im not sure how far i drove with that safety pin in my rear tire, but the next day i had a flat :(
 
Tyre liners are also an option, but they allegedly come with periodic punctures from the liner rubbing through the tube. I've never had this issue and I used to get punctures all the time. I've always preferred them because you can reuse a liner in multiple tyres, but you can only wear through a tyre once. It also ensures higher turnover of tyres due to wear, reducing the likelihood of ending up with old rubber on the bike.

I'm trying out a hub for my next bike, the wear and tear on a middrive used a lot is a pain in the butt...
 
hemo said:
Depends on your riding style, on the flat both will do the job.
Mid drive if you are an athlete pedal hard and even the 250w will gallop along at 24/25mph or 38/40 km/h. with some reprogramming to get the best out of it.
Equally the strong Q128c 328rpm lighter then a bafang and @ 36v 20a will have you galloping along at 26/27 mph give it 48v/12s and be nearer or over 30. Another thing to think about at the end of a tiring day a hub drive will be kinder and more relaxing to ride then a go for it mid drive.

Hello Hemo,

Thank you for the reply. I may look into hub motors a bit more. My concern was I did want to keep my rear derailer and unsure if that is possible on a hub motor. Seems most i see keep the front and have a single sprocket on the motor. The bike I am choosing has only a single chain ring in the front and a 10 in the rear. Also one thing I like about the mid drive is seems a cleaner install in regards to controller and such. On the Hub motors the controllers tend to be external. I would like to hide it if possible. IS there a shark/dolphin type battery that also has a controller in the case or the mount? If not what are my options to hide the controller aside from a bag? One thing though is the bike has an integrated rack and I could possibly hide it on the side of the rack behind the pannier bag I intend to have that carries my computer and work stuff. My dad has a 500w BBS01 and it works well for him without a hitch but granted he does not ride it every day. However he does like having his standard bike gearing and he can get going above 35mph on 700c tires. I need to ask him what voltage he is running.

I had a look at the Q128c and it looks to be a standard 135mm drop in so it looks like an easy instal. Here is a link to the bike I am considering. https://www.rei.com/product/877741/cannondale-contro-3-bike-2016
it has some beefy chainstays, but the hangar doe snot look all that sotout or suitable for a hub drive. your thoughts? IS BMS battery the only place that sells the Q128c? If so are their other items good like batteries or should I look to luna cycle for batteries and such.

Marc
 
Alan B said:
I have several builds including hubmotors and mid drive.

For commuting the reliability and simplicity of the hubmotor wins. If the motor quits you can still pedal.

For climbing steep stuff and off-road the mid drive is great, and the 2WD is a close second.

Most flats are in the rear, so best to put the hubmotor in front, but it is difficult to mount hubmotors safely in front forks, and finding one made for mounting in a single side fork would be harder.

Mounting a hubmotor in the rear includes dealing with rear sprockets, torque arms, etc.

For changing flat tires the mid drive wins.

You must choose.

Thank you for the great reply Alan, I am looking into the Q128c that was mentioned above.
 
Lots of folks maintain 6-7 gears in the rear with a good size hubmotor and freewheel, and some of the newer hubmotors have the cassette spline. I haven't tried those.

I started with a 27 speed setup, and changed to an 18 speed with a 27mm (magnet width) DD hub and freewheel, which is fairly large. The 10 speed cassette is harder, it is so wide it pushes the motor over and makes the spoke angles rather difficult. It may be possible with one of those small hubmotors which don't develop a lot of thrust but may be enough for you. A 2wd setup with small hubmotors front and rear would be good if you could solve the issues with the front forks, and you could start with the rear motor and add the front if you wanted more thrust.
 
addicted2climbing said:
... 12mile commute... Route is mostly flat...

IMO, keep it easy with simplicity and light weight. Checkout the hub choices at Clean Republic http://www.electric-bike-kit.com and Leed's http://www.e-bikerig.com . On flat ground even a 250-watt geared front hub would be sufficient.
 
addicted2climbing said:
I may look into hub motors a bit more. My concern was I did want to keep my rear derailer and unsure if that is possible on a hub motor. Seems most i see keep the front and have a single sprocket on the motor. The bike I am choosing has only a single chain ring in the front and a 10 in the rear.....

... IS there a shark/dolphin type battery that also has a controller in the case or the mount? If not what are my options to hide the controller aside from a bag?...

...My dad has a 500w BBS01 and it works well for him without a hitch but granted he does not ride it every day. However he does like having his standard bike gearing and he can get going above 35mph on 700c tires...

Here is a link to the bike I am considering. https://www.rei.com/product/877741/cannondale-contro-3-bike-2016

it has some beefy chainstays, but the hangar doe snot look all that sotout or suitable for a hub drive. your thoughts? IS BMS battery the only place that sells the Q128c?

Nothing wrong with keeping the rear derailleur (that I'm aware of). you can buy hub motors for either a cassette or a freewheel. Freewheel design tends to be stronger at the motor, but weaker in the freewheel compared to cassette. Check it can take 10 speed before you buy it - the width of the part that the cassette sits on may not be wide enough.

Yes, BMS battery sells a Dolphin pack (or used to) which had a small controller built into the battery mount. Check it is capable of delivering enough power before consider this, from memory the figures weren't high. Also questionable how much cooling is available to it.

Then your dad has a 500w BBS02. I have been commuting for some time on the weaker version, the BBS01. Nothing particularly wrong with it, but not great maintenance wise, hence why I'm switching to a hub motor. It definitely has the benefit of a neat, compact installation as the controller is part of the motor unit and they are dead easy to install.

The bike is nice either way, not sure why you are so concerned about the rear derailleur hanger. I would be checking rear dropout width and bottom bracket width so if you change your mind, you can switch to a BBS unit later if you want. It would also be ideal to test fit a dolphin battery in the inner triangle rather than on the rear rack, the weight distribution would be better and feels up the rack for commuting/shopping duties. Lefty forks always weird me out, but each to their own.

I'm not aware of anyone else selling the Q128 series of motor, but they are another brand. I started a thread on them previously, but went with a different motor in the end. You might want to look that thread up, covered that motor and other similar options around 500w ish.
 
Addicted to climbing,
You will be able to keep the derailleur and ten spd cassette. Get the 09 controller kit from BMSB the controller replaces the existing battery/docking base on the cradle, it will fit all Dolphin batteries giving a neat install.
The controller base is Ali and acts as a heat sink and the ambient air will help cooling as well. I have mine in a vented saddle bag it does get warm but not that you can't keep your hand on it.
You have to be careful with BMSB though as I ordered 36v 201rpm and thought I would get about 19mph but the 201 marked one I got goes 26mph, so looks like I got a 328 mislabelled as 201. Currently I'm in dialogue with them but not expecting to much.
 
If I switch bikes to one with a standard fork than adding a front drive is an option. I just found the Priority eight and it looks quite nice. I could possibly buy a small diameter front drive for this bike instead and be way under my target cost of the Contro 3 and the mid drive setup. Any suggestions on a good front drive setup with a nice shark type battery setup?

Marc
 
I really like my mid drives. When they work and if you get a good build, they're great. Get a problem drive, fixing plate not tapped out for mounting, parts missing from the kit, bad controller, shaft with play, all infrequent but with far more regularity than ANY DD or GD kit.

Far more problems with mid drives, and regardless of the claims there are problems with getting parts and the RIGHT parts. Bafang sucks wind on that account.

Front drives? Everyone here hates them or nearly, but of my 6 bikes the 1000W front direct drive with a Lyen 3077 22A controller just runs. Nothing to do but ride. Not suitable for many. Hated by many with all the stories of odd steering and spinning out. I have ZERO issues. If I had it to do again I'd likley grab a MAC. A good ES poster sells them out of AU. I think they can be drop shipped. But thats a bare motor. EM3ev for a kit. Most say they're pretty good at hills. I'm gonna have one. I also like the MXUS kits sold. Electric Rider and ebikes.ca have some really nice motors and kits too. There's so many choices. I think more n00bs are jumping on the mid drives. Old timers have them but their go to rides seem to be direct drives. And as I grow up in my hobby I'm ;eating the same direction. But hey, any daily rider needs two anyway so...

Just duck if wesnewell shows up with his budget pitch. Buy right the first time. It's more fun if everything works and you have support immediately.
 
Jon NCal said:
Well, Justin rides a front DD, just saying.

He has and no doubt will, again. Currently, he's riding an eZee geared front hub. Just saying because it would be unfair to apply a label to someone who appears to taste a lot of flavors.
 
tomjasz said:
... Front drives? Everyone here hates them or nearly, ...
I have had three E-bikes and all have been front drive hubs but I am weird. Come to think of it they have all had 3 Speed IGH's as well.
 
The front geared (BMC) hubmotor I've recently added to my 2WD mountain bike (the Bonanza) works well, and adds a lot of torque without much power draw. The front install avoids any issues with the rear pedal powertrain, but it does have challenges of its own. I removed the front suspension fork to get a quality steel front fork and used dual torque arms (one per side) to insure that the gearmotor torque doesn't spin or slip out of the dropouts as that is a nasty accident. The front does suffer from less traction, so it does slip at times, especially with the additional weight transfer from pedaling and the rear DD hubmotor. Since flat tires are more common in the rear tire, it is less likely to have to repair the hubmotored tire (though in my case both wheels are motored). :)

There is no regen, but the low resistance to gliding or pedaling is very nice.

Front forks are narrow, so there is less room for a motor, however there is no gear cluster to compete for space, so the space is not that different. If a rim brake is used there is a good space for a front motor, and I think some motors take advantage of that.

There are lots of choices, and many tradeoffs.
 
I’ve sampled everything over nearly 10 year period and “all” have pros and cons.

Front hub motors nearly eliminate any spoke issues. They’re also much less likely to suffer puncture flats than rear tires. Ask any bicycle shop professional if you doubt that claim.

Conversely, with rear hub motor wheels builds, if you ride long and far enough you will eventually encounter spoke breakage and the associated drama.

It’s really not that bad though and if you take the time to learn wheel building and truing (hub motors = easy to lace) you’ll be in very good shape to handle that eventuality.

Perhaps more troubling, rear tires suffer proportionally higher puncture flats (and in many cases, more pinch flats too) and be assured any flat tire on a hub motor eBike is gonna suck much worse than a flat with a regular bicycle wheel.

If I don’t feel like fixing it myself, a flat on my BBS02 equipped ride can simply be QR’d (quick released) and dropped off at any LBS (local bike shop) to be repaired and picked up after work, etc.

At 1st I didn’t like the BBS02. It took me a while to get accustomed with it but now I find it remarkably well suited to my daily commuting regime. Chains may eventually annoy me but so far running a good chain line and modest power level it hasn’t been a problem.

Knowing what I know now, I’d probably choose BB drive for my daily commuter.
 
Knowing what I know now, I’d probably choose BB drive for my daily commuter

I agree. Hubs don't have to bother with shifting to keep the motor in the right gear, plus hubs are a simpler install. The major factor IMHO is that the most popular hub kits are noticably cheaper than the popular mid drives. Cost drives so many purchase decisions.

That being said, I don't have steep uphills (Kansas is pretty flat) and yet my favorite ebike to ride is my 1500W BBSHD in an aluminum cruiser frame. If I wasn't so busy, I'd swap-in a Nexus 3-speed IGH, because I run my 7-speed freewheel like a 2-speed.
 
My installation experience has been a little different. In every case the hubmotors were more difficult to install than the BBSHD. This particular mid drive install was pretty much take the crankset off, bolt on the BBSHD, route the cables, install connector on the battery, plug it in and go.

With hubmotors the dropouts always need to be filed, the torque arms fitted which usually involves removing connectors/reinstalling them on the motor cable, and there are more separate parts to mount, and more cables to route. Then there's phasing to sort through and programming to do. The BBSHD didn't need those steps.

I agree that most mid drives are more installation trouble than the BBS02/BBSHD however. They are unusually easy.

Rear hubmotors often get tangled up in freewheels, shifters and derailleurs. Front hubmotors get tangled in lawyer lips and harder to fit torque arms.
 
Thanks for all the great posts everyone. I should be making a decision soon.

Its either going to be a Priority Eight with front hub or mid drive if I can get the belt line to work on a BBSHD. Or it will be the Cannondale Contro 3 with BBSHD. Cost is an issue and I am currently leaning towards the Priority Eight with the front hub. I just asked a question in another thread regarding my concern of the front fork being aluminum. However I would use 2 torque arms and likely the MAC 350w motor on 36v so maybe its not too much power to be an issue. One other plus with the hub motor is if I ever decide to entertain switching to the BBSHD than I can put the hub motor setup on my wifes bike.

Marc
 
Back
Top