How do police test compliance of ebike (Australia)

I sent the police an email but they are not responding. Can anyone tell me how the police test the compliance of an ebike. Specifically the 200watt limit on throttle only ebikes.

Do they put the ebike wheel on a special ebike dyno and actuate the throttle?

Do they impound the bike and require you to pay for compliance testing (guilty until proven innocent)?

So many questions and no answers from the powers that be.

It is best for you to get other e-bike people in your area to get together , and pressure your local Jurisdiction to change the law/s to
more reasonable levels.
For instance stress that a 1.5 to 2 Horse Power Equivalent is best for everyone.
do not say 1,000-1,500 watts, since most people on this earth only know about Horse Power numbers , list the Horse Power Equivalent.
The 1.5 - 2 HP is a very reasonable goal.
Remember to tell them that cars and motorcycles are over 100 HP.

I would have the Laws changed to 1.5 - 2 HP for Offroad/Bike Trails. ( with proper speed limits , of course )
and
For Bicycle Commuters who ride on the road , 3 to 5 HP Limits/Legality.

These Numbers Should be the Law World Wide .

Nothing fishy with those numbers, but that's a moped. Everywhere, there is the ability to deal with mopeds.

If you're saying mopeds should get exactly the same access and treatment as bicycles, you're simply wrong.

The OP can't wave a wand and get the bike-hostile Australian authorities to change their traffic code any more than you can make a moped into a bicycle by wishing it were so.

Interest Groups and Lobby Groups , Change Laws all the Time, Monday Friday Every Week in Fact.

And I am sure the OP knows that he will have to work to do so.

The Point is that Laws in regards to way too restrictive power limits on e-bikes need to be changed at it is , at least start the process now.

It's a non-trivial rig to make, I would estimate at least $50k to build something repeatable.

I've heard there is at least 1 ebike test rig setup in the UK to measure if ebikes are compliant.
This perhaps could be the only one (hopefully).

I have never heard of an Ebike being tested in Au
Try if you like wasting your time and energy, but there is little chance Au will change their laws to increase the power limits for Ebikes. More chance they will ban them completely ( like they have. segways , motorised bicycles, hoverboards, etc)
Ride your Ebike sensibly and you will go un noticed no matter what power you have.
I have ridden various 1+ kW Ebikes for the last 8 yrs or so with no issuses...and that is around Sidney City center !
The lycra clad pedal racers create enough distraction to keep the law looking their way , not mine. :wink:

Cars etc are not restricted by HP, and are only classified by weight and limited to speed per location/instance.

Ebikes should also not be restricted by HP (because it's ridiculous to attempt to enforce), but simply by weight, for now.
Speed for ebikes is also easy to enforce and is more directly proportional to real world safety (than HP under reasonable weights), so it seems logical that speed limits wouldn't be a bad idea in conjuction with weight limits, for those unable to act responsibly on the road . . .

And scooterman has a point, the only way to actually effect change starts with one, then the friend or neighbor, and so on. Sometimes 'the flow' isn't so bad to go with, but imo the wattage limits are just absurd in the real world. Even 1kw.

Chalo said:

Nothing fishy with those numbers, but that's a moped. Everywhere, there is the ability to deal with mopeds.

If you're saying mopeds should get exactly the same access and treatment as bicycles, you're simply wrong.

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I do agree.

200W motor power and no speed limit for motor assist would be perfect for _me_ for example. 200W motor power is in line with what healthy people are able to pedal for some time...

There is nothing wrong with riding a 2 wheel vehicle with 4000W motor power and some pedals attached and those vehicles are available, but they have _nothing_ to do with bicycles.

---

Btw, to quick test for 200W motorpower you just need to make an acceleration test on a flat road with a known weight. Very easy and quick to do...

liveforphysics said:

I've heard there is at least 1 ebike test rig setup in the UK to measure if ebikes are compliant.

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That's interesting and something I've not heard before. Do you have any more information about this?

Seems a bit overkill for the UK to be honest. The law here limits you to a motor with a continuous rating of 250W (which we all know is meaningless), although there is no limit to the amount of power that can be run. Interestingly, the 250W limit came about as a measure to counter the trend by manufacturers to overrate their motors in a race to outdo each other, so is actually more a consumer protection measure than one of safety or power limitation.

Other laws governing ebike usage in the UK are a 15.5mph speed limit and a lower age limit of 14. There used to be a maximum weight limit, but this was done away with not long ago.

TBH, all that would be required to test the legality of ebikes in the UK is a speed radar gun, motor documentation (motor label or plate) and proof of age. I'm not sure what more a $50k testing machine would bring to the table.

The original question has not been answered. Partly because the answer is not easy to give. There is nothing in legislation or police handbooks that stipulates how the limit is to be enforced.

However, like many things, police can act on reasonable suspicion. Being issued with a fine, or having your bike impounded is not "guilty before proven innocent" any more than being arrested on a murder charge before trial is guilty before proven innocent. It is just an accusation - one you can "plead guilty" to by paying the fine, or one you can contest, just like you can plead not guilty to a murder charge and get a trial.

In answer to your question, depending on the state, police can do a number of things including:

Observing your speed and behaviour
Examining the bike and any identifying labels and specifications
Performing road side informal tests
Compelling you to attend formal testing. The RMS in NSW has engaged an engineering firm to performing testing using a bike dyno. Remember, they don't need to get exact repeatable results, only prove that your bike is over 200w. If their dyno has an accuracy of +/- 20% which is virtually useless, but you dyno 1kw, it doesn't matter. You're done like a dinner.

In reality, it's like any other roadside police interaction. Few police joined the force to slap fines on motorists. In my youth, I've been cautioned for doing more than double the speed limit, and I've had friends slapped with a defect notice drivinga brand new car home (He gave the cop attitude, and the cop found the dealer hadn't filled the windscreen washer resevoir)

Just use your judgement...

SaladFish said:

I sent the police an email but they are not responding. Can anyone tell me how the police test the compliance of an ebike. Specifically the 200watt limit on throttle only ebikes.

Do they put the ebike wheel on a special ebike dyno and actuate the throttle?

Do they impound the bike and require you to pay for compliance testing (guilty until proven innocent)?

So many questions and no answers from the powers that be.

Click to expand...

Your question has probably been translated by their admin staff to their superiors as a suggestion for the police to obtain compliance testing equipment.

liveforphysics said:

It's a non-trivial rig to make, I would estimate at least $50k to build something repeatable.

I've heard there is at least 1 ebike test rig setup in the UK to measure if ebikes are compliant.

Click to expand...

I can't see how that can be and I suspect it's just scaremongering because there is no standard for maximum power in the UK. The standard that applies to electric bicycles is EN15194. In that, it only mentions the rating of the motor, not it's maximum power. If you follow the standards down to motor rating, the one that applies only tests over-rating, not under-rating. The only thing the police can do is check the manufacturer's label or try and find the motor in a catalogue. Of course, they can always test maximum speed, so no need to test power.

Sunder said:

T
In answer to your question, depending on the state, police can do a number of things including:

Observing your speed and behaviour
Examining the bike and any identifying labels and specifications
Performing road side informal tests
Compelling you to attend formal testing. The RMS in NSW has engaged an engineering firm to performing testing using a bike dyno. Remember, they don't need to get exact repeatable results, only prove that your bike is over 200w. If their dyno has an accuracy of +/- 20% which is virtually useless, but you dyno 1kw, it doesn't matter. You're done like a dinner.

Click to expand...

I though that Australia had already adopted EN15194 as the standard for electric bikes, which allows a motor rated at 250w continuous, not 200w as long as you don't have a throttle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Australia

The 250w is rated continuous power. There's no maximum power stipulated. We know that most OEM 250w bikes that are certified to comply with EN15194 run at about 600w maximum from the battery. Some are considerably higher.

d8veh said:

Sunder said:

I though that Australia had already adopted EN15194 as the standard for electric bikes, which allows a motor rated at 250w continuous, not 200w as long as you don't have a throttle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Australia

The 250w is rated continuous power. There's no maximum power stipulated. We know that most OEM 250w bikes that are certified to comply with EN15194 run at about 600w maximum from the battery. Some are considerably higher.

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The laws are in parallel, and OP specifically asked about the old 200w standard.

Testing pedelc laws are tougher, but still possible. There was a parliamentary paper that described how they did the testing. It includes excluding any power spikes while the speed of the wheel was changing.

Apparently there is a second ISO standard defining "continuous power" and they used this standard. (As I understand, it is referenced in en15194)

Drive a car or motorcycle at it's rated HP,... and you'll certainly be cited!!! Well,... maybe not, if it's a loaded down 30hp VW Beatle.

I've thought it insane to limit bicycle motor ratings based on EITHER hp or wattage. Might as well limit battery ratings to be used. If my system as "a whole", does not exceed the speed or power specified by law,... am I not compliant???

Human powered pedaled bicycle speed records, have exceeded the fastest speed I've EVER dared drive in classic "muscle cars" in my wildest days!!! And most energetic kids would certainly pass me by if I were riding a "200w e-bike setup". Heck, I'm an ol' man, and there's jus no way I could keep up with any serious lycra setups with out some serious assistance!!!

My current beach cruiser system is "capable" of 40mph speeds and over 2000w of power. I adjust my controller amps and max speed and sometimes (rarely) the pedelic/throttle cutout. Speed is MOST apparent. And as long as I'm not burnin' rubber or poppin' wheelies at the light, than power would appear at a reasonable level of "safety". If I pedal off the light or down the sidwalk,... how apparent is it that I'm even under power, if at all?!?! Why should I be in violation of such silly regs, when the pack of cross-country cruisers has jus passed me by, in town no less?!?! Jus because of a battery and motor???

Murder and robbery are actions, punishable by law. Creating laws to banish or control firearms, knives or cricket bats, does not stop murder and robbery from occurring. Regulating e-bikes won't stop actions that are dangerous to oneself or those about them either. Such laws are created purely for revenues on the pretense that they will preserve ones rights and safety. Even those of compliance, regulating importers and manufactures. Been this way for most of the recent decades now. Seems most folks today "assume" EVERYTHING is built safe for them,... 'till a phone burns their fanny!!! Most "motorists" here in the states, would rather bicycles didn't even exist,... well, except for children under 12,... in their yard,... maybe.

Maintain thoughtful, considerate actions,... and such laws and regs would be unnecessary. Or hopefully reasonable.

Sunder said:

Testing pedelc laws are tougher, but still possible. There was a parliamentary paper that described how they did the testing. It includes excluding any power spikes while the speed of the wheel was changing.

Apparently there is a second ISO standard defining "continuous power" and they used this standard. (As I understand, it is referenced in en15194)

Click to expand...

Decided to read up that paper again. The exclusion of spikes was not in line with EN 15194, it was specific for that paper.

EN15194 requires that the test use the procedures outlined in ISO 60034-1, Duty Type S1.

Under that requirement, a motor held at > 250w +/- 2% cannot be thermally stable. The definition of thermally stable, is that the temperature rises less than 2* Kelvin within a "reasonable period", which is not defined.

Therefore, a reasonable test would be to have the motor output 260 watts for a "reasonable time". If the temperature does not vary more than 2*K, the motor fails.

Let's be honest. Ain't no build gonna pass that test.

It's output power measured, so every motor can be tested in a way to overheat at 250w output.

liveforphysics said:

It's output power measured, so every motor can be tested in a way to overheat at 250w output.

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Yup - but remember it's an excluding test, not an including test - so you can make it fail 100 ways, but if it passes 1, then it's non-compliant. (i.e. if it's a maximum continuous power, you only need one accepted test over its maximum to "fail" the device)

DRMousseau said:

My current beach cruiser system is "capable" of 40mph speeds and over 2000w of power. I adjust my controller amps and max speed and sometimes (rarely) the pedelic/throttle cutout. Speed is MOST apparent. And as long as I'm not burnin' rubber or poppin' wheelies at the light, than power would appear at a reasonable level of "safety"...

Click to expand...

Everything is fine with driving an electric motorcycle, as long as you do not call it a bicycle and ask for bicycle privileges, because a bicycle it isn't anymore.

Sunder said:

Apparently there is a second ISO standard defining "continuous power" and they used this standard. (As I understand, it is referenced in en15194)

Click to expand...

That test is defined in ISO 60034-1. Basically, it's to test for overheating. A 1000w motor will pass, since it won't overheat when running at 250w output.

It doesn't matter that a 250w motor will overheat at low speed. Part of the test is to determine its most efficient zone, then the over-heating test is done at that speed.

Cephalotus said:

DRMousseau said:

My current beach cruiser system is "capable" of 40mph speeds and over 2000w of power. I adjust my controller amps and max speed and sometimes (rarely) the pedelic/throttle cutout. Speed is MOST apparent. And as long as I'm not burnin' rubber or poppin' wheelies at the light, than power would appear at a reasonable level of "safety"...

Click to expand...

Everything is fine with driving an electric motorcycle, as long as you do not call it a bicycle and ask for bicycle privileges, because a bicycle it isn't anymore.

Click to expand...

If you're confusing Australian law (or any law) with morality or reality, my condolences.

Australias government used to use live humans as military machine gunner practice, and even had a taxed service for guided Aborigine hunting expeditions as late as 1967. They determined this was right and just through the same process they now tell you determines what is and isn't a bicycle.

The reality is quite simple, there are Ebikes with various acceleration rates and speed ranges. All of them are a huge step in the right direction for continued life on earth if they are actually getting used to meet a transportation need.

Get a 200 watt sticker from Heyna an ES member from the colony down under. Plus it has some rare. OZ humor in Chinese. Glad I can't read Chinese.

in the definition the motor is only there to assist, so you must be able to propel the bike by pedalling. If you have an over powered e-bike then always look like you are pedalling and not riding like a moped and you will be less likely to get pinged.

These compliance regulations jus seems silly, overly complicated, and really serves no perceived intended purpose,.... that being to regulate the actions of the operator in a specific manner.

An e-bike simply isn't a bicycle,... nor is it a motorcycle, and it's sorta like a moped, but not. It IS unique. And has unique variances in designs. But if the battery is dead, or not even on the e-bike,... then it's generally pedaled and used as a bicycle. If I have a 24V battery runnin' thru a 10A controller,... I'll have a 250w max system. If I run 57V at 40A,.. I'll peak over 2000W!!! Or till my light hubmotor melts down. Either system may be limited to 12mph,.... is there really a difference???

IMO,... I feel that regulations should be more directed at use, even if placed in a special class of vehicle. A golf car is the same whether gas or electric, and has specific rules of use. You can replace your 4-banger with a big block V-8,... still a motor vehicle, nothings changed. If your usin' your e-bike "like" a motorcycle at traffic speeds,.... then your use should be regulated as a motorcycle, and will probably necessitate added safety options, insurance, etc.. Same if used as a moped. And if your not exceeding typical bicycle usage, assisted or not, then why should you be restricted from sidewalks and other accepted bike paths and trails? Some powered and non-powered personal mobility devices are outright COMPLETELY BANNED in many areas,... not because of power ratings and speed, but because of the manner of use. I'd hate to see the same for e-bikes.