Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by John Bozi » Nov 09 2016 1:06am

ham there is no comparison when you can gear your bike for one particular bit. A mid drive will win hands down if there is not a fail of a component somewhere first.

This one from earlier this year might give you some perspective of part that kills 99% of hub motors.



Not sure where it happened, but it was pretty clear it had once it went more oval shaped. At the end of this vid it was apparent.


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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 09 2016 3:38am

Again, top videos, thanks.

Looks like the hub handles the hills ok? Although it looks slow...could it go faster up the hills?

I'd love to see vids like this of stealth/vector etc where they use much heavier duty rims and spokes
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 09 2016 12:27pm

Ham wrote:Again, top videos, thanks.

Looks like the hub handles the hills ok? Although it looks slow...could it go faster up the hills?

I'd love to see vids like this of stealth/vector'etc where they use much heavier duty rims and spokes
Yep, very slow rides. Grouse hunting speed, Id say :twisted:
Those trails are wide and pretty fair. The nicest sections I'd ride 40 to 50 Mph.

Building a good hub motor wheel for the mountain is not easy. One has to break a few before starting building them right. Motorcycle rims and tires are the easy (heavy) solution, but at the cost of considerable performance loss in braking and acceleration. I like spending the effort to build them reliable with bicycle components. I rebuild my wheels at the end of every riding season, but it is very rare that I have to lace one in the summer.

Rear wheel and suspension are the weak points of a hub build dirt bike, but once this is solved to achieve reliability it will ride a lot of mileage. The drive train is the weak point of mid drives. It does require very frequent attention when riding the mountain, and even carefully maintained it will fail pretty often under abuse.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 09 2016 4:41pm

Now see I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not:) Can your hub climb hills at 20-30mph? Genuinely interested as i can't seem to find any good comparisons which show hub vs mid on long hills and then showing temps etc after....

I've been abusing my 3220 set up for over 300 miles now...yes the first 100 were troubled with chain drops etc but for the past 200 + I have had no drive chain issues with the bike components....

Hub simplicity intrigues me so I'd love to ride out with one on an offroad adventure and see in real life what they are like...not having luck finding anyone round my way though which is why I ask
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by John Bozi » Nov 10 2016 3:24am

A hub motor can be built right easier than a drive train can be.

With todays FF and fins, you will find it hard to beat a hub motor in a race unless it's designed specifically to be incredibly slow windy and steep or with big jumps with technical stuff downhill.

Hubs tend to be heavier and as said before although they lose out in smaller sections they more than make it up in others.

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by atarijedi » Nov 10 2016 5:08am

spinningmagnets wrote:If I had a blank check right now, I'd get the Quilbix Q76R with the LightningRods big block on the swingarm at around 72V X 70A = 5000W. Still very quiet, and much more nimble than having the motor in the rear wheel...Just my opinion.
I'd be worried about smacking the motor on something, since it is hanging underneath the swing arm. For offroad that is.

I'd get a low turn, thick wire gauge, low kV hub motor, maybe QuanShun motors could use a thicker gauge for the wire, let you dump more current into it for higher torque. Then add FF and fins. Should be able to do hills quite nicely.

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 10 2016 6:03am

John Bozi wrote:A hub motor can be built right easier than a drive train can be.

With todays FF and fins, you will find it hard to beat a hub motor in a race unless it's designed specifically to be incredibly slow windy and steep or with big jumps with technical stuff downhill.

Hubs tend to be heavier and as said before although they lose out in smaller sections they more than make it up in others.

Much of my rides are on similar terrain to yours, with added mud rather than sand. You still ride a LR Mid drive don't you?

What is FF? I assumed something to do with a frock motor?!

Ferro Fluid?
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 10 2016 9:15am

Ham wrote:Now see I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not:) Can your hub climb hills at 20-30mph? Genuinely interested as i can't seem to find any good comparisons which show hub vs mid on long hills and then showing temps etc after....

I've been abusing my 3220 set up for over 300 miles now...yes the first 100 were troubled with chain drops etc but for the past 200 + I have had no drive chain issues with the bike components....

Hub simplicity intrigues me so I'd love to ride out with one on an offroad adventure and see in real life what they are like...not having luck finding anyone round my way though which is why I ask
This was not sarcastic, only a tad bragging. :wink:

I climb 10% at 45+ MPH for one mile and it is not hot. It is climbing very slow that is dangerous to overheat. The bike is very comfortable climbing short 30% sections, climbing stairs or taking a 3ft drop. 300 miles is what I ride in a fair summer week, sometimes much more. 80 Lbs bike with a 30+ Lbs hub motor fed 20 Kw, only a motorcycle mid drive could beat its overall performance but it would be very expansive to build it equal weight.

Powerful hub builds are not uncommon now. There is probable some ES member nearby who will be glad to let you try one. Check the ES member map, see the threads of those near your location, send a PM...
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 10 2016 10:45am

Well that's good to hear...now you must link me to your build or tell me about it?

I had no clue there was a member map...off to find it now: thank you
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 11 2016 9:14am

All members are not on that map.
If you'd indicate your location in your profile, we could probably recommend someone.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 11 2016 10:44am

I'm just South of London: I put up a thread about a meet up but no responses as yet...viewtopic.php?f=25&t=84674
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Builditgood » Nov 11 2016 7:42pm

Hello Ham. I live in Southampton and have a bike with a hub motor that you are more than welcome to ride. It is a shopper bike though so will not be a direct comparison to your tangent powered mtb. I laced the hub onto a 20inch rim and have powered it with a 14s 8ah lipo pack running through a 26a controller. I've also got a tangent clearing through customs at the moment so am looking forward to building that into a full sus frame.
shopper.jpg
shopper.jpg (59.66 KiB) Viewed 1991 times
Full sus specialized, tangent 3000w, 16ah 12s lipos.
Full sus yeti, cyclone 3000w, 12ah 72v lifepo4.
Folding shopper, 1000w hub in 20" rim.
DMR trailstar, 2000w hub in 17" moto rim, 21ah 50v lion.
DMR sidekick, gng 2015, 16ah 12s lipo.
Full sus giant, 2000w hub in 26" rim, 12ah 50v lifepo4.
Spare Divinci 6000w midrive waiting to be built into something!!

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by brumbrum » Nov 12 2016 5:14am

Ham wrote:I'm just South of London: I put up a thread about a meet up but no responses as yet...viewtopic.php?f=25&t=84674

Hi Ham, i am 2 hours down the M4 motorway in Cardiff and ride off road only in hilly terrain here in Wales. You would be welcome to come and try my cromotor ride. 6-9kw or lower if you want. Fully adustable with my adaptto controller.
Andrew.

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by John Bozi » Nov 12 2016 2:32pm

brumbrum wrote:
Ham wrote:I'm just South of London: I put up a thread about a meet up but no responses as yet...viewtopic.php?f=25&t=84674

Hi Ham, i am 2 hours down the M4 motorway in Cardiff and ride off road only in hilly terrain here in Wales. You would be welcome to come and try my cromotor ride. 6-9kw or lower if you want. Fully adustable with my adaptto controller.
Andrew.

Image

That sounds more like it. get your gopros out and have a race lol :)

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 12 2016 2:49pm

Builditgood wrote:Hello Ham. I live in Southampton and have a bike with a hub motor that you are more than welcome to ride. It is a shopper bike though so will not be a direct comparison to your tangent powered mtb. I laced the hub onto a 20inch rim and have powered it with a 14s 8ah lipo pack running through a 26a controller. I've also got a tangent clearing through customs at the moment so am looking forward to building that into a full sus frame.
shopper.jpg

Very kind offer thank you. Like you say, not quite a direct comparision but again, appreciated.

You'll love the Tangent...remember to share your thoughts and comparison :)
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 12 2016 2:52pm

brumbrum wrote:
Ham wrote:I'm just South of London: I put up a thread about a meet up but no responses as yet...viewtopic.php?f=25&t=84674

Hi Ham, i am 2 hours down the M4 motorway in Cardiff and ride off road only in hilly terrain here in Wales. You would be welcome to come and try my cromotor ride. 6-9kw or lower if you want. Fully adustable with my adaptto controller.
Andrew.

Image

That Sir is a thing of beauty right there! I may very well take you up on that, time permitting...I'll obviously bring my Tangent ride and we can swap and compare...maybe a video too.

How heavy is your set up?
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 12 2016 6:07pm

See, it didn't take long to find. ES is wonderfull.

That bike is pefect to ride the hills of Wales, even better fun than a Welsh pony I bet. :D
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by brumbrum » Nov 13 2016 3:42am

MadRhino wrote:See, it didn't take long to find. ES is wonderfull.

That bike is pefect to ride the hills of Wales, even better fun than a Welsh pony I bet. :D

Yes, but not as much fun as a welsh sheep :wink: :lol:



And to answer Ham's question, i have never actually weighed my bike. The battery is about 12-13kg, motor in 17" moto rim with 3" trials tyre is about 14kg, frame and swing arm is 6kg, So i am guessing about 40kg. I can pick it up and carry over obstacles when necessary, but its still a lump.

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 13 2016 12:11pm

Up the Amps BrumBrum

At 40 Kg fed 9 Kw, I'd be close to call it a Welsh back cow :mrgreen:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by brumbrum » Nov 13 2016 1:53pm

MadRhino wrote:Up the Amps BrumBrum

At 40 Kg fed 9 Kw, I'd be close to call it a Welsh back cow :mrgreen:
Haaah, i can out run all but the fastest of welsh cows...

My peak amps are at 110 on multistar lipos. Which is a little less than 4C discharge on my 30ah pack. Thats enough for me with phase amps up at 350 on the Adaptto. The 4s 10ah multistars are good for Upto 3C continuous draw. The torque/thrust at this level is enough, you then need to adjust PWR timing for mid speed acceleration and then OVS timing for extra top speed.

I could put phase upto 395 and maybe a little higher for peak amps :wink: , the cro quickly settles at around 75 amps and then drops to about 50 or so on flat.

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 13 2016 2:36pm

40kg is lighter than I was expecting...I'll bring the scales :)
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by brumbrum » Nov 13 2016 3:42pm

Ham wrote:40kg is lighter than I was expecting...I'll bring the scales :)
Yep, 40kg is a guesstimate, i have just never got around to weighing it. I'll have to dig out the house weighing scales. I'd be surprised if it was over 45kg for sure.

Fingers crossed for next weekend and we will be able to swap notes/bikes/opinions and experiences. Bring a go-pro or the like if you have one.

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by Ham » Nov 13 2016 6:30pm

Oh I'll certainly be bringing the camera...once I peel today's mud off it!
Resized.jpg
A little muddy out there at this time of year
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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 14 2016 9:38am

Looking ahead to hear comments from both of you. If I was closer I would travel to ride with you.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

Post by drew12345 » Nov 14 2016 10:07am

Ham wrote:Oh I'll certainly be bringing the camera...once I peel today's mud off it!
Resized.jpg
Looks like you had a lot fun. Someone should start a thread on who has the muddiest bike.

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