Did a search for this, but couldn't find anything. We marvel at the low cost of electricity for our systems, but how about battery expense? I've had two 36V batteries that basically expired precipitously after a year and 50 or so charge cycles. This equates to $8 or so per use. However my Luna battery is going strong after a year and they will be my go to place in the future as long as this battery keeps humming. Anyone else have positive or horror stories?
Battery Cost
- Thread starter 2old
- Start date
Been using a 14s1p pack of EIG NMC 20Ah cells, no BMS, since around 2011 on CB2 and for most of half a year's use of SBC, with only one cell failure in it so far, and no balancing needed on it just bulk charge; I push it to about 4C regularly on my commutes (a dozen times in 2.4 miles each way) for a few seconds at every start from a stop, though it's less than 1C for cruising the rest of the time. It often sits in the sun (Phoenix, AZ, so summers can be >115F ambient and direct sun >150F) for hours when I can't bring it inside work or wherever I am going to (or when I'm riding it). I'd call that pretty good performance so far. It still works about as well as new, and I don't see much, if any, capacity change since then.
A123 16s 1p 20AhEM3EV pack, with BMS, works about the same as when I got it used from another ES member back in mid-2013; been used much less than the EIG but same conditions and bike/trike, gets less range than the EIG does for about the same Wh; doesn't like the hard usage as much as the EIG, but it still performs about the same now as when I got it.
Used to have a Vpower pack (stolen from the shed after the housefire along with other stuff) and it sucked; it came to me in need of repair, but evne after fixing it never worked as well as it should even with it's reduced capabilites (and I gatehr it was problematic to it's previous owners as well). I think it was LiFePO4; can't remember it's capacity/etc., but I don't think it ever delivered what it was advertised as.
I have a small Luna pack sent to me for testing but it isn't actually capable of the specs it was advertised with (which is why it was sent to me), though it "can" provide the current advertised the voltage sag and heat are excessive. I haven't used it enough yet to tell if it will survive long-term (I seriously doubt it would if used at the advertised limits).
No other long-term usage info except for SLA stuff and a little NiMH for a while.
A123 16s 1p 20AhEM3EV pack, with BMS, works about the same as when I got it used from another ES member back in mid-2013; been used much less than the EIG but same conditions and bike/trike, gets less range than the EIG does for about the same Wh; doesn't like the hard usage as much as the EIG, but it still performs about the same now as when I got it.
Used to have a Vpower pack (stolen from the shed after the housefire along with other stuff) and it sucked; it came to me in need of repair, but evne after fixing it never worked as well as it should even with it's reduced capabilites (and I gatehr it was problematic to it's previous owners as well). I think it was LiFePO4; can't remember it's capacity/etc., but I don't think it ever delivered what it was advertised as.
I have a small Luna pack sent to me for testing but it isn't actually capable of the specs it was advertised with (which is why it was sent to me), though it "can" provide the current advertised the voltage sag and heat are excessive. I haven't used it enough yet to tell if it will survive long-term (I seriously doubt it would if used at the advertised limits).
No other long-term usage info except for SLA stuff and a little NiMH for a while.
Sunder
10 MW
I used HK Turnigy batteries for 3 years, around 2-3 times a week. I got rid of them because they sagged, not because their capacity was low - It was still 85-90% of new.
Quality batteries, designed right, and looked after should give you 3-5 years of 5 day a week use.
Quality batteries, designed right, and looked after should give you 3-5 years of 5 day a week use.
wesnewell
100 GW
Finally replaced my 10ah 24s2p pack after 4+ years and over 15K miles on them. Still had ~90% capacity, but did sag more. I had bought a replacement pack about 6 months earlier when they were on sale for $180. Rewired some of the old ones for 10ah 7s packs and replaced the crappy sla batts on my ups with the old lipo battery packs. And they work great in the ups's.
dogman dan
1 PW
It's definitely clear, that the cheaper (quality, not price) the battery the higher it's cost. That's why "lead is dead". But it also applies to a very good battery that is over stressed by the c rate of the discharge.
It's quite possible you had too small a size battery, for the type of cell used insides C rate. And I mean the real c rate, not whatever fantasy they wrote on the label.
It's quite possible you had too small a size battery, for the type of cell used insides C rate. And I mean the real c rate, not whatever fantasy they wrote on the label.
JTL
10 W
No question about it, good batteries are expensive. Lunacycle sells a lot of batteries, like most products some people like them and some don't. I would suggest that you check out em3ev. They get very good reviews for their build quality.
Voltron
1 MW
Hopefully in 5 years you will be able to get a box of cells from your local Tesla dealer, and then just stick them in reach of your automated Makerbot-like spot welder/assembler/triangle case printer for a custom pack on any bike you have. Oh yeah, don't forget to order the laser de-tabber accessory for cell repalcement later.. 
Thats the future I want to live in anyway...
Thats the future I want to live in anyway...
Thanks for the replies. I'm pretty sure the reseller was " taken for a ride" by his supplier or attempted to save a few bucks by being too cheap. Only had a 15 amp controller and didn't abuse the system. The big OEM guys (including BionX) seem to have resolved the issue since they provide two-three year warranties. I have a Haibike so I'll find out.
Voltron
1 MW
Do you have a Bosch version or Yamaha? If its the Bosch, def get the neoprene battery condom if its wet out. I have two Bosch batteries that got a few drops of water in, that corroded out the BMS thru small gaps in the conformal coating, killing them both. That seam between the two halves of the shell seems just tight enough to let a few drops in, then trap it in there... and its a $900 battery!
Thanks for the advice. I have the Yahama, and we couldn't find water with a divining rod in socal, so probably not too much to worry about. So far (with limited on road miles) it uses only about one percent of the battery per mile in the "eco" setting (assuming the display, which shows remaining battery life in hours, is accurate).
Voltron
1 MW
Yes the Yamaha seems better sealed... but those Bosch batteries died in sunny Santa Barbara in a misty rain. It sure didn't take a week long downpour!
Hillhater
100 TW
Voltron said:Hopefully in 5 years you will be able to get a box of cells from your local Tesla dealer, ...
You forget.....Tesla dont have a "dealership" retail philosophy !.....
...so you will still have to order online....
....and they will only sell to you if you own one of their vehicles. ,...!
.....and UPS will still drop/lose/ damage them before you can build that pack ! :lol:
(NOTE.:- Tesla wont sell any spare parts to individuals who are not registered owners or authorised repairers)
Voltron
1 MW
I was talking the future imaginary Tesla battery store that will be in every mall... not the current reality based Tesla.
Hillhater
100 TW
sure, but like current Tesla "mall stores", and many other general stores in the future, they wont actually have any stock, just take order and delivery details for delivery from central distribution centers !
infact , its entirely possible that the Mall of the future will just be a virtual space, on line .!
..but then again, we probably wont need batteries...we will have wireless power transmission direct to the motor .! 
:wink:
infact , its entirely possible that the Mall of the future will just be a virtual space, on line .!
..but then again, we probably wont need batteries...we will have wireless power transmission direct to the motor .!
:wink:Battery life depends on many factors. Charge rate, discharge rate, cells used, BMS used, temps reached, etc. If you have some quality cells in a battery and use it within it's limits it should last 3 years at least.
I suggest doing lots of research into cells.
I suggest doing lots of research into cells.
dogman dan
1 PW
8 years ago I was believing the hype, "lithium is going to cost half that of lead". I was dreaming of the day the kids electric car toys would go lifepo4, and then you could just go to any walmart and pick up a 12v 10 ah brick for 25 bucks.
Dream on Dan,,,, The only thing that has happened, is lead got almost as expensive as lithium. :lol:
12v 10 ah from hobby king is not much more than 40 bucks though. But not safe enough compared to lead to put in the kid toys.
Most of my commuters have come in fairly cheap for just the battery, under 20 cents a mile.
My allcell pack cost me about 600,, its now sitting at about 15 cents a mile.
My cheapo alibabba pack is sitting at about 13 cents a mile.
Both of those should get better by the time they die. I expect the allcell will be getting weak next summer.
Those are guesstimates. I don't track miles anymore, but historically I ride about 2000 street miles a year minimum.
Nothing is ever going to beat that first ping battery. Bought when he was selling at cost more or less, to get started. That one was 6.5 cents a mile. The second ping I beat harder, and then it sat in the garage for a couple years, while I thought I was dying. It cost 27 cents a mile. I rode it a year before I got sick. So when it died, I only had about 2000 miles on it.
Lipo is different for me. I use lipo off road. I ride about 500 miles a year on trails, but the packs get beat on very hard. Both physical damage, and lots of high amps. I get about 2 good years out of a pack, that costs around $250-300 depending on the type of cell.
So at best, 25 cents a mile from my lipos. But after they are done on the dirt bikes, they do serve another year at least, if not two, mowing my lawn. Or they might still be good for a few miles range on a very long street ride. If I built a large pack like Wes does, and rode only street, then I would get similar low cost results like he does. But I just bounce those things up and down trails till they puff up.
Dream on Dan,,,,
The only thing that has happened, is lead got almost as expensive as lithium. :lol: 12v 10 ah from hobby king is not much more than 40 bucks though. But not safe enough compared to lead to put in the kid toys.
Most of my commuters have come in fairly cheap for just the battery, under 20 cents a mile.
My allcell pack cost me about 600,, its now sitting at about 15 cents a mile.
My cheapo alibabba pack is sitting at about 13 cents a mile.
Both of those should get better by the time they die. I expect the allcell will be getting weak next summer.
Those are guesstimates. I don't track miles anymore, but historically I ride about 2000 street miles a year minimum.
Nothing is ever going to beat that first ping battery. Bought when he was selling at cost more or less, to get started. That one was 6.5 cents a mile. The second ping I beat harder, and then it sat in the garage for a couple years, while I thought I was dying. It cost 27 cents a mile. I rode it a year before I got sick. So when it died, I only had about 2000 miles on it.
Lipo is different for me. I use lipo off road. I ride about 500 miles a year on trails, but the packs get beat on very hard. Both physical damage, and lots of high amps. I get about 2 good years out of a pack, that costs around $250-300 depending on the type of cell.
So at best, 25 cents a mile from my lipos. But after they are done on the dirt bikes, they do serve another year at least, if not two, mowing my lawn. Or they might still be good for a few miles range on a very long street ride. If I built a large pack like Wes does, and rode only street, then I would get similar low cost results like he does. But I just bounce those things up and down trails till they puff up.
LewTwo
1 MW
For E Bikes yes but due to the weight more than anything else. SLAs still have their place (i.e. attached to my UPS). For longevity nothing beats edison cells but again the weight is prohibitive for motor vehicles.dogman dan said:
dogman dan
1 PW
Depends on how you use the lead. On a bike, 12 ah cells, 6 months then they start to degrade badly is typical, if you run them farther than 5 miles per charge at 20 mph.
How do I know this? I work for a company that sells a crapton of lead every year. But yes,, if you really lug around enough lead, it can last a very long time.
Did I not just say.... the same results occur with lithium packs if you carry around more? FWIW,,, I now carry 30 ah of 48v lithium on my bike. that would weigh what in lead? 120 pounds? I'm carrying about 25 pounds of lithium, in the hope that it will last 4 years, instead of 3.
How do I know this? I work for a company that sells a crapton of lead every year. But yes,, if you really lug around enough lead, it can last a very long time.
Did I not just say.... the same results occur with lithium packs if you carry around more? FWIW,,, I now carry 30 ah of 48v lithium on my bike. that would weigh what in lead? 120 pounds? I'm carrying about 25 pounds of lithium, in the hope that it will last 4 years, instead of 3.
wesnewell
100 GW
I can drive my king cab truck for 25 miles on a gallon of gas. At $2.50 a gallon, that's 10 cents per mile. At last fill up gas was $1.67 a gallon. so <7 cents per mile. Anyone paying 10 cents per mile for ebike fuel is just throwing money away. After 4+ years and 15K+ miles I replaced my ebike battery with a new 888wh 10ah 88.8V pack that cost $217 shipped. So that's <2 cents per mile, And I'm still using the old batteries, so who's to say how many more miles I could have gotten from them. I just lmao when i see what most/some people here pay for their battery packs. And most are for weak ass 18650's or lifepo4 packs that sag like my wifes teats.
helpfulguy
10 W
That's about half price compared to Europe, which might make things more understandable.wesnewell said:
http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/
Samd
10 MW
Amberwolf I think I know the pack you speak of. Its an 18650GA pack in a 2p config fitted with a 30a continuous BMS and 50a peak. GA should never have a chance to run at 25a peaks.
I don't think you can classify all of a vendor's packs as good. If the vendor isn't very good at matching BMS to the cell chemistry its gonna be a patchy outcome.
I don't think you can classify all of a vendor's packs as good. If the vendor isn't very good at matching BMS to the cell chemistry its gonna be a patchy outcome.
If you search threads I started about battery packs there's one about testing that pack. I think it has the vendor name in the title.
I do remember it's a 4p pack, but I don't remember what cells it has in there, but there's a link in there (first post?) that points to an archived version of the vendor page for it. It isn't in their current offerings so they could've changed how they match cells to BMS by now.
I do remember it's a 4p pack, but I don't remember what cells it has in there, but there's a link in there (first post?) that points to an archived version of the vendor page for it. It isn't in their current offerings so they could've changed how they match cells to BMS by now.
wesnewell said:
Sorry to hear about the wife's knockers.
Best cost efficiency I have seen
I have had the best longevity from Ping packs that were properly loaded... ie, pulling 22amps from a 20ah ping. If you do not overload them, they have incredible longevity.
Despite the initial cost, I think they provide the best bang for the buck so long as you know they are not suitable for hotrodding. Anyone should be able to get these to 5 cents a mile.
Worst deal on the market.
I have had the worst longevity from Zippy 8.4ah LifePo4 bricks sold by hobby king. They have a high c rating, but it is a fantasy. After maybe 50 charge cycles they are only good for a bout 5ah. I use them now in pairs as starter batteries for some of my gas powered toys. I think I gave up on using these in an ebike near the $1 per mile mark!!!
Similar threads
