Help me choose the best battery!

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Pinesal   100 W

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 28 2016 1:00am

Sunder wrote:Does your existing SLAs have a charger? Or did your old blown LiPo have a charger? If so, we can reuse that.

If the voltage isn't perfect though, we will need a BMS to cut charging when it's full.
I still have the charger from the old lifpo4 pack. It's charges to 60v. I have the sla charger that charges to 59v according to the label.
Alan B wrote:The lead batteries sag so much that a lithium pack with lower nominal voltage may outperform it.

52V nom is 14 of the 3.7V cells which is not a good number for lipo bricks nor for chargers. 6S is a more common, cost effective value for chargers and bricks.

44V nominal is a more practical value for lipo. You could use 6, 6, and 2S bricks to get 14 if it is really necessary but it will cost a bit more and require more wiring.

For 18650 packs with a BMS and bulk charger, the 14S is not as difficult. Some vendors call these 50V packs while others call them 52V packs, it depends on the manufacturer's cell ratings being 3.6V or 3.7V nominal.
I'm don't know what these 2s 6s 14s numbers refer to.

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by wesnewell » Dec 28 2016 1:04am

Pinesal wrote:I'm don't know what these 2s 6s 14s numbers refer to.
then start here.
http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html
http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

Pinesal   100 W

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 28 2016 11:43am

wesnewell wrote:
Pinesal wrote:I'm don't know what these 2s 6s 14s numbers refer to.
then start here.
http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html
http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html

Thank you for that. I see that it refers to the number of cells.

But I also learned that this type of battery has few charge cycles. Is this really the best chemistry?

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 28 2016 12:21pm

You are best off with a plug and play battery. There are many out there. A quality pack made with name brand cell like Samsung 25r. Something with high quality cells to make 20ah. If they don't tell what cell is being used is probably no name Chinese genetic.
Look at Em3ev, Luna cycle ect. Make to get a battery that can more than able to do the job. Less stress.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by fechter » Dec 28 2016 2:22pm

Pinesal wrote:
Thank you for that. I see that it refers to the number of cells.

But I also learned that this type of battery has few charge cycles. Is this really the best chemistry?
Maybe in terms of power output/cost.

Personally I wouldn't use Lipo. Too dangerous. While any battery has potential to start a fire, Lipo batteries have by far the worst track record for this. A good quality Li-ion will cost more to start with, but over the life of the pack may be less expensive than other types.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Pinesal   100 W

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 28 2016 3:35pm

fechter wrote:
Pinesal wrote:
Thank you for that. I see that it refers to the number of cells.

But I also learned that this type of battery has few charge cycles. Is this really the best chemistry?
Maybe in terms of power output/cost.

Personally I wouldn't use Lipo. Too dangerous. While any battery has potential to start a fire, Lipo batteries have by far the worst track record for this. A good quality Li-ion will cost more to start with, but over the life of the pack may be less expensive than other types.
Yes, that is my understanding.

So far, that original Lunacycle battery I posted seems to be the best option.

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by wesnewell » Dec 28 2016 4:34pm

Pinesal wrote:But I also learned that this type of battery has few charge cycles. Is this really the best chemistry?
Yeah, if you discharge them at close to max rate, that's true. but discharge at a low rate like you would with an ebike, they'll last a long time. And the newer graphene type are supposed to last a lot longer still. I got over 15K miles and 4+ years out of my 10ah 24s pack, and only replaced it because I had bought 2 more packs that were just sitting around for almost a year. I'm still using the old cells to replace sla batteries in my ups's. I expect they'll last another 5 years in them. When I got into this everyone was hyping lifepo4. I went with rc lipo after a lot of research. Now everyone's hyping 18650's. I wouldn't touch them except for my flashlights. Nothing comes close to the power and performance of rc lipo at the price. Nothing. Been waiting 6 years for it and it hasn't happened yet.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

Pinesal   100 W

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 28 2016 5:14pm

eTrike wrote:Have you checked the dimensions to ensure the triangle pack will fit in your scooter frame?
I will have to measures, the perfect place for a battery is under the seat.

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Alan B » Dec 28 2016 9:00pm

The Zero motorcycle battery modules are a candidate if you want the best. Luke used them on a few of his bike builds.

Electric car modules are very good, a scooter might be able to handle them.They are designed for safety, this takes additional space and weight that may be too much for an ebike, but a scooter has more room and weight capacity.

The requirements for this battery aren't clear and they are not all in one place, they are spread throughout this thread. I would suggest you need to collect your requirements and budget in one posting, preferably the first in the thread, and be more specific about the max current.

Most RC or ebike batteries are not rated for unattended charging. People do it, but the manufacturer doesn't permit it. Most chargers are not rated for unattended charging either.

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by LewTwo » Dec 29 2016 2:29am

fechter wrote: A good quality Li-ion will cost more to start with ...
They are ALL Li-ion (lithium ion). They cells vary in chemistry, construction and format. I believe that you were probably referring to a 18650 cell which has a full metal case (I really wanted to write 'full metal jacket'). The chemistry varies for these as well.
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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Builditgood » Dec 29 2016 5:10am

Hi Wes. I too prefer lipos for the same reasons as what you have listed but the problem I've found with my limited experience is charging. Having to do all the unplugging and changing around to put them on the balance charger is a pain. I'm currently running 14s1p lipo and might go up to 2p. I understand I could get a bms, bulk charge or parallel charge but I'm wondering what is the best way forward. Thanks
Full sus specialized, tangent 3000w, 16ah 12s lipos.
Full sus yeti, cyclone 3000w, 12ah 72v lifepo4.
Folding shopper, 1000w hub in 20" rim.
DMR trailstar, 2000w hub in 17" moto rim, 21ah 50v lion.
DMR sidekick, gng 2015, 16ah 12s lipo.
Full sus giant, 2000w hub in 26" rim, 12ah 50v lifepo4.
Spare Divinci 6000w midrive waiting to be built into something!!

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Builditgood » Dec 29 2016 10:33am

thanks etrike. i'll look into health checking my batteries. what do you mean about alarms please - doesn't the charger cutoff when the pack is up to voltage? is it necessary to keep the drain rate down as low as 0.3c? my current build is rated at 50a continuous and 80a peak, to get 0.3c wouldn't i need a 167ah pack?!
thanks again
Full sus specialized, tangent 3000w, 16ah 12s lipos.
Full sus yeti, cyclone 3000w, 12ah 72v lifepo4.
Folding shopper, 1000w hub in 20" rim.
DMR trailstar, 2000w hub in 17" moto rim, 21ah 50v lion.
DMR sidekick, gng 2015, 16ah 12s lipo.
Full sus giant, 2000w hub in 26" rim, 12ah 50v lifepo4.
Spare Divinci 6000w midrive waiting to be built into something!!

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Alan B » Dec 29 2016 10:43am

Alarms are for discharge and low cell voltage.

Discharge rates for Lipo up to around 1/3 of their continuous RC ratings is generally fine. For example on the 10C Multistars a discharge rate of around 3C should be fine.

I find balance charging on Lipos to be required very rarely. Perhaps once per year. Bulk charging to 4.15 gives 50 millivolts of room before hitting 4.2V on any cell group. It takes a very long time for a good Lipo pack to drift even 30 millivolts.

A tool like the Battery Medic can be used during bulk charging and at other times to check the balance and determine when another balance charge is needed. On a newly configured pack check it at the start and end of the bulk charge cycle every day, after some confidence in the pack is learned one can back off to something like once a week. If anything unusual occurs then remeasure right away and monitor closely for a few cycles. Unusual events include a deeper than usual discharge, a crash, a controller failure, extreme temperatures, etc.

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by wesnewell » Dec 29 2016 10:56am

Builditgood wrote:Hi Wes. I too prefer lipos for the same reasons as what you have listed but the problem I've found with my limited experience is charging. Having to do all the unplugging and changing around to put them on the balance charger is a pain. I'm currently running 14s1p lipo and might go up to 2p. I understand I could get a bms, bulk charge or parallel charge but I'm wondering what is the best way forward. Thanks
Well, I bought a couple of 24s bms's about a year ago but haven't used them yet, and may never. For the longest time I split the 10ah 24s pack into for a 20ah 12s pack and used a balance charger on them. But for the last year maybe, I just bulk charge them with a 100.8V charger. Sometimes I plug in battery medics to balance them at the top. Sometimes I don't. That makes for real simple charging.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

Pinesal   100 W

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 29 2016 11:53am

Alan B wrote:The Zero motorcycle battery modules are a candidate if you want the best. Luke used them on a few of his bike builds.

Electric car modules are very good, a scooter might be able to handle them.They are designed for safety, this takes additional space and weight that may be too much for an ebike, but a scooter has more room and weight capacity.

The requirements for this battery aren't clear and they are not all in one place, they are spread throughout this thread. I would suggest you need to collect your requirements and budget in one posting, preferably the first in the thread, and be more specific about the max current.

Most RC or ebike batteries are not rated for unattended charging. People do it, but the manufacturer doesn't permit it. Most chargers are not rated for unattended charging either.
OK here goes.

48v minimum, up to 54v preferred.
Safety is important the bike will charge overnight unattended.
Hope to not have remove the battery from the bike to charge.
Minimum 10 miles per charge at 20-23 mph, 20 miles at 25 mph preferred (little to no pedal assist)
reliable vendor.
I don't have tools and equipment to build my own so that cost will need to be considered if building versus buying a ready pack.
$500-$700 price range.

Also :!: <--- that kind of looks like a butt.

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Alan B » Dec 29 2016 11:59am

Do you have the requirements for continuous amps and amp hours that you need?

Pinesal   100 W

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 29 2016 1:38pm

Alan B wrote:Do you have the requirements for continuous amps and amp hours that you need?
No, I am not educated enough to know. Also the controller on the bike itself offers no real information an neither does the supplier.

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by wesnewell » Dec 29 2016 2:15pm

On a typical 48V 1000W kit you will get ~28 mph wot on 12s lipo. To get 20 miles at 25 mph requires ~30wh per mile, so you need a 600wh battery in perfect conditions. 16ah of 12s is 710.4wh. So get a 900W 50.4V bulk charger, 2 battery medics and a charge the whole battery in under an hour. There's no need to charge overnight. Now that matches all your requirements for under $500. Buy smart and you can probably get it for under $400 if you can catch the batteries on sale, with the charger and battery medics being a one time charge. Batteries alone would be ~$250 for 2 16ah 6s packs not on sale. Sometimes they go on sale for half price, but this is normal price. There are so many ways to do what you want for under $500 it would take me a year to write about all them.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 29 2016 3:41pm

wesnewell wrote:On a typical 48V 1000W kit you will get ~28 mph wot on 12s lipo. To get 20 miles at 25 mph requires ~30wh per mile, so you need a 600wh battery in perfect conditions. 16ah of 12s is 710.4wh. So get a 900W 50.4V bulk charger, 2 battery medics and a charge the whole battery in under an hour. There's no need to charge overnight. Now that matches all your requirements for under $500. Buy smart and you can probably get it for under $400 if you can catch the batteries on sale, with the charger and battery medics being a one time charge. Batteries alone would be ~$250 for 2 16ah 6s packs not on sale. Sometimes they go on sale for half price, but this is normal price. There are so many ways to do what you want for under $500 it would take me a year to write about all them.

I am trying to find all the stuff you just talked about. I stumbled on this, not exactly what you meant but looks like a pretty good deal. What do you think? https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-fligh ... -pack.html I think I would need 8 of these.

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by ddk » Dec 29 2016 3:59pm

Pinesal wrote:... I stumbled on this, not exactly what you meant but looks like a pretty good deal. What do you think? https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-fligh ... -pack.html I think I would need 8 of these.
These are on sale at $71.xx and represent a better battery than the zippy.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html
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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by heavymetalthunder » Dec 29 2016 4:13pm

I use LIPOs in my RC hobby so if you go the route of LIPOs, I would buy then at HobbyKing or Nitroplanes. I normally use 6 to 8 5000 MAH 6s batteries wired to 12S. In the future I plan to go to a 100000mah 6s 30c. The minimum 20C rating, better at 30C. To make Lipos last you will have to get a decent charger/balancer. A 320W 4 station charger will the minimum (80watt per station) for ease of charging. I recommend you buy separate power supply at least a 30 amp 12v power supply (not a regular car charger). As I am very much involved in the RC Hobby and at times charge a lot of large batteries, I personally use three 400watt two station charger, hooked up to a 60amp 12v power supply.

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Alan B » Dec 29 2016 4:23pm

You don't really need more than one battery medic, you can just touch it to the connector and take a reading on each half. Don't leave them connected for long periods of time as they can unbalance the pack, I just touch it to the connector to take a reading and not wear out the connector.

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Pinesal » Dec 29 2016 4:54pm

ddk wrote:
Pinesal wrote:... I stumbled on this, not exactly what you meant but looks like a pretty good deal. What do you think? https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-fligh ... -pack.html I think I would need 8 of these.
These are on sale at $71.xx and represent a better battery than the zippy.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html

A very good deal but would only give me 44.4volts.

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by wesnewell » Dec 29 2016 5:21pm

They're crappy lifepo4 packs. This is just a couple of examples of hundreds of choices.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Help me choose the best battery!

Post by Alan B » Dec 29 2016 5:59pm

I have a couple of Zippy LiFePO4 packs. They all puffed under light load. They still work, but under heavy load are saggy.

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