Winter quad tilter build started

Wheazel

Wheazel

10 kW
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
970
Location
Sundsvall, Sweden
So after a delay of approx half a year due to jobsituation and stuff, I am now trying to push this project forward.
This will be a second bike with the same approach and purpose as my retired winter trike. (avatar pic)

The reason I am going for 4wheels this time is to reduce the number of tracks in the snow.
After riding the trike alot over three winters I realized that avoiding obstacles with 3 tracks can be tricky.

I have collected alot of stuff for it over the past year or so. Rims, hubs, tyres, tubing, some electronics (no controller yet tho)
Still debating what motor route I will go.

The build will basically start with 3d printing the steer spindles in aluminum to get the tricky angles correct.
The bike will be built in a combination of aluminum and chromo. Might also 3dprint some suitable parts in fiber reinforced nylon.
I might use the battery "briefcase" from my old trike, but might build a new battery as well. Both options have pros and cons.

I am aiming to have it ready for the coming winter.
Should give me 10 months or so. Will only be able to work on it sporadically

And hopefully it will be out of the box enough to be interesting to read about and maybe spark other's ideas.

Bild%20styrspindel_zps3arala9e.jpg
 
I'd be interested especially in seeing hte tilting aspects, as someday I'd like to make my SB Cruiser type of delta trike a tilter, if an uncomplicated method of doing that, which is also capable of very heavy loads, and doesnt' take away the cargo area, can be adapted out of it. :)
 
Amberwolf,

I have had the same Idea in the back of my mind , for off in the future when I want to ride lower and more feet forward,
My Idea is to make a very long and somewhat lower version of the old Honda Gyro Scooter .....http://www.motorscooterguide.net/Honda/Gyro/Gyro.html

http://automotoclassicsale.com/sites/default/files/ebay_322266760173_4.jpg

Wheazel,

Since you are going to be making a Quad, does it really need to be a lean design ?
You could have independent suspension on all four wheels . ( double wishbone design ) and have a rear drive like some race cars , where you drive both back wheels , while each independently has suspension (can't think of the name of it right now) .

http://ggquad.com/Photos/GG%20Quad%20-%20Rear%20suspension.jpg

http://www.autoblog.nl/gallery/0_Coachbuilders/LusoMotors/LM23/LusoMotors_LM23_039.jpg

http://www.britishracecar.com/BillBovenizer-Titan-MkIII/BillBovenizer-Titan-MkIII-DG.jpg

Ok found a link to a tilting quad bike ..

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/16/c5/e8/16c5e8dda2a9b54393e01c612940f66f.jpg

http://ggquad.com/Photos/GG%20Quad%20-%20Rear%20suspension.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/37/39/59/373959ee0f9f16ef807c0fcfdf87ae7d.jpg
 
Yes a tilter is 100% mandatory.
The main reason is that the track width needs to be kept narrow for the bike to not be unpractical or even unusable wintertime.
I have like 10 years of winter cycling experience combined, both manual mtb with spike tyres and the winter trike.

There will always be obstacles, narrow passages, bad slowplowing, times when I have to ride on a car road etc.
With a track width around 50cm, the base is approx as wide as the rider. It is still not as nimble as a two wheeled bike, and there will sometimes be obstacles that can be problematic,
but they are very few and the massive safety gain, makes it well worth the tradeoff. With the wintertrike it was possible to drive recklessly even on black ice.
The tyres both front and rear could be skidding left and right, but since the front wheels cant just disappear under you, it was manageable. A tilter also handles leaning planes and bumps smoothly.

The braking potential on very slippery surfaces with two front tyres should not be underestimated either. Its a major difference.
Building a non-tilting 50cm wide four wheeler would look stupid and drive stupid.
 
I'd keep the front just wide enough to squeeze through car traffic. :wink: I guess just a tad under what an average handlebar length would be. Maybe more for sharper turns so the front tires won't hit them? Not unless your not riding with them. Then go wide!
 
Wheazel,

Ok, I understand now, I did not know you wanted such a narrow width.
I was thinking more of very wide tires for traction in snow.
More like an electric ATV or a Cross between a Bicycle and Snowmobile.
With front fairing and windscreen like a Snowmobile.
I lived in Sweden just during the Summer Months , so thinking about the weather the other 9 months of the year, for myself I would need wind protection.
There is a very big reason I do not move to Sweden/Norway , and that is the weather. Living in California I have it so easy.
Anyway
Your idea will be very unique, I only found one other example of a leaning 4 wheel bicycle.
When you do make it , perhaps you could make a few extra parts and sell them.
or sell a Frame Kit.
 
Its a compromise (as always) with how wide the vehicle should be.
50cm allows for some suspension travel without moving the wheels too much sideways.
Would I go any narrower, a construction like the EV4 would need to be used.
The winter trike proved the front chassis concept to me at least, as I did use it far more than I first intended.

The drive of the rear wheels will be a motor in the frame, driving a jackshaft with a samagaga differential.
I was thinking to use the revolt motor I have on a shelf, but after seeing Larsb's thread about rewinding the revolt 120pro, I realized how bad copperfill it has.
So unless I also rewind my revolt, I will use some other more efficient motor. Preferably quiet.

Maybe a bht? Have no experience with those.
 
I am currently printing a few parts for the front in aluminum, and will most likely get the spindles done over the weekend.
So I am starting to think more about the complete design and not just focusing on the critical front.

I have realized that it would help a lot if I can find a motor that is narrow enough to fit between the pedal arms.
This will make the installation more compact. On a narrow width four wheeler like this, the steering travel is limited.
So not making the wheelbase longer than required is important for maneuverability.

I am happily taking more suggestions on motor.
It needs to be quiet. I have a 1500W leaf hub that potentially could be used, but it is slower than intended.
I will have the opportunity to gear in both directions with two stages to the rear wheels (motor - jackshaft - wheels), but I would like to avoid large chain rings.

Maybe a smaller lower power hub motor with higher kv?
I did contact the french site selling the bht motors, and they had a 1000W with cosmetic damage on a sidecover.
This is interesting, but it still is borderline too wide.

Overall the motor doesn't need to be very big/strong. I am guessing it will see 1,5-2kw peak. And most riding between 300-1000W
 
How wide is too wide ?

A Mac front hub, where you take the 6 bolt holes for the disc brake, and instead of a disc rotor ,
drill 6 holes into a sprocket/chainring and then bolt that sprocket/chainring up to the motor ?

Also

Not sure how strong 6 threaded bolts would be for drive train torque,
or
If you would have to go into motor housing drill out those 6 bolts holes a little bigger and use bolts through the inside to outside , bolts with small heads like a carriage bolt , with the nuts on the outside . ( nylocc nuts )
 
Those quad or tad pole type tilters are cool. I have never ridden a recumbant.
Whats the reasoning for the tilting action, just to grip the road better on corners I assume.
 
Moves COG over so that it is just like leaning a bike. If you don't do that in a turn, then you can't go around the turn as fast as you could otherwise, or you'll flip over.

There are some exceptions, like with my SB Cruiser trike I can break the rear wheels loose in a turn to basically drift around it, and almost go around a corner as fast as I could on CrazyBike2. But I can't quite go as fast, and still ahve to slow down from 20MPH, which means that in some cases a car that's right behind me that doesnt' think he has to slow down might run me over or at best graze the rear of the trike. Hasnt' happened yet, but there've been a couple of close calls; odds are that someday it will.
 
The main reason for the tilt is exactly as AW describes.
You tilt the vehicle to have the projected cog in the middle or close to the middle of the track width.
It is basically as riding a regular bicycle.
When the cog moves outside the vehicle base (in this case a rectangle drawn between the 4 wheel's contact points), is when the vehicle falls over.

For a wide trike with a large base, tilting would not be needed. (A car does not need tilting to stay upright for example).
For this design, tilting will be needed, especially because much riding will occur on slippery surfaces.
A sideways slip of the front tires can not cause the cog to move outside the vehicle base, unless its a massive slip which is almost impossible to achieve.
This is the real danger when riding a two wheel bike on very slippery surfaces. Once the front wheel skid sideways, you probably are already falling over.

By using the best spike tyres on two wheeled bikes, you can still be quite safe. As you have a low but predictable grip, even during bad road conditions.
But with my experiences of the winter trike, compared to my spike tyre mtb's, I have felt the major difference in safety.
This is why I am going through all this and not just electrify a mtb with the best spike tyres. Its different leagues.
 
The first parts for the steering/tilting assembly are built.
It is the bearing holding parts over and under the spindle.

Pictured are two of the four. They are all individuals.
Typical example of when making the parts by hand is tricky as the angles need to be correct.

The 8mm holes are under dimensioned on purpose because the correct size will be drilled later.

Steering%20parts%201_zpsp2wju55z.jpg
 
Steering spindles are done as well, and they need to be polished and support structure removed inside the holes.
The idea is to weld aluminum axles into the spindle. The chamfered holes are to get good welds on the axles.
20mm wheel axle, and 15mm spindle axle. Should be enough according to my rough calcs.

The interface for the disc brakes need to be threaded. I pulled the measurements off the internet for the caliper mounting, as I dont have the brakes yet.
I will have to use the calipers on the opposed sides from intended due to the spindle geometry and mounting possibilities.

It will be interesting to see if the real world assembly is correct when it comes to that point.
Next up might be some parts for the rear wheel axle bearings, unless I make them from tubes. The arms for the front will be built with chromo tubing.
steering%20spindle_small_zpsa7rpix1q.jpg
 
Fūck, i wish i could have MLS at home. Probably in 5 years it will be possible.
How much did you paid for making these
 
This build I will follow for sure, I had a great time following your very-long-john build and you have mad fabricating skills so I am sure we are in for a treat here. Btw did you ever make a build thread for the trike? That is a cool bike too, would not mind reading more about that as well, so put in a link if you got.

As motor is yet to be decided, may I suggest hi power 4WD with torque vectoring and studded tires for insane winter fun :twisted:
 
macribs said:
This build I will follow for sure, I had a great time following your very-long-john build and you have mad fabricating skills so I am sure we are in for a treat here. Btw did you ever make a build thread for the trike? That is a cool bike too, would not mind reading more about that as well, so put in a link if you got.

As motor is yet to be decided, may I suggest hi power 4WD with torque vectoring and studded tires for insane winter fun :twisted:
Click to expand...

Haha you wish, I think I have settled on using the 1500W leaf after all.
I'll probably keep the spokeholes, as the motor might see other use in the future.
The downside is the weight of course, but I will have to live with that as the gearing gets very easy with such a low rpm motor.

Torque should also be excellent. No plan to make anything exciting here, only cheap and safe transportation.
Will gear for something like 50km/h top speed, and as usual riding will happen between 20-40km/h most of the time.

The winter trike have no thread unfortunately. Its no rocket science so you will have to do with this one.
 
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