Illegal #EBikes

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by amberwolf » Jan 27 2017 3:07pm

Easy to ban bikes. Impossible to ban celphones. (enforcement is hard so why bother? :()

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Blue Ice Bike » Jan 27 2017 4:54pm

As long as people ride reasonably I don't see why riding an ebike will ever be confiscated as long as it looks like a bicycle.

People riding around on illegal looking frankenstien bikes are ruining it for everyone.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by dustNbone » Jan 27 2017 5:24pm

The difference is NYC is specifically targeting all ebikes, they've made a point of it, and dedicate resources to achieve it. They're clearly trained police officers to spot them in the crowd, pull them over and confiscate their bike. There is no recourse for the rider as far as I can see. It's electric, you were riding it, it's gone. You don't have to do anything stupid at all, just ride your bike in that city and eventually you will get nailed.

This is in contrast to where I live, and I'm guessing most other civilized places, where you probably do have to break an ACTUAL law to even have them look twice at your bike. And even if they do, there are still legal ebikes here, 500W and 32kph or something. To ascertain that you were in violation of those regulations requires some kind of testing, which they are not likely to be qualified to perform. So unless you actually injure someone, or get clocked going considerably faster than 32 by a cop that actually gives a crap, you're unlikely to suffer confiscation or even fines.

NYC has a blanket ban, which streamlines the process of confiscation considerably. It's an ugly law, way too broad and unfortunately way too easy to enforce.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by markz » Jan 27 2017 5:35pm

I'd just keep riding, not like a beat cop on foot or a cop car can get you.
Maybe a bike cop if they are around, even then it'd be hard for them to get up to, maintain or gain on a person on an ebike.

Its so easy to be distracted by traffic and pedestrians while riding that if you were to get pinched just act dumb.

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 27 2017 10:11pm

dustNbone wrote:The difference is NYC is specifically targeting all ebikes, they've made a point of it, and dedicate resources to achieve it. They're clearly trained police officers to spot them in the crowd, pull them over and confiscate their bike. There is no recourse for the rider as far as I can see. It's electric, you were riding it, it's gone. You don't have to do anything stupid at all, just ride your bike in that city and eventually you will get nailed.

This is in contrast to where I live, and I'm guessing most other civilized places, where you probably do have to break an ACTUAL law to even have them look twice at your bike. And even if they do, there are still legal ebikes here, 500W and 32kph or something. To ascertain that you were in violation of those regulations requires some kind of testing, which they are not likely to be qualified to perform. So unless you actually injure someone, or get clocked going considerably faster than 32 by a cop that actually gives a crap, you're unlikely to suffer confiscation or even fines.

NYC has a blanket ban, which streamlines the process of confiscation considerably. It's an ugly law, way too broad and unfortunately way too easy to enforce.
I have a BBSHD, and I'm moving to NYC as of first this of July 2017.... I'm not sure, but I think my BBSHD might not be stealthy enough to go unoticed by NYPD cops. I don't want my money and labor investment seized just because NYC say they have the right to do wathever they think they can do, taking away my hard earned bike and making me pay a 1000$ fine on top of that !!! WTF New York ??? Just because of Lappin's stupid Laws and her greedyness for cab money ?

Has anybody heard about the Vivax motor ??? It's supposed to be around 150-200 W, but it's completely invisible. Good thing!!! They are so stealthy, NYPD cops will not be able to detect them. Too bad for them ; good news for us.
The only problem is those are around 3000 Euros.... For just 150-200 W !!! But the motor is in the seat post tube.

Here's the vivax motor seen running at aound 110-120 RPM at the pedal cranck (on Vivax website they say optimal output is 60 rpm, maximum 90rpm assist) :


Mini motor :



See through seatpost view :




Some more details (just ignore the guy talking about cheating... It's all about commuting IMO, I don't need that guy's judgment and could'nt care less about what he thinks) :



My point is, I think there could be a real market for these in New York City, especially if they could make 500W, 750W motors like this... And there is still a lot of empty unused space leftover in that seatpost because that 200W motor is so compact. And it's a MIDRIVE... Meaning you can TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL YOUR REAR AND FRONT GEARS for speed or acceleration !!! Just imagine... you want crazy tork, just dial in front derailler to granny gear AND rear derailler to granny gear. You want to speed ??? Just work your way up through the gears, ending up on the biggest diameter front chainring and the smallest rear cassette gear.... Way more efficient way to use your available watts !!

Guys, If somebody can design a 500W or 750W motor like this (but a bit longer though the same diameter) to fit in the seat post, and make eBike VIRTUALLY UNDETECTABLE, that guy would become very very rich !!!
I would gladly spend 1000+ $ on a 750W kit like this (just to avoid paying NYC cabs, subways, bus). Just sell these online, NYC will be full of them tomorrow !

To be honest, I'd really like to know how much mechanical power it's possible to cram into that empty seatpost free space ... What do you think ? Stealthiness for up to ?____? watts...
NYS laws on eBikes suck. It's been a long time since the electric bike technology superseded the laws of NYC. Time to build stealthy eBike with a Vivax-like (but more powerfull) type of mid-drive motors. NYPD cops won't understand anything LOL !!!

Oh, and I'd get a proper backpack battery, attached to the motor through cables with quick disconect (anderson's for exemple, just in case I fall off the bike), wired entering through the seat post just under the saddle.
Last edited by Matador on Jan 28 2017 9:01am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by markz » Jan 27 2017 11:23pm

Just buy a and average sized direct drive motor in the 1000W or 1500W range for the rear hub and throw on some oversized pannier bags.

OP - No need to go ultra-stealthy like that.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 27 2017 11:41pm

markz wrote:Just buy a and average sized direct drive motor in the 1000W or 1500W range for the rear hub and throw on some oversized pannier bags.

OP - No need to go ultra-stealthy like that.
Right. The thing is I already invested about 2000 canadian dollars on a BBSHD. So i'm stuck with the mid-drive excrescence at the bottom bracket, but I love the feeling of a mid drive.
I might just risk it in New York, But I don't plan to go any higher than 20mph anyways with the crazy traffic they have in Manhattan. Probably mor like 15-18 mph...

If only they made 750W Vivax or even 500W Vivax, it would be great. If I was an engeneer, I would work on that... all the seatpost tube taken by the motor for the best possible power output.... Maybe even with oversized bike tubes, we could go bigger... Aluminium frame could also help a tiny bit with heat dissipation...

I've checked again on the Vivax website: at this time, they are 150W continous and 200W "peak" (whatever peaks means for them...). that's not enough.

Anyways, just saying... If some company start making "500W or 750W vivax like motor" they'll get a lot of clients in NYC. This city is begging for citizen to use bikes and aleviate car traffic.
I'll buy.
Maybe Lunacycle could start making their own "Vixax"-inspired ultrastealthy seat-tube mid-drive motor kits, lets, say 750 or 500W or even 350W.... But 150W is simply not enough.... Good for maybe 10-12 mph top speed on throttle alone... Might as well pedal instead.

Also, even though I've bought two locks (Kryptonite New York Fahgettaboudit Mini U-Lock & Kryptonite New York Legend 1515 chain and padlock), I'm afraid of theives. Theives can see that precious BBSHD and "go cordless grinder" method of stealing on my eBike (But it'll probably take them a few of fully charged makita pack to achieve double cuts on the 18mm diameter tempered steel U-Lock Shack and double cuts on the 1515 tempered 15mm chain ring). Plan to epoxy ball bearings in every hex allen key bolt there is to make thieve's live miserable.

Anyways, the Vivax system doesn't attract attention. Mount it in a good old used steel frame-12 speed road bike that don't attract attention and lock it close to a more pretty looking bike, and nobody knows that the bike is worth much much more than 100$. Less chance of getting stolen with a proper lock.
Last edited by Matador on Jan 28 2017 9:40am, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 27 2017 11:59pm

The max you can get out of a Gruber assist or Vivax is 250w. Try more and you kill it in a day. It is very expansive for the power that it is capable, its only advantage is to be the stealthiest out there.

Building a similar system would be pretty expansive too, and unlikely to survive more power. In New York or other places where ebikes are prohibited, I would use a hub motor hidden by big panniers. A touring bike with lots of luggage is not suspect to the police, as long as it doesn't fly 50 Mph. :lol:
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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 28 2017 12:07am

Right, the answers i hear from you guys make a lot of sense. I'm just fantasizing on the stealthyness of that Vivax thingy. Makes me think I'm in a James Bond Movie or something. I also doubt that the Vivax could survive much more power than 250W without significantly adding more copper mass and cooling capability. Maybe 750W is way too high of a goal to acheive for such types of small and concealed motors... but maybe they could do 350W or even 500W...
Last edited by Matador on Jan 28 2017 9:43am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 28 2017 12:19am

You would need to build a cooled seat tube, and a bigger one too, and a better pinion BB drive....
Even 250w is not for warm days right now with those in-tube motors. Unless you have lots of budget and time, you´d be better looking at other solutions.
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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 28 2017 12:33am

MadRhino wrote:You would need to build a cooled seat tube, and a bigger one too, and a better pinion BB drive....
Even 250w is not for warm days right now with those in-tube motors. Unless you have lots of budget and time, you´d be better looking at other solutions.
Thank for your inputs on this subject... I wish there was other options than to put big bulky and ugly oversized paniers.... Keeping wind drag to the minimum.

Ducted fans on both end of the seat post tube could help with the cooling issues though ...
I wound'nt think that a Peltier device would be of any use for coooling (my mind is just twisted LOL)... Very low efficiency, extremely high energy cost, bulky with those radiators ans not suited for high wattages application.
Last edited by Matador on Jan 28 2017 9:44am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by MadRhino » Jan 28 2017 12:51am

Well, 50cc scooters are legal in New York, aren't they ?

Convert a Honda Rukus to electric, it will be stealth enough to melt in the mass.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by dogman dan » Jan 28 2017 7:44am

If the cops are on such a crusade, and grab e bikes from riders who are doing nothing wrong, what is Ykick's secret? His bikes are not as stealth as a vivax, and he seems to have no issues with cops, yet he's rode there for years.

I suspect his secret is not hauling ass down sidewalks looking like a whacko sandwich delivery rider. Or other stuff, like upstream on the one way, ignoring stop lights, riding like the messengers.

Of course,, cops don't look twice at me either,, because I look all old and harmless. It does help.

Re the Honda rukus,, If I had one, I'd just ride it as is. But going legal is an option you know. If it's got two wheels, I'm a happy camper.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 28 2017 8:22am

dogman dan wrote:If the cops are on such a crusade, and grab e bikes from riders who are doing nothing wrong, what is Ykick's secret? His bikes are not as stealth as a vivax, and he seems to have no issues with cops, yet he's rode there for years.

I suspect his secret is not hauling ass down sidewalks looking like a whacko sandwich delivery rider. Or other stuff, like upstream on the one way, ignoring stop lights, riding like the messengers.

Of course,, cops don't look twice at me either,, because I look all old and harmless. It does help.

Re the Honda rukus,, If I had one, I'd just ride it as is. But going legal is an option you know. If it's got two wheels, I'm a happy camper.

I'm in my mid thirthies, and I'll have (and will enjoy) to ride to work in a building on Upper East Side Manhattan starting from July.
I just want to go to work with my BBSHD, backpack lithium battery and lock my bike in a safe place every day. I really don't plan one riding all crazy like a bike messenger. I'd be happy with an 10-12 mph average speed inside Manhattan (not bad considering all the stop and lights).
This is not "Premium Rush Movie". I don't think most eBiker plan to ride like this guy in Manhattan (big "earmuffs" and no helmet ! WTH ?).


This goes to show... You can be just as much dangerous or even more dangerous on a regular "pedal bike" than on an ebike. Just look at this bike messager !!! "Wooo, I don't need electric motor, I can just hang on to cars and heavy trucks in motion to get up to 30-40 mph speeds instead".?!?!?!... And they say eBikers are wreckless ??? Sure NYC, cut the crap with this bullshit please, you are loosing all your credibility with that kind of speach.

So what's your secret Ykick ? Any other people have experience with cops on manhattan or in NYC ?
Last edited by Matador on Feb 04 2017 8:05am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Ianhill » Jan 28 2017 8:27am

I've never rode in city like areas or I would have to rethink my ride to respect the public, I find theres people pushing to stop plain old pedal bikes tearing up on footpaths, mountains and wear ever they maybe, a nuisance as they call it and destroying the countryside. But then the forestry commision have chopped half the Forrest down using heavy plant machines and made more mess than I could ever make with 100 scooters + so they all hypocrites, My next ride will be at least 84v 20ah or maybe 96v so they won't keep me down electric pitbike hear I come.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by markz » Jan 28 2017 3:53pm

Crazy riding, I love how he holds the truck strap down and his feet are moving fast on his single speed pedals. One open door and say hello to the E.R. and I.C.U.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 28 2017 9:43pm

For bike promoting innovations (like bicycle superhighways), I think NYC is standing waaay behind many other great cities the world... I think many people there still think petrol/fossil fuel engines are the future for the planet LOL. This stuff is getting very old and boring, but hey USA elected Trump, so nothing surprises me anymore...

Awsome bike innovations :

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by dogman dan » Jan 29 2017 6:54am

I've often wondered if certain areas of cities such as Manhattan, central Tokyo, etc, aren't ready to put the cars in the basement. Build a new, wider, sidewalk over the streets. The buildings would need new second story entrances of course.

Then the cars, busses and trucks could have the streets, with just a tiny strip of light shining through the holes in the center of the upper deck.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by drewjet » Jan 29 2017 7:06am

Here is an idea. Build a bike to look as much as a franken Ebike can look wires everywhere, duct tape fake batteries, etc..., but strip the guts out of the motor, no actual battery on board. Then ride like an idiot and get it confiscated. Then Sue the shit out of the police department, You have made enough money to retire and get the hell out of that God forsaken city.

Anybody does this, I claim 10% of the lawsuit!

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 29 2017 8:35am

drewjet wrote:Here is an idea. Build a bike to look as much as a franken Ebike can look wires everywhere, duct tape fake batteries, etc..., but strip the guts out of the motor, no actual battery on board. Then ride like an idiot and get it confiscated. Then Sue the shit out of the police department, You have made enough money to retire and get the hell out of that God forsaken city.

Anybody does this, I claim 10% of the lawsuit!
Yes, but I'm not sure it'd be that easy to win. The cop would argue that he had "reasonable cause" to suspect it was an eBike to stop you, give you a fine and seize your eBike. Anyways, I don't care that much for that money. Time is more precious than cash. I enjoy bike and ebikes, and I want the planet to ride with us. So much obesity problems in the united states (eg Houston, Texas). A little biking might help the situation, especially with inviting infrastructures for it. :mrgreen:

We have to start taking care of this planet earth, like it's talking care of us. But we are so entrenched in our own little problems and obsession with money that most of us don't ralise that... It takes a lot of perspective to see this "Endless-Sphere" in a holistic manner. We'd have to physically distance ourselves from the planet Earth to help us realise how lucky we are to live on it. Raising awareness/conscioussness of what it's doing for us. The astronauts get this feeling a lot on long missions, They call it "the overview effect". I get this feeling most of the times when I go for a Cessa152 flight. :



For now it seems eBikes and electric vehicule technology went from being adopted by "enthousiasts" and "visionairs/early adoptors" to starting to be adopted by the pragmatic majority constituting the mainstream market segment (who represent two thirds of the market) : first the "Pragmatists" then it will be the "Conservators" (late in the game as usual). The "skeptics" are still far far away from it's adoption. But more and more, eV and eBikes will become mainstream, as we already see (for example with the Tesla cars and all those eBikes --> Funy to say, but China is already way ahead in the game compared to USA when it comes to eBikes and eScooter numbers in the circulation !)...

Some city in the world are already very well equipped with infrasctuctures capable to recieve additionnal users ot this "new" and evolving technology, especially in Europe (Netherlands, London, Germany, France, Danmark...). New York City is still not well adapted to it and will be very late in the game, as usual. One of NYC's most striking evidence of this "resistance to change" toward's the better/more sustainable approaches is this Stupid Law making eBike "illegal".

Intersting document where they talk about "Markateing NewSpace and The Overview Effect" (p13) : http://overviewinstitute.org/images/overvieweffect.pdf

Anyways... We still have that mentality in america. The old crap seems to be here to stay. Like many of our old crappy and slow trains. High speed trains exist in USA, but they are not common at all. In europe and Asia they are everyhere! Often with SERVICE speeds often well over 300 km/h : InterCity-Epress (Germany), TGV (France), Railjet (Austria), EuroStar, Frecciarossa (Italy), Shinkansen (Japan), Shanghai TransRapid (China) with Cruise Service Speed of 432 km/h, and dozens of others high speed train lines.

Tease :
Last edited by Matador on Jan 29 2017 10:10am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by DrkAngel » Jan 29 2017 9:28am

DrkAngel wrote:The Electric Bicycle Bill has been sitting before the New York State lawmakers since the beginning of the Century.
But never passed!
Do not blame the Assembly!!!
The Bill passes the Assembly ... unanimously! ... almost every year.


2001-2002
A00091 Summary:
BILL:A00091DDATE:05/30/2002MOTION: YEA/NAY:138/0

2003-2004
A00588 Votes:
BILL:A00588 DATE:03/31/2003MOTION: YEA/NAY:147/0
BILL:A00588 DATE:03/08/2004MOTION: YEA/NAY:144/0

2005-2006
A00071 Votes:
BILL:A00071 DATE:05/02/2005MOTION: YEA/NAY:138/0
BILL:A00071 DATE:01/17/2006MOTION: YEA/NAY:135/0

2007-2008
A00189 Votes:
BILL:A00189 DATE:02/26/2007MOTION: YEA/NAY:136/0
BILL:A00189 DATE:01/23/2008MOTION: YEA/NAY:140/1

2009-2010
A02393 Votes:
BILL:A02393 DATE:03/02/2009MOTION: YEA/NAY:127/1
BILL:A02393 DATE:02/22/2010MOTION: YEA/NAY:145/0

2011-2012
BILL:A01350 DATE:03/07/2011MOTION: YEA/NAY:129/5
BILL:A01350 DATE:01/23/2012MOTION: YEA/NAY:136/4

Every single year ... the State Senate kills, or allows the bill to die!

Why?
Such a disparity of, unanimous support from the Assembly vs continued Senate rejection, is confusing ... to say the least ...
Legal eBike use in NYS has been attempting-awaiting legality since the beginning of the century.
Strangely, it has been approved, often unanimously in the State Assembly, most every year, but died in the Senate, every year until once when it failed to reach a vote in the Assembly. Did pass in the Senate once.

NYS congress is notorious for getting nothing done!

It will take a concerted effort of prodding congressmen to push the Bill through both Houses in the same year!

New York State citizens only ...
Finding your Senator
Finding your Assemblymen

This Sessions version of eBike Bill

Senate Bill S2888
2017-2018 Legislative Session

Defines the term electric assisted bicycle


Assembly Bill A1018
2017-2018 Legislative Session

Defines the term electric assisted bicycle

Bills limit eBikes to 750w and 20mph ... helmet use required!

See long term thread -NYS eBike Bill
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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Matador » Jan 29 2017 12:50pm

Thanks for the thread link DarkAngel. I went on the NY Senate website per you link to see the actual and preview bills.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bi ... t/original
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2017/A1018

The billed passed the Senate last year right ? ( https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1048989 )
Doesn't that mean eBikes are now legal, so as long as they comply with the bill ???

But when I go on the NY Dept of Motor Vehicle, they state you cannot REGISTER or OPERATE eBikes, and can get arrested for it : https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/motoriz ... d-new-york

Did I miss something here ?

Which law superseeds the other ???

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by DrkAngel » Jan 29 2017 1:34pm

Matador wrote:The billed passed the Senate last year right ? ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27651&start=75#p1048989 )
Doesn't that mean eBikes are now legal, so as long as they comply with the bill ???
Bill must pass the Senate and pass in the Assembly and then be signed into Law by the Governor ... must occur in the same year.

If not completed, must start all over again, from scratch!
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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by markz » Jan 29 2017 3:54pm

dogman dan wrote:I've often wondered if certain areas of cities such as Manhattan, central Tokyo, etc, aren't ready to put the cars in the basement. Build a new, wider, sidewalk over the streets. The buildings would need new second story entrances of course.

Then the cars, busses and trucks could have the streets, with just a tiny strip of light shining through the holes in the center of the upper deck.

Brazil closes down the upper road once a week and everyone uses it. Cities in NA should do the same.
Calgary only has one "pedestrian" street closed off most of the day, Stephen Avenue which is really 8th Avenue downtown. We also have a +15's, where there are pedestrian "bridges" from building to building on the second level. One street, 7th Avenue downtown is the train, so only city vehicles allowed.

Toronto was going to implement a Toll road, but I heard last night they scrapped it. I think they should have implemented it, they would gain $300M I think it was, every year. Calgary has had a ring road for awhile now, only issue is the native land and enviromentaly sensitive area around the resevoir. But the plans are moving ahead, huge shopping area will be developed and maybe a 3rd indian casino where you see no natives working in.

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Re: Illegal #EBikes

Post by Ossian11 » Jan 30 2017 8:47am

It is okay for a 17 year old to drive a 400 hp car without speed limit on the german autobahns, but e-bikes are limited to 18 miles and 250 Watts... It is absolutely obvious that e-bikes are a thread to the automobile industry cluster, all these rules are simply ridicoulus.. Think about it: For every 100 miles I ride on my Moke, I do NOT consume fossil oils (hurting the oil industry), I do NOT pay for parking (hurting the city budget), I do NOT consume parts of a car (hurting the car mechanics and tire companies), I do NOT pay road taxes (hurting the federal budget), I do NOT pay insurance (hurting the finance industry), I do NOT have to have a garage (hurting the construction and real estate business)...

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