MAC Front Hub Motor Road Bike Build

Hey guys, I have been doing a lot of reading the past few weeks and I think I've determined the best complete system for me. However, this is my first build so please feel free to tell me if I've got something wrong or if there's a better or less expensive component/option/etc. I weigh about 175lbs.

Goal: Inexpensive, simple, help up hills as steep as 10%, 20mph+ on flat road without peddling, 15+ mi range

In an effort to achieve goal #1, I plan to order everything from bmsbattery since they have low prices and I don't want to pay for shipping from 2 different Chinese suppliers. I know that their support sucks.


Build

Bike: 93 Trek 1200 aluminum 700c road bike with CrMo front fork, drop handle bars, and downtube shifters
Motor: MAC 16T Front Hub Motor, http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=50_36&product_id=56
Battery: 48v 14.5Ah 5P13S Panasonic NCR18650PF in Case 08, https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/819-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
Controller: Integrated into battery case, 18-20A sine wave, same as the one in this package https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
Throttle: Thumb, same as the one in this package https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
PAS: 8 pole, same as the one in this package https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
Wiring: Motor wire and splitter harness, same as the ones in this package https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
LCD: S-LCD3, same as the one in this package https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
E-Brake: HWBS, https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor-1pcs-parts.html
Torque Arms: Front 12mm pair, https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm-parts.html
Motor Pigtail: 9-Pin, https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/439-a-pair-of-9pin-waterproof-male-female-connector-cable-for-motor-parts.html

The 260 climbs about as well as the 201.
The Ku63 is rather crude. Why not go w/ a 48V battery w/ the intergrated sine Wave Controller? I believe it would solve all your connector worries among other things.
You will need a ebrake cut if you use PAS and you should use PAS. Here is a nice set of levers;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371130585862?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
You will also need a torque arm and a spoke wrench.
Also, consider the left-hand half-twist throttle. The half-twist is much better than the thumb and since you will not use the left side(chain ring)shifter w/the motor system, the left side is the best place for the throttle.

You left one very important factor out of you description: Your weight.
For light weight, low power system there is a world of performance difference between a 150 rider and a 250 pound rider.

Brake switches: I never use them but I do not use PAS either.
Throttle location: Every other vehicle in the world puts the throttle on the right. Consistency is next to Godliness. However a case can be made for putting the throttle on your dominate side for finer control. Eventually you will develop 'muscle memory' for whichever side you put it on. I went to a lot of trouble to move my shifter to the left side ... where it belongs (occasionally I even use it).
Thumb vs Twist: I have used both. These days I use thumb throttles because I find they are less hassle to install or replace. (full disclosure: I have a twist throttle I plan to try ... but only because it has a built in voltmeter)
Connectors: I got most of my kit from BMS as well. Best I remember I got all the connectors that I needed. The exception may be for the power connector. For those I prefer XT-60.
Wire: I use silicon insulated 14 GA fine strand coper wire for power (probably over kill) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CUKRN8A

For an alternative to a multimeter see the top of page three of this thread.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85565&start=50

motomech said:

The 260 climbs about as well as the 201.
The Ku63 is rather crude. Why not go w/ a 48V battery w/ the intergrated sine Wave Controller? I believe it would solve all your connector worries among other things.
You will need a ebrake cut if you use PAS and you should use PAS. Here is a nice set of levers;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371130585862?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
You will also need a torque arm and a spoke wrench.
Also, consider the left-hand half-twist throttle. The half-twist is much better than the thumb and since you will not use the left side(chain ring)shifter w/the motor system, the left side is the best place for the throttle.

Click to expand...

I was hoping that you'd respond .

Do you think that the ebikes.ca torque curves for Outrider_Std and MXUS FX07 accurately represent the 260 and 201, respectively? It looks like only 1 N-m difference in torque between the 2.

Based on this thread it seemed like the S06S couldn't handle 48v - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57715
Based on this thread BMS has a new version that can handle 48v - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80049
Can anyone confirm if the integrated, standalone, or both controllers can handle 48v? The thread above seems to be regarding the standalone.
Integrated - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/668-36v-s06s-sine-wave-integrated-controller-for-new-bottle-case-ebike-kit.html
Standalone - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/546-s06s-250w-torque-simulation-sine-wave-controller-ebike-kit.html

I would prefer to use throttle only for simplicity. Do you recommend PAS just for the sine wave controller? I have drop handlebars so I would probably get a HWBS sensor if I needed ebrake, I assume this one would work - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor-1pcs-parts.html

I plan to order the front dual M12 torque arms - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm-parts.html

Good call on the spoke wrench, I'll add one to my order - https://bmsbattery.com/bicycle-parts/511-spoke-wrench-bicycle-parts.html

I don't think I could make the twist throttle work on the drop bars and I have downtube shifters but I do usually use my right hand to shift and the rear shifter is on the RH side. I will try to mount the thumb throttle on the LH side.

LewTwo said:

You left one very important factor out of you description: Your weight.
For light weight, low power system there is a world of performance difference between a 150 rider and a 250 pound rider.

Brake switches: I never use them but I do not use PAS either.
Throttle location: Every other vehicle in the world puts the throttle on the right. Consistency is next to Godliness. However a case can be made for putting the throttle on your dominate side for finer control. Eventually you will develop 'muscle memory' for whichever side you put it on. I went to a lot of trouble to move my shifter to the left side ... where it belongs (occasionally I even use it).
Thumb vs Twist: I have used both. These days I use thumb throttles because I find they are less hassle to install or replace. (full disclosure: I have a twist throttle I plan to try ... but only because it has a built in voltmeter)
Connectors: I got most of my kit from BMS as well. Best I remember I got all the connectors that I needed. The exception may be for the power connector. For those I prefer XT-60.
Wire: I use silicon insulated 14 GA fine strand coper wire for power (probably over kill) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CUKRN8A

For an alternative to a multimeter see the top of page three of this thread.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85565&start=50

Click to expand...

Good point, I'm about 175lbs. I added this to the OP.

My RH side is dominant. This will be my first ebike so maybe I can develop good LH throttle muscle memory from the start since I primarily use my RH to shift.

Was the motor cable long enough to reach the controller? The Case-08 description says that no cable comes from the battery pack and the charger uses a 3-pin XLR so that's why I'm guessing I'll need one of those, and I will need something on the other end of that power wire that connects to the controller connectors. I guess I could cut off whatever's on the controller and replace with whatever I like. Is that what you do with the XT-60?

14AWG seems right to me since I could be using up to 15A and I use 14AWG romex in my house for 15A outlets. Although I'm not sure how AC vs DC affects this and I'm guessing the wires in the motor and controller aren't 14AWG.

Those inline voltmeters could be a good option. I could get the thumb throttle with voltmeter but it looks a little cheap and the install wouldn't be as clean.

d

Was the motor cable long enough to reach the controller?

Click to expand...

Yes but I did not have far to go. See the bike in my signature thread.

The Case-08 description says that no cable comes from the battery pack and the charger uses a 3-pin XLR so that's why I'm guessing I'll need one of those

Click to expand...

I had a custom battery pack built elsewhere. Can not tell from either the pictures or the description but looks very much like a Shark Battery pack. In that case no cable ... you will need to do some soldering (I also have a Shark pack). Yes that is where I use the XT-60 connectors. I have standardized on those on my battery packs, chargers and meters to allow a little flexibility about what is used where. Not that I have that many but the connectors are small and I can not forsee ever needing something more for my application.

14AWG seems right to me since I could be using up to 15A and I use 14AWG romex in my house for 15A outlets.

Click to expand...

It is bit different but it is still based on resistance and the allowable voltage drop for a given distance. If I remember correctly I was using 36 volts, 5 feet (x 2), 21 amps and 2% drop.
Reference:
http://www.glanglerforum.com/forum/showthread.php?12639-DIY-How-to-determine-wire-size-applications
http://www.judiwa.com/2010/10/14/wire-gauge-resistance-and-voltage-drop-calculation/

By the way that spoke wrench you have listed is <expletive removed>.
I prefer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0028N57NM (there are three sizes)
or this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0060ZCN40

Do you think that the ebikes.ca torque curves for Outrider_Std and MXUS FX07 accurately represent the 260 and 201, respectively? It looks like only 1 N-m difference in torque between the 2.

Click to expand...

Yes they are, but the sim. doesn't tell the whole story.
The iron clad rule for all hub motors, but especially relevant for minis is;
Never, never allow the climbing speed fall below 1/2 of the top speed! At that point, the motor is producing more heat than forward motion and the motor is at great risk. To that end, a rough guide would be the 201 could dig down to 10 or maybe 9 mph, while it would be time to get off and push @ 11 or 12 mph on the 260.
It's hard to quantify "how steep" a hill is, but I have ridden w/ both mini's and the only hill I couldn't make it up were steep enough that walking, I would probably have my hands on my knees and taking a "breather" at some point. That and not being able to get a run at it. If you can hit it at top speed, the momentum will carry one a couple of hundred yards up I imagine there may be a few hills in Seattle that would be tough and you might have to rethink your route. If you are going to have to negociate long, steep hills, then you should be thinking a larger motor.

Based on this thread it seemed like the S06S couldn't handle 48v - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57715
Based on this thread BMS has a new version that can handle 48v - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80049
Can anyone confirm if the integrated, standalone, or both controllers can handle 48v? The thread above seems to be regarding the standalone.
Integrated - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/668-36 ... e-kit.html
Standalone - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/546-s0 ... e-kit.html

Click to expand...

I think the new SO6S can handle 48V, but I'm not sure(D8veh would know) and there is a 48V version on Alibaba.

I would prefer to use throttle only for simplicity.

Click to expand...

So you don't intend to pedal? It's almost impossible to intergrate pedal power to motor power on throttle alone, really, only w/ the the throttle pegged can it be done. Before I woke up and activated my PAS, I would set the cruise and the desired speed range w/the speed limiter and pedal along. That worked well enough on long straights where I was not interrupted. But now, w/ PAS and a half-twist throttle, I have defeated the cruise.
You want simple, go w/this low cost controller(that can be shunt modd;ed to 18 Amps);
http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-48V-250W-14A-6FET-ebike-Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Motor-Controller-with-LED-/222373438955?var=&hash=item33c67d65eb:m:mgxcwDHTuIgK4sxrLPhfyrQ
The beauty of a low-powered Q100 system is that it is easy to have a smooth PAS experience, even w/ a simple square wave controller and a 3-speed limiting display. There isn't enough power that the motor wants to "lunge" when the PAS is activated and the speed range is narrow enough that there are no major gaps even w/ only 3 speeds.

I don't think I could make the twist throttle work on the drop bars and I have downtube shifters but I do usually use my right hand to shift and the rear shifter is on the RH side. I will try to mount the thumb throttle on the LH side.

Click to expand...

Another really good reason you need PAS. A thumb throttle on drop bars will be murder.

My RH side is dominant. This will be my first ebike so maybe I can develop good LH throttle muscle memory from the start since I primarily use my RH to shift.

Click to expand...

No "muscle memory" required. One adapts imediately and w/out thinking about it. No one here has ever come back and said; "You know, I just couldn't adapt to a l. hand throttle.".
Unless you go with the intergrated controller/battery and coil extra lengths of wire, you will have to solder. The small signal wires are a piece of cake, but the silicone power wires can be difficult. I have found XT60 connector very hard to solder(maybe it's just me) and use 4 mm bullets to join lengths. These can be installed using a torch and are so much easier IMO.
Get the BMS Battery spoke wrench, it's cheap and the best style.
And try not to fett over the details so much. If you are like most of us here, you probably will change some things at a later date.
Unless you are pro-active, flat tire might be your biggest prob. Try and allocate funds for flat resistant tires like the Schwable Marathons.
And if you go with the 260 on 48V, you are going to have to address the gearing to pedal along @ 20 plus mph.

motomech said:

I have found XT60 connector very hard to solder(maybe it's just me) and use 4 mm bullets to join lengths.

Click to expand...

I had problems with my first ones as well. Then I got a Weller solder gun that can apply lots of heat to a small area quickly --- much easier.

motomech said:

It's almost impossible to intergrate pedal power to motor power on throttle alone, really, only w/ the the throttle pegged can it be done.

Click to expand...

So I should stop pedaling

Did you see this battery pack.
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
It does have bit smaller capacity and it does cost a bit more but the price includes the 48 volt sine wave controller and cables.

48V11.6Ah Case-08 Bottle Panasonic Battery Pack
Panasonic NCR18650PF battery pack
48V 11.6Ah
18A sine wave controller inside
One S-LCD3
One Thumb throttle
A pair of Brake Grip
One PAS
Waterproof Easy Assemble Wires

motomech said:

Do you think that the ebikes.ca torque curves for Outrider_Std and MXUS FX07 accurately represent the 260 and 201, respectively? It looks like only 1 N-m difference in torque between the 2.

Click to expand...

Yes they are, but the sim. doesn't tell the whole story.
The iron clad rule for all hub motors, but especially relevant for minis is;
Never, never allow the climbing speed fall below 1/2 of the top speed! At that point, the motor is producing more heat than forward motion and the motor is at great risk. To that end, a rough guide would be the 201 could dig down to 10 or maybe 9 mph, while it would be time to get off and push @ 11 or 12 mph on the 260.
It's hard to quantify "how steep" a hill is, but I have ridden w/ both mini's and the only hill I couldn't make it up were steep enough that walking, I would probably have my hands on my knees and taking a "breather" at some point. That and not being able to get a run at it. If you can hit it at top speed, the momentum will carry one a couple of hundred yards up I imagine there may be a few hills in Seattle that would be tough and you might have to rethink your route. If you are going to have to negociate long, steep hills, then you should be thinking a larger motor.

Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying, the 1/2 top speed rule-of-thumb is useful. I think I'm still leaning towards the 201 just because of the hills around here. I'm worried that I won't be able to maintain 11mph on the 10% grade from Lake Washington to my house. I was originally considering larger motors like the MAC 350w from EM3ev or the front BPM but they just don't seem to fit well with a road bike and they're more expensive. Do any of the SWX front motors have any advantages over the Q100H? Any of them in the ebikes.ca calc?

I used this tool to find the % grade on a couple hills I've struggled up before, just click the top and the bottom of the hill on the map - http://veloroutes.org/bikemaps/

motomech said:

I would prefer to use throttle only for simplicity.

Click to expand...

So you don't intend to pedal? It's almost impossible to intergrate pedal power to motor power on throttle alone, really, only w/ the the throttle pegged can it be done. Before I woke up and activated my PAS, I would set the cruise and the desired speed range w/the speed limiter and pedal along. That worked well enough on long straights where I was not interrupted. But now, w/ PAS and a half-twist throttle, I have defeated the cruise.
You want simple, go w/this low cost controller(that can be shunt modd;ed to 18 Amps);
http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-48V-250W-14A-6FET-ebike-Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Motor-Controller-with-LED-/222373438955?var=&hash=item33c67d65eb:m:mgxcwDHTuIgK4sxrLPhfyrQ
The beauty of a low-powered Q100 system is that it is easy to have a smooth PAS experience, even w/ a simple square wave controller and a 3-speed limiting display. There isn't enough power that the motor wants to "lunge" when the PAS is activated and the speed range is narrow enough that there are no major gaps even w/ only 3 speeds.

Click to expand...

Hmm, now you have me thinking about spending more money. I just did some more reading on PAS and it does sound kinda nice to just pedal and not worry about throttle. I'm thinking I'll add a PAS, LCD, and HWBS to my build. I'll also change my controller to an S06S but I still need to confirm which will handle 48v. I'll update the OP.

LewTwo said:

Did you see this battery pack.
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
It does have bit smaller capacity and it does cost a bit more but the price includes the 48 volt sine wave controller and cables.

48V11.6Ah Case-08 Bottle Panasonic Battery Pack
Panasonic NCR18650PF battery pack
48V 11.6Ah
18A sine wave controller inside
One S-LCD3
One Thumb throttle
A pair of Brake Grip
One PAS
Waterproof Easy Assemble Wires

Click to expand...

That one looks interesting. I was planning on using the same case, but it has 14.5Ah. I wonder if the controller inside that one is the integrated S06S - that would prove it could handle 48v. If that's it, I could get all the parts in that package individually for less, including a 14.5Ah battery instead of 11.6. Maybe the controller won't fit into the case with more than 11.6Ah worth of cells. I'm going to ask BMS and see what kind of response I get.

The 48V 14.5Ah Case-08 Bottle Panasonic Battery Pack has 5P13S Li-ion 2.9Ah Panasonic NCR18650PF 18650 cells (Total 65 cells)
They have a excellent picture of the inside of this battery that shows how it is constructed. They also have an picture with the exterior dimensions.
FYI: This is orders of magnitude better construction than my Shark battery pack purchased from a popular American vendor.


The 48V 11.6Ah Case-08 Bottle Panasonic Battery Pack has 4P13S Li-ion 2.9Ah Panasonic NCR18650PF 18650 cells (Total 52 cells)
BMS has only has a external picture of this pack but the exterior looks identical to the other. There is nothing about the inside of this battery but there are 13 fewer cells. Unfortunately one cannot assume they are made by the same manufacturer and/or have the same type/quality construction. The inherent problem with the product information BMS provides is that one is always comparing apples to oranges. BMS would be well served by provideing more complete information about their products but communicating that concept to them is challenging to put it mildly.

My Shark battery pack has an small area in the bracket portion that has a heat sink.
I note that my Shark pack has a vertical dimension of 3.5 inches. Th BMS 08 pack shows a vertical dimension of 79.56mm (3.13 inches).



The bracket has been modified to route thr cable out the bottom.
If these are the same cases then one would hope that is where they put the controller but I would not bet on it until I saw one.

Now that you understand the "1/2" speed rule" and the advantage of the 201 over the 260, what I'm going to say will make sense. The SO6S is too under powered for your needs. One might think that a more powerful controller might cause more heat, but we know what is really important is maintaining speed up the hill.
The H version of the Q100 can handle 17 to 20 Amps and once again, every thing keeps pointing to the intergrated/controller. I'm a little nervous recommending something I have not used, but D8veh thinks it's the way to go and that is good enough for me.
If you do not want to remove your crank to install the PAS disc, Ebike CA sells a nffty two piece unit that snaps together.
You could add a more powerful motor to the frt., but w/ those skinny tires, "spin-outs" would be common.
The 201 on 48V in a 700CC whl. will top out around 20 mph and you should be able to add 1 or 2 mph w. your legs. Fast enough for your donor bike.

Thanks for the pics LewTwo. I don't know alot about battery packs but it does look like quality construction. I hope they're legit Panasonic cells and not "re-wraps" that Luna warns about on their site. It is strange that the 14.5Ah and the 11.6Ah Case-08 (shark) is the same price on BMS but it seems like that's the case due to the fact that they list 5P13S and 4P13S in the specs. I don't NEED the extra capacity, but if they're the same price, I'll take it. I guess I would be adding a bit of weight though.

motomech, I agree that the integrated controller would be nice for a lot of reasons, mostly the 18A and wiring/installation simplification. The downside to ordering the package (https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html) is that it's 11.6Ah instead of 14.5. Comparing the price of the 2 setups (package in the link vs. individual parts and standalone S06S), the package would cost me about 25 bucks more. So more money for less battery capacity but more amps and better wiring. Can the standalone S06S be modded to 18A?

I'm guessing I'd top out at 22-24mph with the 260, correct? Like I said I'm leaning towards the 201 but I'm tempted by the extra speed of the 260. I'm not in good enough cycling shape for the hills around here, so I usually get off and walk up that 10% grade hill I mentioned. In the 1 or 2 times I've attempted to ride up it, I'd estimate I only managed 3-5mph. Basically just fast enough to maintain my balance on the bike. Do you think that with motor assistance I could manage the 11mph+ to prevent bogging down the motor? Will the 260 get you moving from a dead stop with only throttle? Any idea what the actual RPM of a 260 is? I found this:

From actual motor testing here (mototech):
the 201 version of the motor spins at 230rpm
The 328 version spins at 270 rpm

I did some more research last nite and the integrated S06S that I've been linking only fits in the 36v case, here's the complete package - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/675-36v116ah-bottle-ebike-panasonic-battery-battery.html

I emailed Sherry at BMS and asked if there was a controller that would fit in the 14.5Ah Case-08. She responded that there is and quoted $352 for the package. I asked for some details on controller amperage, sine vs square wave, and connectors. This could be what I'm looking for, but I'm a little concerned that this configuration isn't on their website, so there may be some risk that I wouldn't get what I think I ordered.

I've been following this thread owing to my interest in the Q series of motors.

I'm presently running the 201RPM Q128c rear hub in 700C wheel at 48 V, along with the S12S controller on a Kona hybrid. One thing I've often heard is that these smaller motors are unable to tolerate being significantly overclocked. If you're running the controller at 18A, 13S x 4.2V on full charge is 982.8 W, which imho, is far too much for the 350W Q100H. Running at recommended power will ensure a long and healthy motor lifetime.

Of note, if you are using throttle, the S12S can be reduced in amp output only to 50%, which in my case is about 540 W. This is more than enough to maintain 20mph on the flats and 10 mph on 8% grades with moderate pedaling, but may be a little much for the Q100H?

molybdenum said:

I've been following this thread owing to my interest in the Q series of motors.

I'm presently running the 201RPM Q128c rear hub in 700C wheel at 48 V, along with the S12S controller on a Kona hybrid. One thing I've often heard is that these smaller motors are unable to tolerate being significantly overclocked. If you're running the controller at 18A, 13S x 4.2V on full charge is 982.8 W, which imho, is far too much for the 350W Q100H. Running at recommended power will ensure a long and healthy motor lifetime.

Of note, if you are using throttle, the S12S can be reduced in amp output only to 50%, which in my case is about 540 W. This is more than enough to maintain 20mph on the flats and 10 mph on 8% grades with moderate pedaling, but may be a little much for the Q100H?

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. The S12S is 25A max so you're running it at 12.5A max? How did you modify it? Maybe the S06S could be modified similarly to increase the amperage. Looks like the BMS Q100 kits include 15A (probably KU63) controllers so 18A is only about 20% more. Looks like quite a few members have been running the Q100 at this level with success.

I forgot to mention in my last post - BMS says that the standalone S06S controller could handle 48v but it will not "fit" a 500w motor. Not sure what that means.

bchaney said:

Any idea what the actual RPM of a 260 is? I found this:

From actual motor testing here (mototech):
the 201 version of the motor spins at 230rpm
The 328 version spins at 270 rpm

Click to expand...

I found the answer to my question, originally posted by motomech:

These are supposed to be no-load speeds, on the test stand @ 36V, but only the 260 rpm motor are actual. The 201 rpms are actually in the 220 to 230 range and the 328's are usually around 280 to 290.

bchaney said:

I don't NEED the extra capacity, but if they're the same price, I'll take it. I guess I would be adding a bit of weight though. ...

Click to expand...

That would be 13 cells at about 43 grams each. Call it 44 to account for the extra nickel conductors: 13 x 44 = 572 grams (1.26 pounds).

bchaney said:

... Maybe the S06S could be modified similarly to increase the amperage. Looks like the BMS Q100 kits include 15A (probably KU63) controllers so 18A is only about 20% more. ...

Click to expand...

Most controllers use a wire shunt across which the amperage is measured. There are a number of threads about applying solder to the shunt to reduce its resistance. This 'fools' the controller into allowing more amperage through. What you are suggesting is upping both the Amperage and the Voltage above what the controller is designed for. If you plan on trying that then I would suggest ordering two controllers so that you have a spare.

I am very interested to find out what they tell you about the controller that fits in the battery pack. They really should add that configuration to their web site. I would not be too concerned about getting genuine Panasonic cells from BMS.

Here is a video about building a shark pack I ran across that you might find interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgcgkzwYnj8

bchaney said:

Thanks for posting. The S12S is 25A max so you're running it at 12.5A max? How did you modify it? Maybe the S06S could be modified similarly to increase the amperage. Looks like the BMS Q100 kits include 15A (probably KU63) controllers so 18A is only about 20% more. Looks like quite a few members have been running the Q100 at this level with success.

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To reduce S12S amperage by half, I used the SLCD3 interface to change the C5 parameters to a setting of 03, which is "max current value / 2.00 (as per the SLCD3V2 manual available at BMSB). There is no way to overamp the S06S through the SLCD5 interface. Like LewTwo said, you can add solder to the shunt and increase the amps drawn, but this is risky; it is easy to add too much solder and fry the controller. Controllers are cheap enough and even if you aren't messing with the shunt, I recommend buying spares of controller, motor etc. since the shipping charges for each item are brutal.

molybdenum said:

I've been following this thread owing to my interest in the Q series of motors.

I'm presently running the 201RPM Q128c rear hub in 700C wheel at 48 V, along with the S12S controller on a Kona hybrid. One thing I've often heard is that these smaller motors are unable to tolerate being significantly overclocked. If you're running the controller at 18A, 13S x 4.2V on full charge is 982.8 W, which imho, is far too much for the 350W Q100H. Running at recommended power will ensure a long and healthy motor lifetime.

Of note, if you are using throttle, the S12S can be reduced in amp output only to 50%, which in my case is about 540 W. This is more than enough to maintain 20mph on the flats and 10 mph on 8% grades with moderate pedaling, but may be a little much for the Q100H?

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Maybe, that actually crossed my mind when I suggested a controller rating of "17 to 20 Amps". Dave recommends limiting the Cute to 20 Amps @36V and 17 A @ 48V.
But, I ran a 260H for a year on a 22 A Lyen Mini-Monster and even tried a 25 A Grineron(always on 12S LiPoly, nom. 46V).
So let's talk about what happens when a mini is "over powered".
Off hand, w/out researching, the only mini's I think of that were "burned up" was related more to over-Volting than too much Current. In particular, and this is going back a while, I remember when mckeefer over-Volted a MXUS to destruction . He was @ something like 17S or 18S when the internal wiring melted! I personaly have melted the kit's cheapo phase connectors @13S/22A, but that was w/ the 328 in a big whl.
My experience w/ running 22A and 25A on my frt. 260H is it is the gears that are @ risk. @ 22 Amps the motor strts to become more noisey and @ 25 A, I could feel/hear the gears start to "Hammer". But, the INfinerons are hard-hitting Square waves, while the controllers in this discussion are "soft-hitting", especially the sine waves.
Now, I'm not recommending 20A/48V on the Q100C, which has approx. 30 % less stator area, but I ran 17A/46V on one for years and never sensed it was over-heating.
So my thinking is that a frt. motor, w/it's better cooling and using a skinny tire(which I;m thinking will break traction on a high-stress situation). a H(lower speed, 201 or 260) will be fine on 20 Amp Sine wave and 48 Volts.

Can the standalone S06S be modded to 18A?

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Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it. It's in a very sm. box w/ limited heat sink area, that and they are notoriously finicky.

... for the hills around here, so I usually get off and walk up that 10% grade hill I mentioned. In the 1 or 2 times I've attempted to ride up it, I'd estimate I only managed 3-5mph. Basically just fast enough to maintain my balance on the bike. Do you think that with motor assistance I could manage the 11mph+ to prevent bogging down the motor? Will the 260 get you moving from a dead stop with only throttle? Any idea what the actual RPM of a 260 is? I found this:

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Starting from a dead stop at the bottom of a hill you are describing would be a "tough row to hoe".
Mini's are more about maintaining momentum than generating it. If you need to do that, you will need a larger motor, a Q128 or the new Bafang at a minimum.

I'm guessing I'd top out at 22-24mph with the 260, correct? Like I said I'm leaning towards the 201 but I'm tempted by the extra speed of the 260.

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Before you get all excited about a new land speed record, I would suggest you go to Sheldon Brown and calculate what kind of gearing you will need to pedal at those speeds(Basicly, how big a chain ring will fit assuming your cassette sm. gear is already a 11T). And the first pothole that you don't see and smack into at 24 mph is going to be a shock..

I emailed Sherry at BMS and asked if there was a controller that would fit in the 14.5Ah Case-08. She responded that there is and quoted $352 for the package. I asked for some details on controller amperage, sine vs square wave, and connectors. This could be what I'm looking for, but I'm a little concerned that this configuration isn't on their website, so there may be some risk that I wouldn't get what I think I ordered.

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And people say that service is non-existent at BMS B. Although you are asking a lot for a salesgirl in China.

Really, at this point, since you have thrown a wrench into the mix w/ the "climbing a steep hill from a dead stop" scenario(which I tried to point out in a round about way in an earlier post), perhaps you should forget mini's all together(unless you want to go with 2WD)and start thinking about a mid-drive or a larger geared(which will have to be mounted on the rear).

motomech said:

Before you get all excited about a new land speed record, I would suggest you go to Sheldon Brown and calculate what kind of gearing you will need to pedal at those speeds(Basicly, how big a chain ring will fit assuming your cassette sm. gear is already a 11T). And the first pothole that you don't see and smack into at 24 mph is going to be a shock..

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I have a 52T chainring and 11T cassette so according to the calc I should be able to hit 22.2mph at 60RPM or 33.3mph at 90RPM. I'm honestly not sure how fast I peddle. Land speed record - lol. You're probably right about the pothole.

motomech said:

Really, at this point, since you have thrown a wrench into the mix w/ the "climbing a steep hill from a dead stop" scenario(which I tried to point out in a round about way in an earlier post), perhaps you should forget mini's all together(unless you want to go with 2WD)and start thinking about a mid-drive or a larger geared(which will have to be mounted on the rear).

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Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean at the bottom of a hill. I was watching a youtube vid and the guy commented that it was nice to have a throttle to get a little boost off the line when at a traffic light or something. Just wondering if the 201, 260, neither, or both would give me that capability. I am over analyzing but I can't make up my mind between the 2.

LewTwo said:

That would be 13 cells at about 43 grams each. Call it 44 to account for the extra nickel conductors: 13 x 44 = 572 grams (1.26 pounds).

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Cool, thanks for that. Out of curiosity I just weighted my bike - 25.2lbs. If I multiply your 1.26lb by 5 I get 6.3lb worth of cells. Case is probably 2lb? Motor is 4.6lb and wiring/throttle/LCD/BMS/etc is maybe 2lb so I'm probably adding about 15lbs to the bike for a total of 40lbs. You're weight weenie bike is 30lbs and you're still not happy with it?

LewTwo said:

Here is a video about building a shark pack I ran across that you might find interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgcgkzwYnj8

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That's really cool. Looks like a lot of work, easily worth the money. Didn't realize the case has battery level LEDs. I guess a controller PCB could go in that little box in the frame mounted bracket.

bchaney said:

You're weight weenie bike is 30lbs and you're still not happy with it?

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It needs to loose about 5 pounds, a softer ride, faster speed, longer range. Is anything ever perfect? :lol:
Actually I am very happy with it but there is always room for improvement. Projects (among others) in the works include a Battery in a tube, Bamboo 'crank forward' frame and shaft drive E-bike. I also have some planned upgrades for the weight weenie bike but those will wait until one of the other projects are finished.

bchaney said:

Didn't realize the case has battery level LEDs.

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That is really a poor design. To read it you must push the button in the middle. Thus you always have a finder or thumb over some of the LEDs. I will be replacing mine with a tiny volt meter. I am also going to add a keyed power switch. The shark pack will go on the shaft drive bicycle.

bchaney said:

I guess a controller PCB could go in that little box in the frame mounted bracket.

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Hopefully - I am waiting to find out. I want to see a picture of that controller and its actual placement. From my perspective a at 48 volts, 18 Amps, 14.5 Amp hours and less than 10 pounds, that is just about good a configuration for a battery pack as one can find with current technology .... until my StarTrek power module comes in. But nothing is ever perfect ... It still lacks a 12 or 5 volt outlet for lights and a keyed power switch.

LewTwo said:

Hopefully - I am waiting to find out. I want to see a picture of that controller and its actual placement. From my perspective a at 48 volts, 18 Amps, 14.5 Amp hours and less than 10 pounds, that is just about good a configuration for a battery pack as one can find with current technology .... until my StarTrek power module comes in. But nothing is ever perfect ... It still lacks a 12 or 5 volt outlet for lights and a keyed power switch.

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OK, she responded that the integrated controller is an 18-20A sine wave and sent a picture of wires hanging out of a case - it looks exactly like what's shown in the picture of the 11.6Ah package with integrated controller (https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/774-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html). I guess I'll have to open it up and take some pics once I get it. The key is not for a power switch? Is there another way to run lights off this pack?

I messed around with the ebikes.ca calc some more and I've decided to go with the 260RPM motor. All of the curves just look so similar (except the 260 reaches higher speeds) and at 18A it predicts that the motor can power the bike over 11mph up grades as high as 8%. With peddling I'm hoping I can hit 11mph+ on 10%. If not, it will be good motivation to get into better cycling shape. Land speed record, here I come.

I asked Sherry to update my quote with all the parts we discussed as well as some of the wiring and parts from the 11.6Ah package for an easier/cleaner install. Hope they understand what I'm asking for, I tried to make it clear and included a pic. I know I'm asking a lot, but I figured it's worth asking for exactly what I want and hoping for the best.

Do I need 2 HWBS or is 1 fine?

bchaney said:

I guess I'll have to open it up and take some pics once I get it.

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I/we will look forward to that.

bchaney said:

The key is not for a power switch?

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Not on any of the Shark packs that I am aware. It only locks the battery to the bracket. If it has the integrated controller and its corresponding display unit then there may be another option for switching the power on/off via the display.

bchaney said:

Is there another way to run lights off this pack?

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Several:
1) The display unit may have a lower voltage output
2) You can use high voltage lights
3) You can add a resistance converter (linear voltage regulator, zener diode, resistor network, etc)
4) You can add a switching converter (much more efficient)

At some point you are going to have to wait until you get your BMS bits and then see if there is anything else that you might need.

Edit:
Be sure your parts list has the display unit listed.
Must of their current version display units seems to have an on/off function.
They also list a "Lighting" indicator but nothing about how it is implemented or how lights would be connected.