Planing to build my first eBike, critiques please.

Hi guys,
My first post here. I plan to build my first ebike that I want to use for long rides ( maybe up to 60 miles or so ) along the beach, mixed terrain, small grassy hils, etc.

something of that nature:


I already have a Superior bike with 29" wheels that I plan to convert to electric.



Two things trouble me the most:
Wheels / tires, which I think might be too narrow for going on mixed terrain, so I could either

1. get 29/2.25" tires on the rims that I already have
[strike]2. get 27.5 plus ( 2.8" - 3" wide ) wheels with tires and try to get them onto this frame
3. get 27.5 plus ( 2.8" - 3" wide ) wheel for the back and a fatter one, supposedly 4" , with a new fork for the front[/strike]
edit: appears that 27.5+ wheels cost like a new bike. so crossing this option out.

4. forget about the current frame and get a new farbike to convert it

which of this options would you suggest?

as for the motor and battery, I don't need to go very fast, but might need some torque to assent some hills.
I though that a BAFANG/8FUN geared rear 48v 500w with a 15Amp controller might be a good start.


I found this motor for about 120$

if I understand correctly, 500w is it continuous output, while for a short time ( like getting up a hill ), it could output 48v * 15A = 720w , right?

What do you think of this? Is it a good idea, or should I go with a more powerfull, direct drive motor?

... while on the other hand, I see here mostly direct drive 48v1000w motors are suggested. something,like this maybe?


Thanks

60 miles is too far for me on a bike, maybe aim for 20-30miles. If your riding a lot of beach maybe try a fat tire bike and a DD rear hub. Problem with going so far is battery weight and then body fatigue, better get a comfy bike!

skeetab5780 said:

60 miles is too far for me on a bike, maybe aim for 20-30miles. If your riding a lot of beach maybe try a fat tire bike and a DD rear hub. Problem with going so far is battery weight and then body fatigue, better get a comfy bike!

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Thanks for the tip. I was thinking 60 miles+ like a field-trip a few times during the summer, not like an everyday thing.

Now you have discovered the real purpose of 650B ("27.5 inch") wheels and tires. Costing extra to do the same job is what they're all about.

For a mixture of both off-road terrain and your specified long range, you'll have to provide most of the required propulsion with the pedals. That suggests a geared hubmotor would be a much better choice than a direct drive hub motor.

On the other hand, 29 inch wheels in combination with a hub motor will usually give an efficient road speed far in excess of what makes sense for beach riding and the like. So you'll need to find a geared motor with the slowest available wheel RPM/volt. Low speed under motor power will conserve energy to increase range, too.

Getting a second bike for your conversion makes sense, in that you won't screw up the qualities you like about the bike you have now. Making that bike a fatbike, though, works against your desired range, because under most circumstances fatbikes use more energy to go the same distance as a normal MTB.

Chalo said:

Now you have discovered the real purpose of 650B ("27.5 inch") wheels and tires. Costing extra to do the same job is what they're all about.

For a mixture of both off-road terrain and your specified long range, you'll have to provide most of the required propulsion with the pedals. That suggests a geared hubmotor would be a much better choice than a direct drive hub motor.

On the other hand, 29 inch wheels in combination with a hub motor will usually give an efficient road speed far in excess of what makes sense for beach riding and the like. So you'll need to find a geared motor with the slowest available wheel RPM/volt. Low speed under motor power will conserve energy to increase range, too.

Getting a second bike for your conversion makes sense, in that you won't screw up the qualities you like about the bike you have now. Making that bike a fatbike, though, works against your desired range, because under most circumstances fatbikes use more energy to go the same distance as a normal MTB.

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Thanks for the reply. Yes, looks like getting fatter wheels for an existing bike isn't a good idea.

Yet I found and ordered great 29x2.25" tires at 15$ a piece. Hopefully they would go more or less fine on hard sand and mixed terrain.



As for the motor, it looks like more information leans towards a 48v1000w direct drive rear hub with a 20A controller. So I guess I'll order this one for 150$ from China.

FME, you're not going to enjoy a 20 pound rear hub off road (fine for road though). A geared rear motor or mid-drive would be my choice.

2old said:

FME, you're not going to enjoy a 20 pound rear hub off road (fine for road though). A geared rear motor or mid-drive would be my choice.

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From what I can find, geared motors usually go in the 250-500W range... 1000W motors seem more like direct drive.
Middrives might be interesting, but they cost about 450$ , three times more then a read DD. Are they really worth it?

You are looking to use a pogo stick to jump to the moon.

You have defined your use as just about the toughest use you can put on an ebike.

Sand sucks power like crazy. 60 miles takes a ton of battery power. The difference between a 29x2.0 and 29 x 2.25 tire will make very little difference in soft or hard sand---you have to go through the soft sand to get to the hardpack.

You will spend a lot more getting your $149 hub motor to work than you realize. Does it have disc mounts? Is it the same width as your frame, Are you going to build the wheel?

Kits available from Luna would be where I would recommend you start.

Read all the posts on their blog. Follow links. If you still believe you can get this $149 hub to work then good luck.

You will have an adventure anyway. Good luck

It does have a disc mount and is the same 135mm width, but you are right, a middrive BBS02B has a build in controller and does not require re-lacing the wheel. So probably I'll go with it.
I'm in Europe, so while luna looks like a nice site, ordering a Chinese motor from the US isn't a good idea.

As a novice I would suggest you might get a lot of information from the links off of the article on this blog.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/05/how-to-buy-your-first-ebike-or-ebike-kit-and-not-get-punked/

He rides his winter bikes as electric motorcycles but uses an electric commuter. Tons of information. He has broken more than most of us will ever touch.

In my opinion, you would be better off getting a true fat bike, with 4"+ tires, and going the Mid-drive route. This will be especially true if you do much riding in soft sand conditions, at low speed. You want maximum torque to the wheel, which is better achieved with a mid drive like the BBSHD. Lots of options from AliExpress or from EM3EV.com.

A 1000W Hub motor will overheat quickly on difficult terrain, but you will be able to gear down the mid drive so it's still operating in it's optimum efficiency range.

Zbikenut said:

As a novice I would suggest you might get a lot of information from the links off of the article on this blog.
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/05/how-to-buy-your-first-ebike-or-ebike-kit-and-not-get-punked/
He rides his winter bikes as electric motorcycles but uses an electric commuter. Tons of information. He has broken more than most of us will ever touch.

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Thanks for the link, reading it right now.

teslanv said:

In my opinion, you would be better off getting a true fat bike, with 4"+ tires, and going the Mid-drive route. This will be especially true if you do much riding in soft sand conditions, at low speed. You want maximum torque to the wheel, which is better achieved with a mid drive like the BBSHD. Lots of options from AliExpress or from EM3EV.com.
A 1000W Hub motor will overheat quickly on difficult terrain, but you will be able to gear down the mid drive so it's still operating in it's optimum efficiency range.

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Of course a true fat bike would be great, but right now it would be a bit over the budget. So I guess I'll first start by putting a middrive on my existing bike and, if it won't go well, then I'll get a fatty and would transfer the middrive to it. Still thinking about either BBS02B or BBSHD... the last one, probably, might seem too powerful.

Roger86 said:

Of course a true fat bike would be great, but right now it would be a bit over the budget. So I guess I'll first start by putting a middrive on my existing bike and, if it won't go well, then I'll get a fatty and would transfer the middrive to it. Still thinking about either BBS02B or BBSHD... the last one, probably, might seem too powerful.

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Only problem with that strategy is the Bottom Bracket Width.

Most Fat Bikes are 100mm to 120mm wide BB. I would guess your current bike is 68mm or 73mm???

How big is your budget? The Deadeye Monster at Bikes Direct is still only $399 and is a great place to start a ride-as-you-build project. Karl at electric bike-blog.com has the complete recipe and I've built two without a single glitch. It has a 135mm rear dimension so cheap IGHs fit, but it will still take a 4.00 rear tire and a 4.8 front tire (Bud won't fit in back, but Nate will). Just add BBSHD and stir! 8)

I wouldn't go the middrive. The BPM is actually more than adequate.


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Roger I think setting up a bike properly for riding in the Sand is the main issue here.I would not want to discourage it as its super fun but If you truly want to ride your bike in the sand it's going to cost you some money. Riding in soft sand (by the looks of the photo in the OP the sand looks soft) is going to cost you in maintenance and its going to cost you more money to build than a trail or street bike, like maybe twice what you may think.

How far do you want to ride your bike on a sandy beach? Riding sand is awesome if you are set up right but forget about doing it on the cheap, you would be just wasting your time in my opinion. A happy bike in the sand is fat tire and mid drive so first of all decide if this is the route you want to go or forget about the sand all together. Good luck and keep us posted.......wayne

+1 on the Gravity Fat Bikes...

teslanv said:

+1 on the Gravity Fat Bikes...

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That's a beauty! How do you like the SA IGH and do have a side view of the hub and tensioner? Your dropout looks just like the one on my Sniper. BTW, I like the way you handled the cabling with the stub sheath just in front of the SA linkage. I have the same situation where the welded cable stop for a derailleur is the reverse of what is needed for an IGH.

I think a geared 500W hub would make a good choice, you don't want a motor/controller that uses too much power or you will never make 60miles.
Its the old saying "speed kills range" because of drag. 1000W DD would be the dumbest of all possible ideas.

I think one problem you could face if you go mid-drive is if your on a beach far away from any roads to get picked up via car etc and your chain breaks then your dead in the water, but a hub drive can just keep going just fine without a chain. I don't know if this should be affecting your decision, just a point.

If you don't know of anyone who can build/supply a quality Bafang hub laced wheel build then an alternative would be to order a 500W built MAC wheel/kit from em3ev.

WoodlandHills said:

That's a beauty! How do you like the SA IGH and do have a side view of the hub and tensioner? Your dropout looks just like the one on my Sniper. BTW, I like the way you handled the cabling with the stub sheath just in front of the SA linkage. I have the same situation where the welded cable stop for a derailleur is the reverse of what is needed for an IGH.

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Thanks! The SA IGH is a pleasure to ride. Especially with the gearsensor. This bike was for a friend, but I liked it so much, I'm building a similar one for myself.

And after fiddling with the tensioner repeatedly, I decided it's better to start with a single speed frame with Horizontal Drop-outs. - And eliminate the chain tensioner altogether.

I agree about the horizontal dropouts, that's why I have two (originally single-speed) Deadeye Monsters with IGHs. They don't have the tapered head tube like you do, so I have to use a Cane Creek adaptor for fancy forks, but chain adjustment and alignment is a cinch. One has an RST Renegade and the other a fantastic $95 eBay Chinese carbon fork.

There is a big lateral chain misalignment between my IGH and Mini 30, but a tensioner/aligner like you have (Surly Singulator) has completely prevented derails at the expense of side wear on the Mini 30. With steel chain and a steel rear sprocket the alloy Mini 30 is the weak link so it's what is wearing out, 15 months and at least 1000 off-road miles later and the narrow teeth are showing some very sharp edges on the outside.

My Sniper has the same castings for dropouts as your bike and I was planning on using a Singulator as a tensioner on this build since my Deadeyes worked so well with them previously. I saw a lot of types of tensioners online, but the Surly was the only one I found with side plates to help with chain alignment. And after over 1000 miles I am convinced it works. It helps with tensioning, but the real benefit is that the rolling plates on either side of the cog really allow you to quietly push the chain sideways to feed it onto the IGH sprocket and thus it never derails.

Which shifter are you using: the thumb one that came with the kit? I wonder if a Shimano Nexus3 grip shifter would work?

Thanks for the input guys.

So far looks like I have settled for the BBS02B, which I found on aliexpress for about 460$, including shipping, 44 tooth gear, 850C LCD display and other bells and whistles. )



Now for the battery what do you think, would this one for 450$ including shipping, be a good deal?





on the other hand they have rack batteries at 380$

Roger86 said:

Thanks for the input guys.

So far looks like I have settled for the BBS02B, which I found on aliexpress for about 460$, including shipping, 44 tooth gear, 850C LCD display and other bells and whistles. )

Now for the battery what do you think, would this one for 450$ including shipping, be a good deal?

on the other hand they have rack batteries at 380$

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That looks like a decent price. Interesting that the ad notes a "Sanyo" cell rated at 3.5Ah. That seems to imply a GA cell. Competitor sellers will warn you about counterfeit cells, and I suppose there is that chance. The only way to know for sure is buy and test actual capacity, which most buyer's don't bother to do. But if you are happy with the results, don't be shy about sharing your experiences.

I will reiterate my comment before: Be sure you get the correct Bottom Bracket width for your frame, and know that if you change frames later, it will need the same BB measurements for the motor to fit. And most fat bikes have 100mm or wider BB's.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom

Roger I am still wondering how much sand you are going to be riding? What kind of distance?..... because this is a very important part of getting the right compromise of components for your set up. If you are riding a lot of sand this puts your needs into a different category.

Roger I am still wondering how much sand you are going to be riding? What kind of distance?..... because this is a very important part of getting the right compromise of components for your set up. If you are riding a lot of sand this puts your needs into a different category.

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I guess at this point I will have to adjust the route to fit the bike. if the 29/2.25 tires would be able to go well on hard/wet send, then great, if no I will, depending on the budget, either get a fatbike or would go though some forest trails, like this ones.

The only way to know for sure is buy and test actual capacity, which most buyer's don't bother to do.

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I guess the controller / 850C would be able to show how much Ahs I use before the battery runs out, won't it?

Be sure you get the correct Bottom Bracket width for your frame, and know that if you change frames later, it will need the same BB measurements for the motor to fit. And most fat bikes have 100mm or wider BB's.

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Yes, I'm keeping that in mind. So far my dad and girlfriend also show great interest in ebikes, so if I end up getting a fatbike & BBSHD , current bike & BBS02B would be in good hands.