Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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waynebergman   10 kW

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by waynebergman » Feb 11 2017 3:27pm

sticker.jpg
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Hey Amber that is very observant. Attached here is a blow up from the hi res photo and it very well be made on a home computor and stuck on the sign by anyone?

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 11 2017 4:09pm

Rock Art is a sign shop in Arizona that specializes is signage for government agencies, BLM, NPS, etc. They sell to the public so this could be a hoax sign, but most likely it is official....... https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/
Another big win for those who think they are not being noticed when they are simply not being confronted......NOT!

Isn't it obvious that most folks don't want to get in anyone's face on the trail, no matter what you ride and that reasonable people will simply keep quiet for the moment and then call the Rangers when they get home to complain. Just because you didn't get tackled off of your eMTB does not mean the the folks you met on the trail approved in any manner or form. More likely is that most people are polite enough to not make a scene, but that's not approval, nor is it acceptance.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by molybdenum » Feb 11 2017 4:23pm

The sign can be purchased from Rockart. See https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/contact and look on the lower right for sign 10-969 "no ebikes"

oops, seems woodlandhills was first past the post. Still, anyone could have stuck this on and for a sign to be official, it usually quotes a bylaw number.
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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by nutnspecial » Feb 11 2017 4:40pm

Horses and bikes allowed, but not a one horsepower bike.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by craneplaneguy » Feb 11 2017 4:46pm

NO SPEEDING, NO BREAKING TRACTION/TEARING THE TRAIL UP, NO NOISE.

That's how I ride anyway. I'm not around other e bikes much, just a few Bafàng types, 1 Levo, and 1 Haibike, all silent.

I neglected to make clear that that is how I think the sign should read. Problem (if there is even one, not just e paranoia) solved. Speeders on a heavily used trail are aholes, whether e aholes or non e aholes riders. Think I just invented a couple of new terms there.
Last edited by craneplaneguy on Feb 11 2017 9:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 11 2017 5:03pm

craneplaneguy wrote:NO SPEEDING, NO BREAKING TRACTION/TEARING THE TRAIL UP, NO NOISE.

That's how I ride anyway. I'm not around other e bikes much, just a few Bafàng types, 1 Levo, and 1 Haibike, all silent.
Make a visit to mtbr.com and see how little anyone cares about how responsibly you ride your ebike on trails that ban ebikes: If it has a motor it is not welcome. I disagree with that viewpoint, but I don't pretend that it is not the way a probable majority of traditional MTBers feel about us.

Also I don't recall seeing code numbers or bylaw information on most Federal signage, only on municipal or perhaps some state signs. I am pretty sure that the Rangers think the rules are enforceable even without the relevant code posted on the sign, at least they act that way around here......

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by waynebergman » Feb 11 2017 5:29pm

e ok.jpg
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Yes I see those stickers can be bought for .95 cents a piece but you have to have a minimum of a $75.00 order to get any stickers from RockArt. I know this because I tried to buy the cheaper stickers as well for 85 cents the ones that say e-bikes are OK plus a few of the no ebike ones to make sure anyone can buy them. I dont have 75 bucks to waste but I was willing to buy 3 or them for a 10 dollar test. These RockArt guys for sure make these signs for the authorities that be, but I guess the question is who put the stickers there at the Sedona trail heads.

Some one with $75 dollars thats for sure, but most likely it is ligit. But if you have a spare 75 bucks and a bee in your bonnet you can slap these things all over the place and it would look pretty official. By the looks of this you need to go a little deeper than posted signage to be sure, but how does one really know at first glance coming to a new trail. Seems pretty easy to buy these stickers.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by amberwolf » Feb 12 2017 1:35am

Well, you could ask the forest service, or whoever actually maintains / signs those trails, to see what they *should* be stickered as.


As far as acceptance goes...:

Some years back, when they still had a usable forum, I joined up at FreakBikeNation, because they are custom bike builders, and the crazier the contraption that is still rideable, the more interesting it seemed to be, from teh stuff I read there. Figured I should be right at home.

But they had a rule--no motorized bikes of any kind.

Well...that took all my stuff out.

But I did have pics of the build and "design" process for CrazyBike2 before I got to the stage of sticking the powerchair motors on it, and I had ridden it as a pedal only bike, as my first 'bent, so I posted that up, with a note that it's further development would be here at ES or my Electricle Blog.

And I guess it must've been different enough to get requests to see more; I ended up posting updates including the motor stuff; I even got invited to the local chapter's rides on First Fridays downtown, even though they didnt' allow motorized stuff either, knowing that I'd be riding it using the motor. I helped others out with their projects, they with mine, etc.

It ended up not exactly changing the rule, but allowed acceptance of electrically-motorized stuff, where none had been before, and others with electric stuff began posting up, dunno if any others showed up to the rides as I was never able to make it down again (always end up working fridays, at least on first fridays).



Not the same thing as the trails stuff, but sometimes things like this might work out similarly, if you were local and put work into changing things. Find those resistant to it and show them you're not any different from the other trail users....help them out and they might help you.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by Jestronix » Feb 12 2017 10:01pm

Wonder how people with a legitimate injury would feel about dumping their favorite trail and they genuinely need an ebike and are there to enjoy just like everyone else. I wonder if we will start seeing disability cards etc so they they can enjoy the trail too.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by Triketech » Feb 12 2017 10:44pm

waynebergman wrote:Triketech, according to USDA in the first link you provided it says......
"Under the ADA definition, any device that is both designed solely for mobility for a person with disability and which is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area may be used where foot and other forms of non-motorized travel are allowed. E-bikes are not designed solely for people with disabilities and their use in an indoor pedestrian area would be unfit at the time. Therefore, e-bikes do not qualify for exception and may only be used where allowed by the Motor Vehicle Use Map."

This conflicts with your summary from the ADA second link you gave. According to what is stated above from the folks at USDA because our bikes are not "designed SOLELY for mobility for a person with disability" I think the handicap pass will not really fly. Unless the ADA overrides the USDA statements..........wayne
E-Bikes maybe, but ADA includes Segways.

E-Trikes are allowed indoors in most federal buildings. I suppose the difference is if you can stop without putting a foot down.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by Hwy89 » Feb 12 2017 11:38pm

This is sad. I'm sure this will be the trend of the future. The time will come where ebikes will be banned from trails and bike lanes. I'm sure registration and mandatory insurance won't be far behind.
Be happy that you had a chance to enjoy them before the establishment figured out what we were up to.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 12 2017 11:46pm

As usual when people run wild and do whatever they want in violation of posted rules and regulations there is some sort of consequence. In this case it is prohibition.....

To think that it is someone else's fault is simply delusional: if you make a habit of riding where it is posted that you cannot, what do you think will happen? De Nile is more than just a river in Egypt........

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by craneplaneguy » Feb 13 2017 9:37am

True, but does anyone know for sure if there were ACTUAL problems? As in a few e bike caused (to others) injuries, or an e bike rider scaring the hell out of some hiker by going super fast? I don't know, maybe so, just asking. Or...was it someone or a group of someones just not liking the idea of ebikes there? Not that it really matters to me, I'd just like to know, as yet I have not heard of ANY specific actual problems, trail closures or injuries, caused by wild out of control e bike hooligans, and sure as hell if there was a rash of incidents you know the e haters would be shouting about them from the rooftops! The big refrain seems to be, "we need to stop it BEFORE there is a problem, and we lose trail access." I'd like to see a list, gathered nationwide, of injuries to others and definable actual problems caused by responsible e bike riders, I won't hold my breath. Then, let's compare that list to injuries caused by mtbr's hauling ass downhill. Here locally we had a 80 something old lady knocked on her ass by one, who didn't even help her out afterwards but just raced down to his car, loaded up, and drove off. This got huge local news coverage, the fact he wasn't an e biker was a very good thing. Also,the only injuries around here on e bikes have been self inflicted, no one else involved.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 13 2017 11:35am

With an emotional issue like powered vs unpowered bicycles, how one rides is meaningless. It all comes down to WHERE one rides. If ebikes trespass where they are not permitted the response is not going to be a thoughtful consideration of each individual violator tempered by observations of how responsible (or quiet! LOL) they might be when observed. Nobody cares about any of that! It all boils down to one simple fact: did you have a motor and were you on a trail that you should not have been riding.

Go over to any MTB forum and spend time reading the ebike threads: it is a simple black and white issue with no room for nuance. Motor=bad. Motorized bikes on trails=disaster for regular MTBs. Right or wrong, that's what seems to be the prevailing sentiment and their fear of having the trails they have worked so hard to gain access to closed due to the actions of a completely new type of bicycle is a not unreasonable reaction. Flagrant and frequent disregard of trail access rules is probably not the best way to win these people over and winning them over is essential to our cause given that MTBs are recognized stakeholders.

So, by all means, ride wherever you want whenever you want, just do not pretend that there is no negative impact on everyone else who might hope to change minds and open access by working within the system. It's just too bad that Outlaw eBikers/trail raiders cannot be bothered to show up at land use meetings, citizen forums or offer to help out MTB trail crews in order to build good will. Even a letter writing campaign directed towards land use managers who will be making the actual decisions regarding trail access seems to be too much trouble.....

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by craneplaneguy » Feb 13 2017 12:40pm

So, I take that to mean there IS no long list of problems caused by e bikes? I'm not advocating poaching trails, and I agree with your statement WH, no use getting them all riled up. None of this is an issue for me, I ride legal, no other way here almost, all multi use.

One of my flying forums I'm on, that I've posted about my e bikes on, in particular the folding Montague I fly with, got a comment from a Colorado pilot. He said "these e bikes are causing all kinds of problems here," or words to that effect. When I asked him to specify the problems, it came down to what you would expect, he had just picked up on some the consternation being expressed by the local mtbr's, but once again, could not come up with any actual problems, injuries, trail closures, etc.

Again, by continually asking others to give a concrete example of problems caused, I'm not advocating poaching, or quibbling with those trail builders who are concerned with losing their access. At the same time, I feel someone has to point out, that so far it is much ado about nothing. It almost seems a bit weird, by now you'd think the incidents would be piling up, e hooligans raising all kinds of hell, if it's happened, I have yet to hear about it.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by fechter » Feb 13 2017 3:18pm

The unpowered mountain bikers here cause the majority of the problems with other trail users. I am not aware of a single instance of an ebike causing a problem on a trail other than being called a "cheater" by some lycra clad idiot speeding on the trails.

I have a pretty strong dislike of many of these guys as they just have an arrogant attitude and are aggressive. Now I avoid their more popular single track trails and go for the fire roads which are steep, rough and nice and wide. Once you get above about 800' of elevation gain, you don't see many other people.
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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by E-geezer » Feb 17 2017 5:58pm

Since it's USFS, it's not like ebikes were just banned, I don't think they've ever been allowed on hiking trails, there just weren't any signs before. What pushed the local office to put those stickers on the signs is another question altogether.
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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 17 2017 7:42pm

It is probably a lot easier to enforce if it's posted. Like No Trespassing or No Hunting there is a well defined protocol to where and how far apart the signage needs to be to be enforceable. This may be something similar.

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by tomjasz » Jun 01 2017 12:39am

Fast electric bike and that sort of groups head space is what has, and will make life hard for responsible riders. Polite gets a pass, ive found.
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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by simonov » Sep 16 2019 7:33pm

This was an interesting thread, and if as a n00b I can't yet contribute much with regard to e-bike technology, perhaps I can offer some perspective on trail controls.
E-geezer wrote:
Feb 17 2017 5:58pm
Since it's USFS, it's not like ebikes were just banned, I don't think they've ever been allowed on hiking trails, there just weren't any signs before.
The first sign posted on the previous page was at the entrance to a designated Wilderness Area. Congress defines Wilderness Areas and they have been around since at least 1964, maybe longer. Generally, no wheeled or motorized vehicles of any kind are permitted in Wilderness Areas, so e-bikers shouldn't take it personally. Individual USFS District Managers might enforce the rules more or less liberally, but when I worked in the San Gorgonio Wilderness 30 years ago we couldn't bring wheelbarrows into the Wilderness, and trails had to be cleared with two-man saws instead of chainsaws.

In the Carson Range above Reno there are lots of mixed use trails (foot and bicycle) that become foot trails only when they cross into the Mt Rose Wilderness.

I have no doubt that in some places individuals riding e-bikes irresponsibly caused clamp-downs (because I know those guys are always there, being visible and causing problems; we have them in every other avocational activity with which I have ever been involved, and even here on ES there are at least a couple guys who seem to question your manhood if you aren't interested in riding fast); but it's more likely that e-bikes are banned on many trails simply because they are motorized, and so are lumped together with motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc. I am not interested in meticulous legal nit-picking about what is and is not a "vehicle:" to 95% of the population of average or greater intelligence, if it has a motor, it is a motorized vehicle.

Yeah, I get it that there are a number of Lycra activists who are down on e-bikes in some areas, for whatever finger-wagging reasons; but they probably represent a minority of the anti-e-bike policy decisions. It's probably as simple, in most places, as I've suggested above.

I don't share the pessimism expressed by others, that e-bikes will be more and more heavily regulated. In fact, the heavy regulation has already occurred, by lumping them together with noisy, smelly and fast motorcycles, and we have actually seen some liberalization over the last few years, in some areas. As e-bikes become more accepted and understood in general, they will doubtless be allowed on more and more trails . . . unless dumbasses make nuisances of themselves with irresponsible riding.

But some perspective: some areas must be shared among a variety of users, while other places should be restricted only to those users with the least impact. It is difficult to refute that (though I once saw a bumper sticker in Las Vegas that said "WILDERNESS IS A WASTE OF PUBLIC LANDS," so I guess not everyone will agree with me).

o On off-road forums, they are probably bitching that the Forest Service doesn't improve single-track motorcycle trails so that four-wheel vehicles can use them.

o On the dirt biking forums, they are bitching that so many mountain biking trails are closed to motorcycles.

o On the mountain biking forums, they are bitching because they can't ride their bikes in designated Wilderness Areas.

o In the hiking forums, they are bitching about all the off-roaders, dirt-bikers and mountains bikers. And equestrians, too. And people with dogs.

In 2013 I walked 63 miles across the Sierra Nevada in nine days, through an area that has never had roads and never will. It was one of the highlights of my life. You can bet I was glad there were no cars, motorcycles or bicycles (powered or not). Some people might reasonably point out that it's Not Fair™ that those places are only accessible to people who are willing to walk 63 miles and live out of a backpack for six to nine days. But I'm not so sure "fairness" is really applicable to arguments about whether the High Sierra Trail or the John Muir Trail should be opened up to motorcycles, mountain bikes or e-bikes (let alone RVs, etc).
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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by markz » Sep 16 2019 7:42pm

Exactly that, an ebike is a medical mobility device, it is really that simple!

I have seen plenty a disabled placard on a windshield, and that person looks perfectly normal, walks perfectly normal, no limp no thing. Countless times I have seen the same with both adults, assuming they are married. Of course this is at the front door of a multi-acre floor like a Home Depot, Lowes or Walmart with its Supercenters of up to 260,000 square feet. Remember an acre is 43k sq ft, roughly the size of a football field. That is a total of 6 acres = 6 football fields.
Jestronix wrote:
Feb 12 2017 10:01pm
injury
genuinely need an ebike

disability cards etc

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by fechter » Sep 16 2019 9:46pm

Looks like things might be turning around:

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2 ... onal-parks

https://gearjunkie.com/nps-e-bike-rules-national-parks
“E-bikes are allowed where traditional bicycles are allowed.” In a policy memo released today, the National Park Service (NPS) succinctly formalizes an increasingly popular stance across many U.S. states governing the use of e-bikes on public lands.

Following an order by Interior Secretary David Bernhardt this week, the NPS today announced rules governing e-bikes in national parks. And the new regulations effectively recognize e-bikes as non-motorized bicycles. Class 1, 2, and 3 e-bikes will have access to park roads, paved or hardened trails, designated off-road motor vehicle areas, and administrative roads.
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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by waynebergman » Sep 16 2019 10:27pm

I just had a quick look on trail forks to see what kind of designations are appearing on the trailforks app for the Sedona area.
Screen Shot 2019-09-16 at 8.24.29 PM.jpg
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See attachment above , looks like at this time the trails in Sedona are still not ebike friendly but who knows this could change.Lets keep our fingers crossed.I am thinking a quick call to a local bike shop in the area would get the skinny on if things will change any time soon.......wayne

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 16 2019 10:34pm

This was in the article ... " In his order, the Interior secretary didn't differentiate between the three classes, and directed the Park Service, Bureau of Land Management, and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to "exempt all e-bikes ... from the definition of motor vehicles."

I like the part that says , exempt all e-bikes from the definition of motor vehicles !

Also, Just last week the local news brodcasts Chanel 5 , Chanel 4 and Chanel 2 all reported and I quote them

" President Trump has signed into law , that e-bikes will be allowed to ride on trails in National Parks. "

The local news brodcasts all said that Yosemite National Park will now have to allow e-bikes on the paths .
( most likely the paths that allow non-motor bikes ) not , All , paths which is what the news programs were saying.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Sedona e-bike trail closure ?

Post by fechter » Sep 16 2019 11:17pm

Dang, first thing Trump did that I like.
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