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45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 25 2017 10:55pm
by Scotty T
This was put up by Emax bikes and I agree that we need some changes. 750w/45km would be my preferred position but we need to start somewhere.

https://www.change.org/p/45km-h-speed-p ... -australia

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 25 2017 11:30pm
by Eskimo
45 km/h should be a global standard with 500W or something.
‚ó¶Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Finland all have similar laws in place.
Austria and Germany too, if i understand correctly. In Finland power limit is 1kw with 60 euro insurance, no type approval required so kit bikes ok.
In Austria power limit is higher than 250W and in Germany 45 km/h is allowed with 350W.
Aussie law is unbelievable tight expecially when compared to how great distances Australia has between everything.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 25 2017 11:41pm
by flat tire
That's such a crappy "solution" you're striving for that your best bet is to just run illegal and be vigilant--see cop, slow down and pedal.

Also, petitions are just about the least effective way ever to make something happen.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 26 2017 2:36am
by Scotty T
flat tire wrote:That's such a crappy "solution" you're striving for that your best bet is to just run illegal and be vigilant--see cop, slow down and pedal.

Also, petitions are just about the least effective way ever to make something happen.
I think the "solution" is working our way up to the next best thing without scaring politicians. A 350w mid drive that can do up to 45km/h is actually quite good, it will pull you up hills at 25km/h easily and let you run on flat ground at 40+ which makes it a viable option for those who want to have quicker transport than a regular bike.

It's not really good enough to suggest just run it illegally if you really want more take up of electric bikes. I have a colleague who bought a legal 25km/h ebike because I'd talked it up, I'm sure he'd love some better top speed and I know for a fact he would never go for the illegal option. See cop slow down, fair enough but who cares about a small fine? Get in a tangle with a pedestrian or another cyclist and you could face all sorts of very expensive (like the rest of your life) problems because you were illegal.

A petition will show that there is more support than just a person or a manufacturer or a lobby group when presented to a politician.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 26 2017 4:34am
by Tom L
Scotty T wrote: ...A 350w mid drive that can do up to 45km/h is actually quite good, it will pull you up hills at 25km/h easily and let you run on flat ground at 40+ ...
Those speeds seem rather inflated. 750W mid-drive hardly gets me up my hills faster than 15km/h. On the flat I can do 45km/h at 750W. How do you do this with 350W? In a Velomobile?
flat tire wrote:...Also, petitions are just about the least effective way ever to make something happen.
Online petitions doubly so.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 26 2017 4:43am
by Lurkin
There's a temptation to compromise because law makers will not tolerate radical change. I get it, an increase in either speed or power is better than no change from the current status quo.

But this fetish with power levels is absurd. Using an ebike to tow a heavy load with 250w? Please. Anyone who has genuinely tried it knows its pretty inadequate and 350w is not much better. Is it really effective if it can be manipulated with the flip of a switch? Is power level really the danger? This becomes immediately relevant to anyone using a bike trailer in lieu of a fossil fuel vehicle.

Similarly, nonelectric bikes have no speed restriction other than that on the road here.... road bikes are often ridden on the bike paths as if they are part of tour de france! I'm not in a rush or trying to prove something on the way to work, given I have a higher average speed I have no need to run red lights, cut cars off or conduct any of the other undesirable cyclist behaviour whilst on an ebike..... why am I agreeing to a different restriction again?

Why not pick something feasible for everyone involved?

Limit speed based on jurisdiction regardless of method of transport.
Dangerous driving laws to take care of hazardous acceleration/being a dill.
Scrap the fetish with power levels.

Done.

/flame suit on.

I imagine the petition is to try and stimulate discussion for a movement for change, rather than an expectation for change to immediately occur.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 26 2017 8:58pm
by Scotty T
Tom L wrote: Those speeds seem rather inflated. 750W mid-drive hardly gets me up my hills faster than 15km/h. On the flat I can do 45km/h at 750W. How do you do this with 350W? In a Velomobile?
Pedal :) I can easily pull 25km/h up a short steep climb, or a longer more mellow climb on my 350w hub drive. Obviously longer steep hills (which I just don't have on my commute) are a different story. I think 40km/h is not unreasonable for a 350w mid drive if you put in some pedalling effort. I can sit on 30 under my own power on a normal bike, but my hub drive tops out at 32 so I don't have experience of 350w mid drive speeds on the flat with the pedaling effort I generally put in.
Lurkin wrote: Scrap the fetish with power levels.

I imagine the petition is to try and stimulate discussion for a movement for change, rather than an expectation for change to immediately occur.
Yes and yes.

I totally agree power rating is bullshit. My 350w on the flat while pedaling draws under <100w and when I run it unlimited it will draw >900w peak load so it's a meaningless farce. That's something I would have made more clear in the petition and I will be keeping in contact with Ewan to put my views and the feedback I get here and on social media where I am sharing this. That said 1kw is getting a bit too much for your average Joe to jump on and ride and I think that kind of power definitely needs consideration of braking and construction to avoid dangerous bikes.
Lurkin wrote:road bikes are often ridden on the bike paths as if they are part of tour de france!
45km/h is an actual TDF rider, at their top speed on the flat, most weekend warriors would struggle to maintain that but I agree that they aren't going slow and certainly much faster than 25km/h. I think for average Joe 40km/h would be reasonable on a bike path legal rig as that is no faster than a fit and fast road bike rider.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 26 2017 10:48pm
by flat tire
A top sprinter in the TDF can hit 45 MILES PER HOUR. Not KPH.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 27 2017 7:27pm
by Scotty T
flat tire wrote:A top sprinter in the TDF can hit 45 MILES PER HOUR. Not KPH.
Can't cruise that fast for several km though.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 27 2017 11:18pm
by Hillhater
:shock: Pedal !!
You are overlooking those of us who find any significant pedal input for more than a few mins , physically impossible. And the thought of pedaling up a serious hill is just inconceivable. This is why some of us have turned to Ebikes.
But i agree, it should be a speed restriction not a power based figure which is near impossible to police anyway
45- 50 km/h (30 mph) is a fair click on a bike, but is not uncommon for many cyclists with a tailwind or a decent downhill and you dont want to have to use the brakes to much.
Any faster can be risky on standard bicycle equipment , or for cyclists without suitable road experience.
I suspect the authorities are more interested in finding a way to extract money/taxs from cyclists than fiddling with power levels, so some form of licience/rego/insurance trade off deal, may be the way to get some concessions.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 28 2017 2:27am
by HY10
40k is plenty for most
750w should be the requirement for road use
Protecting the goober as always comes first.

Re: 45km/h pedelec petition for Aussies

Posted: Apr 28 2017 8:24pm
by anotherkiwi
When I was running my "250" W GSM mid drive unrestricted (no speed sensor) the GPS was showing 42-45 km/h on the flat. The problem with that kind of speed on what is seen as a push bike is car drivers, they expect you to be doing half that speed so they will pull out in front of you. That is why s-pedelecs have daytime running lights. I prefer 35 km/h, more relaxed ride and you get better range too.

My next build is a velomobile and that will run unrestricted eventually with a 250 W, 25 A BBS02 8)