Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

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Reflex439   10 µW

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Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Reflex439 » Apr 27 2017 2:08pm

I hope this isn't too long, but wanted to make sure I had enough info from the start.

I like to ride, but as age creeps upon me, I don’t ride as much as the hills take more of a toll on me and tire me out quicker. Having an assist, as well as the ability to extend my trips with an electric motor sounds very appealing.
Here is how I would end up using the bike, and looking for advice on how to convert it. Bike details are noted below;

-Augment my travels in a Class B camper van for a 10K mile road trip, coast to coast. Mostly off the grid, so I’d have to rely on my generator for charging (Onan 2800w, 30amps).

-Would be transported on rear bike rack the entire trip (would purchase a cover to keep it dry/clean)

-When visiting a new city, I would use it as a touring bike, perhaps up to 20 miles at most (would limit distance based on terrain type)

-Would normally help pedal for most trips to extend range and get one some extra exercise, but in hot/humid climate when I don’t want to arrive sweaty, or after returning from a strenuous hike, I may rely more heavily on the electric motor and accept shorter range.

-Trail bike for easy trails, not serious mountain biking, again 10-20 miles at most, 20% or so easy to moderate hills.

-Backup in case of vehicle breakdown on back desert dirt roads. Since I could be 20-30miles from a town, or 5-15 miles off a major highway, minimum would be a 20 mile range to at least get me to the highway in a pinch with me doing my part.

-At home, quick runs to the store a couple miles away for groceries. A moderate hills on the return trip tire me out too quickly, but the flats are fine.

I’ve seen the Bafang BBSHD and BBS02 kits. Would these be reasonable choices on a 2003 Canondale Jekyll 400 bike I currently have? Would it require any difficult mods to the bike, or is it mostly assembly and bolt on? If so which kit is better for my uses above? If not, any other conversion kit recommendations? I assume disc brakes would be one required mod? And what compatible batteries and chargers should I be looking at?

For batteries and chargers, I am very familiar with LiPos, LiFe, and Li-ion technologies as I use 12S 50v 6aHr LiPos for my RC helicopter pulling 140amps at peak discharge. So I’ve had to spend some time understanding the charging and maintenance needs.

Since I would mostly be using the bike on road trips, and needing to run the generator to charge, I would prefer to fast charge the batteries. Plugging them in for a slower overnight charge is not an option except at home.

I know barely enough to be dangerous here. But willing to spend the time to research and learn. Just need some pointers to get me off in the right direction. Any help appreciated. Lots of reading here in my future.

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Rassy   10 MW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Rassy » Apr 27 2017 2:56pm

Sounds like a good project with practical expectations. I love my trike equipped Bafang 500W 48V BBS02. I use a 10AH LiFeP04 battery and my range is virtually unlimited since the trike is very easy to pedal without any assist. I normally leave the BBS02 on assist levels 1 or 2 and just cruise along at about 10 MPH, always pedaling for exercise but also enjoying the ride.

One thought on charging, how about using a little inverter that just plugs into your 12 volt system and lets you use your regular charger while you are driving, which would not only cut down on the need to run the generator but also help keep you from having to sit around waiting for the charge to complete. Plus it would always be ready to go should the need arise while on the road.

One issue some have had with the BBSxx systems on regular bikes is the chain alignment, which is a non-issue on a tadpole trike because of the extra long chain. An IGH like a Nexus8 eliminates the problem.
-Rassy-
One Tadpole Trike equipped with a Bafang BBS02
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=69419
One Delta Trike equipped with a Bafang BBS02
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1291260

mark5   100 kW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by mark5 » Apr 27 2017 3:27pm

Reflex439 wrote:Since I would mostly be using the bike on road trips, and needing to run the generator to charge, I would prefer to fast charge the batteries. Plugging them in for a slower overnight charge is not an option except at home.
How are you charging for RC now? Might read up on how others bulk charge. Examples:

kiwipete: Some questions re LiPo, bulk charging and BMS
dogman dan: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 40#p840955
Ykick: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 40#p840973

motomech's setup:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=125
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1150704
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1173448

Ykick on cheaper LED driver power supply bulk charger (Mean Well CLG-150-48A LED Driver Power Supply):
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 6#p1254223

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Reflex439   10 µW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Reflex439 » Apr 27 2017 5:02pm

Rassy wrote:Sounds like a good project with practical expectations. I love my trike equipped Bafang 500W 48V BBS02. I use a 10AH LiFeP04 battery and my range is virtually unlimited since the trike is very easy to pedal without any assist. I normally leave the BBS02 on assist levels 1 or 2 and just cruise along at about 10 MPH, always pedaling for exercise but also enjoying the ride.
I like to ride for exercise as well, but have mostly stopped due to the hills around my home. Having an assist to ease the pain will get me out more, and extend my range, making it far more likely I'll bike vs drive. And using an e-bike as my secondary transportation for my road trips makes it even more appealing!

mark5 wrote:How are you charging for RC now? Might read up on how others bulk charge.
Currently I am charging my RC helicopter batteries via 120V into a two 12v 1400w computer power supplies in series for 24v, using a Cellar PowerLab8. I balance charge two 6s5300mah batteries in parallel then combine them in series to create a 12s5300mah 50v helicopter battery pack. I typically charge them at 3C, and have them ready in about 20-25 minutes. The helicopter runs about 30A continuous with peaks to 140A with a 160A elec speed controller.

I run the generator in the RV since the inverter is only good to 600w, but the generator only needs to run about 25 minutes. After 5-10 cycles in the 12s configuration, I’ll balance charge each pack independently to insure all cells are balanced.

I would use the same charge setup for the e-bike if I could, but the charger is only good for 8s to 40A. Unless I build my own packs, and was content with splitting them up for parallel charging and individual balancing. Would rather not go that route and add more individual batteries to manage as ‘sets’ to my already vast array of RC packs. But its an option.

With that said, I am not familiar yet with the charge times of say the Luna BBS02 or BBSHD kits. Will look into the charge times on those, and the possibility of updating the inverter, and adding a second battery if needed, to the RV.

Thanks both of you for the info. Uncharted waters for me, but will be a fun journey.

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ddk   1 MW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by ddk » Apr 27 2017 6:29pm

Been there; done that!

Get another battery if you don't already have a "house" battery. Think 100 Ah or bigger.
then instead of using an inverter to go 12V dc>120V ac>12V dc> charger save yourself some power and run the charger directly from the house battery.
Invest in a small 200W-300W 12V solar charging system. It would extend your stay times parked in the middle of nowhere and reduce the amount of generator "on" time (save your gas for travel eh?) while charging your house battery(s) during your daylight non-drive times. And the house battery(s) charge the bike battery(s) (oh, it's so circular) at any time.

As for the bike:
...pretty much any e-bike with a 15Ah 36-48V battery will suffice for your needs, but if your cycling days are completely over you might consider a 20Ah battery (mine pedaling days are behind me and I just passively pedal now) (for exercise) A mid-drive setup is usually best at hill-climbing, given enough gears, but most hub kits will suffice up to a 10% grade, using a 20-25A controller and a 48V battery

I'd seriously consider a folder I could store inside if I were to do this type of travel again.
...instead I carried a full-sized e-bike on a dual bike carrier mounted on the rear receiver, where the e-bike had to be fully covered/un-covered with every use. (otherwise bad things will happen to the electrics)
...I also carried a regular bike (left uncovered), which I used most often because the tarp/un-tarp procedure for the e-bike was a bit of a huge nuisance.

I hope any of that makes sense. And most of all: have fun while you can.
"How can we play Hot Wheels without lighter fluid? " -Serge

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Reflex439   10 µW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Reflex439 » Apr 27 2017 9:59pm

ddk wrote:Been there; done that!

Get another battery if you don't already have a "house" battery. Think 100 Ah or bigger.
then instead of using an inverter to go 12V dc>120V ac>12V dc> charger save yourself some power and run the charger directly from the house battery.
Invest in a small 200W-300W 12V solar charging system. It would extend your stay times parked in the middle of nowhere and reduce the amount of generator "on" time (save your gas for travel eh?) while charging your house battery(s) during your daylight non-drive times. And the house battery(s) charge the bike battery(s) (oh, it's so circular) at any time.

As for the bike:
...pretty much any e-bike with a 15Ah 36-48V battery will suffice for your needs, but if your cycling days are completely over you might consider a 20Ah battery (mine pedaling days are behind me and I just passively pedal now) (for exercise) A mid-drive setup is usually best at hill-climbing, given enough gears, but most hub kits will suffice up to a 10% grade, using a 20-25A controller and a 48V battery

I'd seriously consider a folder I could store inside if I were to do this type of travel again.
...instead I carried a full-sized e-bike on a dual bike carrier mounted on the rear receiver, where the e-bike had to be fully covered/un-covered with every use. (otherwise bad things will happen to the electrics)
...I also carried a regular bike (left uncovered), which I used most often because the tarp/un-tarp procedure for the e-bike was a bit of a huge nuisance.

I hope any of that makes sense. And most of all: have fun while you can.
I definitely wouldn’t be doing 12V to 120V to 12V to battery, and hence my question in the first place. I’m not sure how the e-bike batteries are wired and what options are available in 12V chargers. All the ones I see being sold with their batteries (say by Luna, etc) are 120V chargers. I guess I just need to understand whats available for 12V, and how the battery management works. I might be able to charge from 12v with one of my RC chargers.

Any advantage of the BBS02 vs the BBSHD with regard to range based on the same battery? I may look into the 20Ah, while I still have some days left in me, the extended range and power could prove useful in terrain with more hills than originally anticipated. I think I would prefer the mid-drive over the hub drive, since if I really help it will be on the hills. I can handle the flats fine, its the hills that will kill me, so I'll side with better hill climbing ability :)

I do have a house battery but I need most of the capacity for house related items. Solar is an option, but I could only manage a single 100w panel due to available roof space, marginal, but better then nothing. My RV is a Roadtrek Class B, with everything in a Class A or C packed into a 20’ van, so space inside is at a premium. But its perfect for my uses and maneuverable anywhere a car can go that I wouldn’t trade for something larger. In fact, I paid a premium for the Class B in that I could have gotten a newer, larger, better equipped Class C or A for the same money! But I really wanted that form factor. After 90 days living out of the van last season, still no regrets on my choice.

A folder won’t do, lack of interior space for something that large. Trap/un-tarp would be more convenient that sleeping with a folding bike in my bed :) It has to live on a rack in the rear of the van, secured, locked, and with a tarp. For perspective, a few pics of my Roadtrek. No space for a folder in there :)

Thanks for all the help. Very useful indeed.

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mark5   100 kW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by mark5 » Apr 27 2017 10:14pm

Reflex, just so it's clear you're not interested in using your RC packs to also run your ebike but instead prefer 18650-format packs?

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by flat tire » Apr 27 2017 10:30pm

RC lipo is way better in my opinion if you have good balance and charge / discharge practices.

Why is it awesome? Low discharge type is highest Wh / kg out there and high C rate variety gives the kind of power and low voltage sag you can only dream about with 18650 of the same capacity. And you can charge the batteries super fast if you need to, like 3C.

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Reflex439   10 µW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Reflex439 » Apr 27 2017 11:29pm

I wouldn’t say I’m not interested in using RC LiPos, I just don’t know yet due to not fully understanding the LiPo vs 18650 vs LiFe pros and cons with it comes to battery management in an e-bike application. I am very familiar with using Lipos from my RC background, at least up to 8s packs. But do understand the technology, good care and proper management, balance charging, series vs parallel, etc. Much will be similar with e-bikes I’m sure, but don’t fully understand yet.

Ideally, I’d love a singe charger that I could plug in the pack, apply power to the charger, and in a couple hours have it properly charged and maintained by its own circuitry. Simple and sweet, low maintenance.

In contrast, my RC process involved taking 8 6s5300 packs, managing them in pairs, charging them in parallel in pairs of two until they are all charged. Before each flight I have to read each battery individually to verify the cells are ok, then set them up in series for the flight. Further, I have to periodically balance charge them every month to be sure all the individual cells are within spec and working properly. A lot more work, but needed to be safe and extend the life of the packs.

With so many airplanes, helicopters, etc, I feel more like a battery management QA supervisor than a RC pilot LOL. For RC, I don’t mind as its part of the hobby. But I’d like to simplify where I can if possible.

For the e-bike I prefer something easy as it serves as a transportation solution more than a hobby. Although fun, low maintenance and management would be nice. I need to evaluate the pros and cons of each to finally make a decision on which way to go with regard to the batteries.

mark5   100 kW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by mark5 » Apr 28 2017 12:19am

Reflex439 wrote:Ideally, I’d love a singe charger that I could plug in the pack, apply power to the charger, and in a couple hours have it properly charged and maintained by its own circuitry. Simple and sweet, low maintenance.
A 18650-type pack would be just the the thing for easy use and low maintenance. As long as everything works like it should and an issue doesn't develop with a cell or the BMS.

Should you decide to use the RC batteries you already have these threads, along with the previous ones listed, might be useful:

teslanv's Bafang BBS02 750W Mid Drive on Craigslist Hardtail
uses 12S 10Ah lipo & good wiring pictures
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=56512

dogman's Icecube57 Lipo battery harness review. 4 battery set.
a harness design to reduce battery charging effort
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =4&t=32096

Raged   1 kW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Raged » Apr 28 2017 12:40pm

Reflex439 wrote:I wouldn’t say I’m not interested in using RC LiPos, I just don’t know yet due to not fully understanding the LiPo vs 18650 vs LiFe pros and cons with it comes to battery management in an e-bike application. I am very familiar with using Lipos from my RC background, at least up to 8s packs. But do understand the technology, good care and proper management, balance charging, series vs parallel, etc. Much will be similar with e-bikes I’m sure, but don’t fully understand yet.

Ideally, I’d love a singe charger that I could plug in the pack, apply power to the charger, and in a couple hours have it properly charged and maintained by its own circuitry. Simple and sweet, low maintenance.

/snip

For the e-bike I prefer something easy as it serves as a transportation solution more than a hobby. Although fun, low maintenance and management would be nice. I need to evaluate the pros and cons of each to finally make a decision on which way to go with regard to the batteries.
Since you're familiar with LiPo, you can appreciate the simplicity of big power bricks and less wiring. A plug and play solution just involves a BMS and the right charger. The BBS02 power output caps out at about 25A so you need a 25-30A BMS to sufficiently power the motor.

I personally run 14S (higher volts) on the BBS02 with this BMS : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/14S-lit ... 0.0.ZRytWr

Once it's wired up, you simply plug in 1 cable to charge. Once charging is finished you unplug and ride away. No teardowns, changing harness etc.
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Reflex439   10 µW

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Re: Looking for some advice on a conversion kit.

Post by Reflex439 » May 07 2017 8:30am

Once it's wired up, you simply plug in 1 cable to charge. Once charging is finished you unplug and ride away. No teardowns, changing harness etc
Yes, that sounds like the ticket :)

Now I just need to see if my Cannonade Jekyll 400 will accept a BBSxx motor without any modifications. I researched upgrading to disk brakes and that should be an easy task. Will have to research what needs to be done to get the BBSxx motor installed and setup properly. Hopefully no major mods pushing me to get a different bike instead. I do like the Jekyll, full suspension, comfortable, and we have some mileage together :)

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