Will this setup give me insane watt?

Hello,

Me and a friend of mine is gonna try something for fun, not for motor endurance

Will this work.
-48volt 1600watt motor running at 72volt 60amp 2000 watt controler.

https://www.amazon.com/Three-speed-Brushless-Controller-Anti-theft-Scooter/dp/B00L7Q0T7K
http://www.hyperpowersports.com/products/brushless-1600-watt-48v-motor-w-mouting-plate.html

Will we then be gaining 2400watt?

Will this controller also go above 2000watt if we feed it more volt?

And will the controler give us instant 72volt and 60amp if we give full throttle, or are these built in with safety features which doesent allow this?

Most controllers will feed a lot of power for a short burst on a start, before the program start limiting the Amps to its set level. This power burst on a hard start (or hard acceleration) is limited only by the battery and controller/wiring/connectors resistance. Usually it is very short, but programmable controllers let you set the delay before Amp limiting does engage.

Also, if you want a controller to feed high power, you can upgrade by lowering its impedance (bigger wiring, beefed traces), and trick its program with shunt mod. Motors can pull a lot of current. Their rated power is the continuous watts they can stand without overheating, on a bench test over a long period of time. In full air flow, at high speed for a short time, they can stand 5 to 10 times that rated power. The limit is the heat. Once you know the limit, you can optimise the performance by tuning your system to come as close as possible to the limit.

I can't tell if the motor has halls or not, but it appears that the controller is not a sensorless controller, so if the motor doesn't have hall sensors, the controller won't run it. As for the power, it's a 60A controller, so it will draw a max of ~5000W with a 72V battery. There are much cheaper controller options available in both sensored and sensorless controllers.
https://evfittinggreentime.aliexpress.com/store/group/24-mosfet-type/313864_259098441.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.nTC4bm

Aha.
You say the controller will feed the motor 5000watt @ 72v.
But the controller is rated at 2000w. Will it still deliver the 5000w to the motor?
The motor is also rated @ 1600w but is that the safe zone? Will the motor also be capable of example 3000w at the cost of less durability?

Those controllers you linked. Will the 80amp controller be even more powerfull than the one i linked? And will that work on the motor i linked?
Any other motor which will fit the 80amp controller?
Would be awesome with 5000-10000w setup on 72v. If you guys know of any such setup please link
Its for an electric scooter. Not a bike

A motor rated 1500w can be fed 10Kw for acceleration bursts, no problem once you know the limit when it does start overheating. I explained in my previous answer, how to do it. If you are not sure about estimating overheat limit, install a thermistor inside your motor to know for sure.

A high performance system is a combination: battery that can deliver high power, controller mod to feed high power, wires and connectors to take it, knowledge of your motor limits in standing high power and shedding the heat.

Yeah i understand.

But what sort of controller is capable of giving insane amount of amp for a longer period of time?
And what is the difference between a 48v 1000w motor and a 36v 1000w motor?
Wouldent the 36v motor be even faster AND greater torque with 48v, and then surpassing the 48v 1000w motor?

But say i do buy a controller 72v and 60amp capable and add a 36v motor (1000w) and feed it 72volt lead acid battery.
Do you know how much watt it would produce? And will this be so strong that it will burnout?

The wattage number on most of the generic controllers is roughly related to the continuous output rating. It will put out much more during hard acceleration or hill climbing.
The number on expensive controllers is more likely to be describing a maximum amps limit, that's usually settable under the max.
If you live on the flats with no stops, on starting there will be a big surge in amps until you're​ up to speed, then it tapers off, and nothing overheats.
But if you live in a hilly city like me, and you like to accelerate as hard as possible towards the next stop every single block for miles, or up into the mountains, then things get hot. Maybe it will be the motor first, or the controller, or the wires, etc. It's all how you drive the same 3000 or whatever watt system, and what the weak point is.

Just for some numbers while shopping, 3000w/72v=41.6 amps. But are they measuring that from the battery amps, it going to the motor amps? Who knows? So on startup, it might pull 60 or 70 amps, and there's no way to really tell until you measure it on your actual setup on generic controllers. With expensive controllers, you can usually set the battery and motor current limits separately.

On that first controller you mentioned, then it's 2000w/72v=27.7 amps

Going the other way, 72v*80a=5760 watts.

On one of my setups I got a random used motor from a 48v 600w rated system, then got an eBay 60v 1500w controller that I started running on 72v after a while when it was too slow. It's been run hard for about 9 or 10 thousand miles by now, just for reference. When I finally got around to metering it one day it was pulling about 60 amps every hard pullout at the full 84v of a charged up 72v battery measured on the battery side.

Just know that switching up voltages on a controller doesn't always work unless it's programmable, or can leave you in my position where the cut off voltage of the controller is way too low to protect the batteries so you need some other way to keep it from going too low.

Just saw your last question about 36v vs 48v motors, and it's back to who knows with a generic motor. If it's on a system made to be street legal (20mph most places), then they will both go the same speed. The so called 48v one will have more turns of copper wire in it so it goes less rpm per volt.

But maybe it's designed for a folding bike with 20 inch wheels. Then it needs to go more rpm for the same 20 mph speed, so back to less turns​ of wire.
With expensive motors they usually say how many turns, and how many rpm per volt (kv) and a max rpm so it doesn't fly apart, and no so much by voltage rating. Then also by a max peak and continuous wattage rating..

It can be confusing at first shopping since they describe stuff in lots different terms esp on power ratings.

Usually if you're starting out from scratch, you want to decide what battery voltage you want to run at, as that's the big expensive hard to change part. Then you decide what motor on how fast you want to go, and how fast you want to get there for the voltage you picked, and then a controller to drive the motor the way you want without popping.

Yep. Motors reality have little to do with the spec they are sold for. The heavier it is, the wider the magnets, the bigger the copper coil... will be the important factor of power/heat limitations.

High power controllers are available but generally expansive and difficult if not impossible to mod. That is why I suggest buying simple programmable controllers, that you can mod easily. First important factor is the mosfet resistance, My prefered is the Irbf 4110 that are rated 100v with very low resistance, and pretty common already in many controllers. 12 mosfet 4110 can feed 10 Kw, and a 18 X 4110 can feed 20 Kw, safe bursts. Those numbers can be increased with careful upgrade, experimentation, and some luck because those Chinese boards are not born equal. Upgrade the capacitors for 100v, beef the traces with copper mesh and solder, add solder to the shunt lo lower resistance, upgrade the wires to silicon bigger gauge. The rest is setting the program, experiment and find the optimal settings for your motor limits.

The motor itself can be upgraded too. Bigger phase wires and connectors, and some cooling means ( colling holes, cooling fins, ferrofluid...)

As for the bike, high power and speed would command a good frame, good brakes, good suspension components, good tires... and proper geometry

Yeah, I did it the backwards way. I got a second hand mystery motor with no idea of the kv, hooked it up into a random frame, realized it wasn't fast enough, kept adding batteries in series for more volts until the controller blew, then new controller, then more voltage for more speed.Then I realized the speed was too much for the frame and brakes, so moved the power system onto different frames until I found the perfect one. then loved it so much it was more batteries in parallel for more range. Then some melted motor wires after extended mountain rampages, and a little axle spinning and some custom torque arms, and now its pretty stabilized as a system. So that's how you start with this..

24" kids frame with 60v 12ah lead acid pack





And up with something like this... lol. 72v 41ah lithium pack on a Yuba Mundo.



The only thing that made it all the way is the motor.... 4 tires and 10,000 miles later.

Edit.... just realized the right brake lever made it too... modified to take the oversize cable that goes to the built in drum brake.

"Will this setup give me insane watt?"

No.

I predict smoke is in your future.

Wow. That was alot og good info
But could anyone of you set up a system for me. At about 60/72v.
Controller and motor for scooter which can generate around 5000w and be able to program (maybe not nessesary if its very expensive)
This is for electric scooter. Not bike

The question you are not addressing is how much load will you put that poor motor through?

1, I'd pick the 2000w rated motor first of all. Get the bigger motor if you are going there.

2 If you pick a controller with 60 amps limiting, then on start up, you will see 4000 or more watts till the motor picks up rpm. ( with a battery that can do that, not a 7 ah lead pack, but maybe with 20 ah lead) Then after that, at speed, the motor will pull the wattage needed to overcome the weight, and wind resistance involved. For example, in rough numbers a bike rider uses about 1000w to go 30 mph, 2000 to go 40 mph, and about 4000 to go 50 mph.

3 the load. If you put a heavy enough load on that motor, then it will pull 4000 watts long enough to melt it. 15 min can be quite enough time at that load. My best guess, and its a guess, is that if you weigh 180 pounds, and go 40 mph, you will get hot enough to melt in 45 min or so. Same for if you are doing something like towing a trailer, or you weigh 300 pounds, and you climb steep hills with a too high gear.

Load will be a matter of how much weight, how fast, how steep, and if the gearing ever allows the motor rpm to get to a range where motor efficiency is not horrible. Lug the motor enough with too high gear to get speed, or too much weight without a low enough gearing, and the motor will run at 50% efficiency or less. What does this mean to the motor? Ever looked at a 1500w space heater? those glowing ribbons of wire will be just like inside the motor, if 2000w is being made into heat, and 2000w into motion.

My best advice,, get a grip on your lust for power, or get a motor rated for 4000w. But I see no reason why with the right gearing, you could not have a hell of a fun ride with 3000w, using the 2000w motor. 72v 40 amps controller. This should be capable of 40 mph, if not, go ahead and gear up to that speed. It will be ok, unless you do weigh 300 pounds.

Ohh i understand.
But then i have another question.
I see some motors 36v hare rated for 800w other 1000w.
Some 48v 2000w and other 72v 2000w.
Does that mean that the 48v motor generate more watt with example 60v than the 72v @ 60v?
Or does both give same watt with same amp and volt... but the 48v with greater heat?

Motors don't generate watts... you put watts into them from the controller., so its more how many watts will it withstand and for how long.

The rating is how many watts it can take for certain periods before melting. You have to stop being caught up on the voltage ratings. Without knowing how fast it spins per volt, its all guess work. You could take a so called 48v motor and a so called 72v motor, and maybe they spin at the same speed as each other when fed 60v... or maybe they don't. Remember, they usually sell kits to be semi street legal. So usually higher voltage motors spin slower per volt. So a street legal 72v spins half the speed per volt as one designed for a 36v,system, so they both end up going the same speed.

So if you're after hotrodding a motor for more speed, its usually better the take a lower voltage marketed motor like a 36v (because its made to spin faster for each volt to get to legal speed) and over volt it so it spins faster. But if you take a motor intended for a street legal 72v system, it will spin really slow at 60v. Unless as in your case, you change all that up because you can change the gearing. Then you're into a whole new set of figuring out how fast you want the motor to turn vs how big your gearing reduction is for either better high speed or better burnouts.

For your example though, if you take a 48v 2000w street legal motor and a 72v 2000w street legal one, and feed them with a 60v 2000w controller the main difference wont be in the power output which is coming from the controller... but the 48v one will be spinning a bunch faster, and the 72v one slower.
Since you're able to change the gearing, it generally is better to have the motor turning really fast, and a bigger reduction to the wheel than the other way around.

You're looking at different motors of course... but the first two show how similar they can be with different ratings, and the third (a 48v 750 watt) shows how different ones with roughly the same rating can be.






48v 750 watt rated

Half the time on generic motors they're not even showing the picture of the motor you will actually get, or just pulling a number out of the air on what its rating is.

Yeah. They sure look similar.
I understand. The watt is given to the motor, and the difference is the windings.
But will a 72v 60amp controller rated at 2000w, output more watt if its feed 72v. Or will it just be limited to 2000watt?
Cause ive read that volt multiply amp = watt. So 72 x 60 = 4320watt. Thats double the watt.
Or is it so that when it says 72v 60amp 2000watt controller the 2000w is the safe zone before meltdown. But it will generate alot more uphill at full throttle?

All contollers are feeding more power than their rating spec. This is because current limiting is not instant. If you hit full throttle up a hill, your 60A controller will feed more than 60A for a short time before current limiting does engage. With programmable controllers, you can set this delay and feed a longer time without current limiting. During this delay, your motor will pull as much as it wants, providing your battery is able to deliver.

Then, let's suppose your 60A controller does read the current it is feeding from a shunt that is 1.5 ohm. Adding solder to the shunt will lower its impedance and trick the controller program reading 60A when it is really feeding much more. That is why we beef the traces and use bigger wires, to also lower the impedance of the feeding circuit so it can stand the extra power without overheating.

Would this be possible?
It is a brushed motor and a DC controller.

https://www.banggood.com/10-50V-100A-3000W-PWM-Programable-Reversible-DC-Motor-Speed-Controller-p-1117519.html?rmmds=search

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HMParts-E-Scooter-RC-Elektro-Motor-mit-Halter-36-V-1000-W-MY1020/361957442278?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D9db1b3447264432e908e96e68b2ee3ed%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D361957442278

Add 60v to the controller, then it shouldent be limited amp

Wouldent this be a very fast and aggressiv setup?

Brushed motors are not very efficient. Best for performamce is a big brushless hub motor with hall sensors.

Thanks for SUPERB tips guys
But before i order, will these work together?

Motor
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Brushless-Motor-48-volt-2000-watt-Motor-chain-drive-New-MAF-X2000S-/232169152820?hash=item360e5c2134

Controller
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/24FET-IRFB4110-s-3000W-48-84V-80Amax-BLDC-motor-controller-EV-brushless-speed-controller-sensor-sensorless/313864_522263950.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.NA5Hmr

Are there any controller which has more amp at roughly the same price?
Is it easy to connect to an electric scooter? An i hope it gives me full power amp from start and not slow and easy

Once again, the motor is 48v.
If the controller gives out 80amp from start. and 48v batt connected. Will it then be producing roughly 3840watt?

And do I need to program the controller, or is it preprogrammed so i just can connect it?

Best Regards
Thomas

Yes they will, but it is not the way to build a high power bike unless building is more fun to you than riding. :wink:

If you want to build high power and drive the chain, you will have to work hard and make custom parts. Driving a bicycle chain will not stand a lot of power, I'd say 5000 w is gonna break chain and sprockets pretty often. You will have to work a lot of try and error, many hours of work for each hour riding. Then, after many rebuild and upgrade, you might end up with a bike that is about reliable, in one or two years.

Build with a big hub, you have a reliable high power bike running this summer.

Well. I need to start one place
I will use gokart chain sprocket etc.
What abou tthose other qusetions i asked?

The seller of the motor says:

11 tooth sprocket, it is haw effect and will only work with the correct voltage/wattage, controller.

Is that correct. Or does he say that not to overvolt it?