Question about sensorless controller

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rumme   100 kW

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Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » May 17 2017 9:34am

I'm using the generic YESCOMUSA 1000 watt/ 48 volt motor. Id like to go with a sensorless controller . Can anyone suggest one that isn't expensive ? It only need to handle 48 volt lifepo4....would like to also be able to handle 30 - 60 amps.

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by kingjamez » May 17 2017 10:15am

Why sensorless?

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rojitor   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rojitor » May 17 2017 10:21am

Pm lyen. He might have some.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/membe ... ile&u=1370
Also this one below could do. I used many lyen's and can vouch for them.
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/Greentim ... sstype=600

rumme   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » May 17 2017 11:39am

kingjamez wrote:Why sensorless?
I'm tired of having sensor wires break or short out...wanted to go with 3 simple thick phase wires.

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » May 17 2017 11:45am

rojitor wrote:Pm lyen. He might have some.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/membe ... ile&u=1370
Also this one below could do. I used many lyen's and can vouch for them.
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/Greentim ... sstype=600
Have you tried that sensorless controller from Ali express ? If so, did it hold up well ?

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rojitor   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rojitor » May 17 2017 12:40pm

Nope. I used many lyen's as stated earlier. Some people reported nice quality from greentime store that's why I posted it as well.

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rojitor   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rojitor » May 17 2017 12:44pm

http://lyen.com/ You can see his merchandise here but you better to pm him.

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by motomech » May 17 2017 3:26pm

rumme wrote:
rojitor wrote:Pm lyen. He might have some.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/membe ... ile&u=1370
Also this one below could do. I used many lyen's and can vouch for them.
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/Greentim ... sstype=600
Have you tried that sensorless controller from Ali express ? If so, did it hold up well ?
It's not a case of a sensorless controller being any more or less reliable than a sensored one. It's a case of how reliably does it "sync's up" with the motor.
I have used several sensorless controllers because one of my long-time fav. motors had a Hall failure. They all worked about the same, with a Lyen being the best by a bit.
BUT, they all were NOT 100% reliable to sync-up at start. There are certain situations, like being stopped with the frt. of the bike facing up hill that require a special technique. In that scenario, you have to pedal at least a half a turn before applying the throttle, otherwise, it will not sync-up and the motor will throw a "Hissy Fit". Not the "end of the World", but a hassle none the less.
Frankly, I don't understand the logic of using a sensorless controller with the Halls intact.
Sensored results in a better overall ride.
Last edited by motomech on May 17 2017 3:38pm, edited 2 times in total.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by motomech » May 17 2017 3:35pm

rumme wrote:
kingjamez wrote:Why sensorless?
I'm tired of having sensor wires break or short out...wanted to go with 3 simple thick phase wires.
All my motors have all 7 (or8) motor wires bundled into a heavy protective sheath, are not those 1000 W DD motors the same?
The Hall system failures I have experienced were due to heat or my stupidity in connecting the wires incorrectly.

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

rumme   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » May 17 2017 3:47pm

motomech wrote:
rumme wrote:
rojitor wrote:Pm lyen. He might have some.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/membe ... ile&u=1370
Also this one below could do. I used many lyen's and can vouch for them.
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/Greentim ... sstype=600
Have you tried that sensorless controller from Ali express ? If so, did it hold up well ?
It's not a case of a sensorless controller being any more or less reliable than a sensored one. It's a case of how reliably does it "sync's up" with the motor.
I have used several sensorless controllers because one of my long-time fav. motors had a Hall failure. They all worked about the same, with a Lyen being the best by a bit.
BUT, they all were NOT 100% reliable to sync-up at start. There are certain situations, like being stopped with the frt. of the bike facing up hill that require a special technique. In that scenario, you have to pedal at least a half a turn before applying the throttle, otherwise, it will not sync-up and the motor will throw a "Hissy Fit". Not the "end of the World", but a hassle none the less.
Frankly, I don't understand the logic of using a sensorless controller with the Halls intact.
Sensored results in a better overall ride.

Thanks for the reply. I already assumed that it would be standard procedure to always pedal from a dead stop, then apply throttle, for a sensorless controller...which I already do by habit with my sensored controller . IF THAT IS THE ONLY REAL DRAWBACK, then its acceptable.

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by motomech » May 17 2017 7:14pm

You won't have to pedal every time if you don't want to. Lyen's controller seemed to get more intelligent as time went by.
There really isn't any other disadvantages.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

markz   100 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by markz » Oct 29 2017 8:56pm

I can understand the O.P.'s frustration! Its good to have a sensorless controller as a backup or for testing, or if you really need to get going and you hop on your current rig and its a no go situation, can just plop the senslorless in. I am figuring I need my standard set of connectors that I connect up as soon as I get a controller. Then its an easy swap and go! I was stranded a bit today, an hour of trouble shooting some generic controller with no luck and I just go from hub to putting in mid drive cont. in 10 minutes and go! Mid drive was already installed, just for that situation. With sensorless I never have the problem of starting on an incline.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by dogman dan » Oct 30 2017 7:05am

You only need to roll a half inch forward, as you apply throttle to get a sensorless controller to take off forward with no stutter.

If you let the tire creep back a half inch as you grab throttle, it will stutter, and want to run backwards at first.

But for higher power levels, like 40 amps on up, you really do want halls. AND, you want a motor that does not cook em off. Its not hard to keep your wiring connected, but over juicing a too small motor will leave you having halls issues, because your motor cooks them.

What you need is a controller that runs either way, so if you do have a halls issue, it will still run without them. Grin is one place that has them, and I bet Lyen does too.

rumme   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » Oct 30 2017 10:21am

dogman dan wrote:You only need to roll a half inch forward, as you apply throttle to get a sensorless controller to take off forward with no stutter.

If you let the tire creep back a half inch as you grab throttle, it will stutter, and want to run backwards at first.

But for higher power levels, like 40 amps on up, you really do want halls. AND, you want a motor that does not cook em off. Its not hard to keep your wiring connected, but over juicing a too small motor will leave you having halls issues, because your motor cooks them.

What you need is a controller that runs either way, so if you do have a halls issue, it will still run without them. Grin is one place that has them, and I bet Lyen does too.
I recently bought the LYEN OVERCLOCKER sensorless controller { around $240 } . Ive been running it sensorless at 70 amps max on 72 volt, and it works GREAT...Ive got it set for 70 amps max and 95 amps phase.....running it like this, with low phase amps takes away a bit of the power/torque but my hub motor never gets hot, even at full throttle . I could raise the phase amps to 120/140 and I'm sure the power/ torque would increase a lot, but then I think the motor would run hotter. I don't need to pop wheelies so my current settings work for my needs.

I do find the controller needs good ventilation when running above 40 amps . If it doesn't get good airflow, the controller will get hot. I added a airscoop so it blows air right over top of the controller when moving forward. Works great.
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markz   100 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by markz » Oct 30 2017 12:30pm

Greentime has both sensor and sensorless in ONE controller

rumme   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » Oct 30 2017 1:32pm

markz wrote:Greentime has both sensor and sensorless in ONE controller
I believe my LYEN is also sensor or sensorless...

but I have no desire to ever go back to sensored and 5 hall wires.
sensorless is simplier and I imagine more reliable without worrying about 5 thin hall wires that can be damaged or hall sensors that can be damaged.

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by markz » Nov 09 2017 3:57pm

Just replaced my halls and the tester doesnt show anything. Gotta opener her up and see whats going on, really wished my 48V-84V 15fet 45A Greentime Sensorless controller was here already.

rumme   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » Nov 09 2017 4:18pm

markz wrote:Just replaced my halls and the tester doesnt show anything. Gotta opener her up and see whats going on, really wished my 48V-84V 15fet 45A Greentime Sensorless controller was here already.
I doubt if I will ever go back to a sensored only controller setup ....

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by markz » Nov 09 2017 6:12pm

The first problem for me started when I opened up a perfectly fine and running motor. Next good motor I buy, I aint opening nuffin up!

The second problem for me was when I was in a stupid daze and ripped out my halls. The motor sat for a long long time. What I did is just buy another motor :lol: and rode it for awhile, underwhelmed found a used motor and bought it :lol: I must have 4 or 5 motors now, which are in various states of assembly and repair.

Greentime stated they mailed my controller yesterday or the day before, so I would expect it this coming week, hopefully.

I do like to twist the throttle from a stop and not pedal. Small price to pay.

------------------------------------------------------

Ah Yessssss found the issue at hand, used too small of wire, like 36awg which had plenty of room in the axle, but when I gently pulled the bundle of wire to loosen the amount inside the motor, I must've ripped what was already inside heat shrink. Went and bought some more durable wire, like 24awg for when it comes out of the axle.

I think its still wise to have halls, as my riding style is quite lazy, prefer no pedaling sometimes, even from a stop. I tend to push myself a bit rather then pedal, cuz of the gearing.

Be riding again for this mild weekend.

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by Samson » Nov 11 2017 9:39am

I used a $15 KU63 controller from BMS battery which can run sensorless or with halls. My battery was a 14S2p 18650 charged to 58 Volts. The motor is a small gear motor from Golden Motor. I ran mineral oil in the motor for cooling and 16 Amps max. The controller without hall sensors connected felt the same as when halls were connected. It would start from a stop without complaining. The speed and current on the test stand did not change with and without the halls connected. I have several controllers from 5 years or so ago that do not work as well without the sensors connected, they would all have trouble syncing at startup and some were noisy when running at speed. The KU63 was replaced after being used all summer because the MOSfets are only rated for 60 Volts and the capacitors 63V though it was working fine. I then installed a 6 Fet sensorless only controller from EM3ev with much higher voltage rating and it runs and feels the same as the KU63. It seems there have been significant improvements in sensorless controllers over the last several years. Be aware the KU63 from 2017 is not the same as the KU63 from a few years back in terms of hardware and no doubt software. EM3ev warned me that their sensorless controller may not work well with higher pole count gear motors but it is working fine in my application so far.

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » Nov 11 2017 10:46am

with my lyen sensorless....I DO NOT, have to peddle from a dead stop .....I just chose to do it, out of habit.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by MadRhino » Nov 11 2017 2:40pm

Any sensorless controller can apply power power out of sync at some occasions. When you feed +10kw on a start, you don’t want this for all of your senses. Well, maybe not all of them but... it does make an unpleasant sound, then it does smell bad, then you burn your finger touching it, put it in your mouth and spit, then you see smoked melted stuff and say sh*t...
You can add a 6th sense, for I knew inside of me it would freakin happen. :roll:

Seriously, Lyen does sell a 12X4110 sensored/sensorless controller for cheap. It can be upgraded to feed 10kw phase at 100v, and it did survive a complete riding season. Unplug the halls, it does switch sensorless. I did ride it sensorless for the rest of the winter, and it wasn´t that bad because slow start is a habit on dirty winter streets. Springtime fried at the first hard start. Good backup to have still.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

rumme   100 kW

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by rumme » Nov 11 2017 2:47pm

MadRhino wrote:Any sensorless controller can apply power power out of sync at some occasions. When you feed +10kw on a start, you don’t want this for all of your senses. Well, maybe not all of them but... it does make an unpleasant sound, then it does smell bad, then you burn your finger touching it, put it in your mouth and spit, then you see smoked melted stuff and say sh*t...
You can add a 6th sense, for I knew inside of me it would freakin happen. :roll:

Seriously, Lyen does sell a 12X4110 sensored/sensorless controller for cheap. It can be upgraded to feed 10kw phase at 100v, and it did survive a complete riding season. Unplug the halls, it does switch sensorless. I did ride it sensorless for the rest of the winter, and it wasn´t that bad because slow start is a habit on dirty winter streets. Springtime fried at the first hard start. Good backup to have still.
Yeah , I don't apply hard throttle from dead stops. Doing wheelies doesn't interest me and even though my ebike can do 50+ mph, Ive only done it 1 time on a back road when no cars were around. I guess anyone that want to apply 2-10 kw of power from a dead stop, would need hall sensored controllers.

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Re: Question about sensorless controller

Post by MadRhino » Nov 11 2017 3:17pm

Not only dead stops. Everytime the wheel might have left the ground or backed up, is potentially worse than a dead stop. Uphill stops are tricky, because you are more likely to let the bike back off a bit before starting, and moving the bike uphill is much harder. Yet, it is worse when you are not expecting it, after jumping a curb, pothole, speed bump, rolling stop. For powerful bikes, sensorless would ideally be a mid drive.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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