A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

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RTIII
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A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 16, 2017 11:13 am

(title was supposed to read:)
A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed pupa metamorphizes and emerges from its chrysalis as a modern E-Bike!


In the last week of May, the decision was made to take this old bike and transform it from a relic of the past into a viable part of modern city transportation. It was selected because of its familiarity to the owner (me!), because it was in great condition, and because as an e-bike its former handicaps evaporate. However, the transformation that began then wasn't just to the old bike, but to the bike's owner!

Here it is, barely two weeks later and things are really taking shape now. Back when I started, I was thinking DIY was going to be a lot more engineering on my part, however, what I envisioned for the e-bike world was perhaps true as recently as 5 to 10 years ago, but where the e-bike world is today reflects a transformation in the industry too! You can read what my perceptions were a couple of weeks ago (before I found this place!) here:

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/ma ... ket-system

The emerging butterfly's electrification is based on the Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid-drive, pedal assistance system (no throttle or brake cut-outs) in "48v", 500W. It's already mounted to the bike!

For gearing, vital on a mid-drive, the original was 40T X 52T with a freewheel of 14 - 28. The TSDZ2 comes with a 42T and now that I have it in hand I realize it's got a completely custom gear on there with a built-in offset to the inside to help not expand the driveline. As is, the driveline is in exact, 100% perfect alignment with the freewheel's 14T, and unfortunately, the only choice at adding more chainring is to the outside of the mounting hardware and I'm concerned it'll be too wide. An additional consideration is that the TSDZ2 stops assisting a rider at a cadence of about 90 Pedal-RPM. :-( ... So, gearing has to factor that in. And therefore, I've decided to replace the rear wheel with a free-hub style so I can take a cassette, and I'll be making the wheel myself from a new one and a particular Shimano rear axle. I'll be expanding my rear wheel's anchor points (darn, what are those called again? Not Enough Coffee this AM!), from 122-ish to 130 and adding at least two gears. If I can fit the Shimano 8 gear HG51-aw (11-32), I'll go there, otherwise it'll be a 7 gear Shimano 11-28, with a 52T in front - same as original. This gives me a theoretical cruising at top gear of 34.2 MPH at 90 PRPM, however, I don't anticipate getting up that high as I don't have a deathwish!

The only two open questions about gearing are first, if my chosen rear axle will take the Shimano 8 gear or not. If it won't, I may drop down to a 7 gear instead - fastest to get me going, and in which case, I'll drop the 32 leaving a low-gear of 28 - as was stock. And second, I have to figure out spacing between the two front gears - how far apart are they supposed to be, how am I going to achieve that spacing, and so forth. I bought a FLAT STEEL 52T - should give me the necessary versatility and durability; if it's going to be cocked at an angle, I want something that will take the abuse.

For wheels, I'm sticking with 27" X 1.25" with quick disconnect, but in AL instead of FE based material, and a Shimano rear axle, (130, 36h). I've got new tires, tubes and liner already on hand, wheels expected in a few days, so riding on the old stuff for a while. Owner reports are that the Sta-Tru wheels I've ordered sometimes run true and sometimes they come needing truing - I guess they're supposed to STAY true, not ARRIVE true! In any event, a key reason to get these is the better braking everyone reports. So, I made sure to order up a spoke tool with maximal sizes and that it wouldn't arrive a decade after the wheels (as almost happened!)

For the battery, I agonized over it, really, and when it finally came time to buy, everyone's out of stock of the cell type I wanted (!!) - the LG MJ1 series. I ended up with the number 2 battery type (33G) in a 13S4P arrangement as a pre-made unit 12.4Ah. Even Luna was out... I think I made the right call - or at least not a bad call - on which vendor to use because I also ordered the charger from them when I found the charger manufacturer said they were out of them. It turned out they drop-ship from the manufacturer, so THEY were out, too, but didn't know it yet. And to my surprise, the vendor went to bat for me and convinced the manufacturer to dig one up from somewhere for me. ... That vendor is EM3ev.

While not related to my emerging butterfly, the battery CHARGER is well worth mentioning. As a scientist, I'm deeply caught up in the very technical and after reading all the battery and charger specifications, I realized most of the chargers harm the batteries and in fact have apparently created this mythology that you have to go with an 80% or 90% charge to get longevity. Well, that's just wrong. The reality is that there are (at least) three key problems here: 1) if you take the time to READ and UNDERSTAND the specification sheets from the manufacturers of all the various 18650 cells, they do not all have the same charging characteristics, with the best ones (like the MJ1) tending to have unique requirements. And 2) charging these cells properly typically requires having a constant current and constant voltage for most of the charge cycle, and then reduce both at some point, and this requires sophistication. The MJ1, in particular, calls for a crisp cut-out point of the charge cycle that's unique to it. And 3) as a sealed battery, these are prone to "cooking" by the charger - that is, they're very sensitive to over-charging because there's no place to vent to. Add in to the mix an unsophisticated charger and you end up with damaged batteries. If you cut the charging voltage down a bit, you avoid the cooking, and this is where the 80% / 90% charge to gain life mythology is born; that is, if you're going to be unsophisticated about it, you need to have a lower charging voltage to get away with it - it's not a % of charge thing, it's the intelligence (or lack of it) of the charger. INSTEAD, I have chosen a better battery charger! Check out this unit:

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... iator.html

Pay attention to the graphs and so on in their literature. While they don't say so directly, if I were wrong about any of this you would not need this kind of sophistication and they would not have created it or found a market so strong for it that several vendors are reporting they're out of stock on it!

OK, now, back to the TongSheng TSDZ2. Obviously I haven't run it yet, but it appears to be very well made and installation was a breeze. I spent more time taking off the old crankset than installing the motor! It comes with a special tool to tighten the main nut and I'm darn glad it does, too! I got mine with the VLCD5 display and it comes ready to plug in a throttle and motor cut-out brake levers, as well as a few other things. Even though I want the assistance, I've ordered a throttle for emergency circumstances, such as injury or whatever.

I'm now working out issues related to the mounting of the parts on the frame. I'm a very picky engineer - it has to not only work very well but also look great. So, things can take time. One part of working well is that I I want to be able to remove the VLCD5 for whenever I'm forced by circumstance to park in risky locations - don't want the eye-candy attracting unwanted attention. Some idiot might steal it even though it would be useless to anyone else if they cut the wires off - they might mistake it for some kind of bike computer that could fit any bike. So, that means I have to be able to disconnect it easily yet TongSheng mounted wires long enough to go all the way to the motor onto it - so you'd have to un-feed and re-feed it when taking it off. And that means a big risk to open it up and re-do the wiring! But I think I must...

Another factor is that the bike has to be utilitarian - a grocery getter. So, in these two-ish weeks, I've designed and fabricated a rear luggage rack that bolts solidly to the frame. It has FIVE M6 attachments (two each at the rear axle, one at the rear brake mounting) and ONE M8 attachment (at the seat-post clamp). It could probably take 500 lbs of load without sweating it. To this I've added a removable attachment to mount an oversize plastic milk-crate on the right side, like a saddle bag. This was chosen because it will hold TWO full standard grocery bags. For heavier items, I made a removeable atttachment for a wire-type milk-crate directly on top of the luggage rack. And on the left, I haven't decided yet - a second larger sized milk crate? ... To test the system, last Sunday I took the bike 16 miles (according to Google Maps) to a friend's birthday party in the park surrounding Lake Merritt in Oakland. I went laiden with an ice chest with two 6 packs of beer (plus ice!), an additional 6 pack of beer, a back pack with maybe 8 to 10 lbs of gear including bike lights, cups, bottle opener, jacket, etc, and TWO folding chairs, wrapped in a blanket and attached on the left via three bungee cords - one to keep the chairs in the blanket, the other two to attach to the luggage rack. ... The system made it fine but I did learn that the milk-crate needs better attachment. And BOY did I get attention! Lots of people admired so much gear on a bike! ... And I also learned I need a rack in front to help keep the balance of weight under control!

And, she needs a traditional type kickstand - something that'll hold it upright while loading and unloading. And fenders. And a better seat. And a better lock! ... But the metamorphosis is all coming along!

...Having the motor with no battery, my situation at the moment, makes me like the kid at Christmas who got his favorite toys but whose parents forgot to buy the batteries! Doah! Anticipation! But the butterfly hasn't quite finished pupation; I have all manner of parts (and a few tools) on the way and I expect to have most everything in hand by about June 25 or thereabouts.

One of these days, I'll post pictures!
Last edited by RTIII on Jun 16, 2017 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RTIII
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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed Pupa metamorphizes

Post by RTIII » Jun 16, 2017 2:24 pm

As breadcrumbs for those who might follow, here are some details of the vendor and product choices I made that might help someone else.


Motor system


I went with a mid-drive for its sophistication and class as well as efficiency. It has better hill-climbing ability than a hub motor and more versatility than any direct-drive. Among choices, I went with the TongSheng TSDZ2 because it's a Pedal Assist System; the torque system simply ADDS torque when you add torque, and therefore it doesn't turn your bike into a moped, which means I get the exercise I want / need. I went with the 48v / 500W because I'm a big guy (6' 3") with a heavy bike and will be carrying luggage, so power is required.

I went with the VLCD5 version (instead of Xh-18) because of my handle bars and because it has accessory options the Xh-18 doesn't have.

I bought from these people because of price and because others reported success. Mine was $290:

http://www.auto-ebike.com/index.php?mai ... ts_id=1802

While ESL was a problem, I got what I ordered in good time. I would order again and just know their English is poor and communications may be frustrating at times.

Battery

I didn't get what I wanted, but it's good advice to get as much energy storage (expressed as Ah, amp-hours) as you can find and afford because packs degrade because charges may not be complete, because you may change plans or use more than intended, and, many battery management systems and motor control systems cut out at around 3v (per cell). There are many versions of the Lithium-ion battery out there, the 18650 is by far the most popular and lowest price per Ah. As of this writing, the LG brand MJ1 is the highest storage on the market, but it can be out of stock and is counterfeited often, but even with the MJ1, it appears to get its extra capacity via deep-discharge - the only one whose specification sheet I read that officially slated it to go to 2.5V and survive! So, if the battery management system or motor controller cuts you out at 3V, you have excess capacity you cannot ever use, though it very well may help battery longevity to not deeply discharge as far as they claim.

Only go with a reputable vendor - ask around! I went with this pack with the 33G cells due to price and availability and this vendor due to recommendations. Looks like it was a good call:

https://em3ev.com/shop/preditor-l-47v-8 ... e-battery/

Charger

I've studied the specifications for at least five different 18650 cells and unfortunately, they all vary in terms of what their official charging requirements are. Perhaps more unfortunately, they all require altering charge voltage and current during the charge cycle. If you keep the voltage at what some less technical people call 100% you WILL over-charge virtually every cell. That voltage is 4.2v per cell. If instead you drop it as the manufacturer calls for as the battery approaches full, you'll get a properly full cell at 4.1v. And, if you don't also attend to charge current as it fills, you can also damage the cells, so voltage is not the whole story. To get around this, many battery chargers give you a so-called "80%" and / or "90%" option at the flick of a switch. Do Not Be Fooled. What's happening is making up for having a stupid charger by simply lowering the peak voltage below 4.2. This increases charging time with the attempted tradeoff of battery longevity.

Note also that many people talk as if 4.2v (per cell) is the "fully charged" voltage - IT IS NOT! 4.2v is the CHARGING voltage. And, cells have some capacitance so they'll look like 4.2v when freshly (and fully) charged but that's what's known as the "float" voltage and it will fairly quickly dissipate. Lithium ion batteries, by their chemistry, are completely full at 4.1v. This is very clear from the literature. They all have this trait.

As noted above, different versions of the 18650 have different charging criteria. TYPICAL characteristic for charging requires 4.2 v to charge when deeply discharged and then later in the charging cycle the voltage should be dropped to 4.1v per cell. Again, this is all very clear from the specification sheets for the various cells - and again, they're not all identical in this regard. If you don't have a charger that charges according to YOUR cell's manufacturer's directions, then use the 80% or 90% strategy as a stupid-charger way of not over-charging as a stupid-charger otherwise will do.

And all this is why I'm investing in this charger:

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... iator.html

Not cheap, but great technology. You can create your own charging profiles if you want! Read the literature! Worth The Money (so long as it doesn't fail prematurely, etc).

Drivetrain: Gearing / Chain / Wheels / Hubs

Know what the issues are for YOUR motor system by reading up owner reports! ... The TSDZ2 has two pertinent issues: 1) it's known to wipe out "the blue gear" with too much power applied in too low a gear, and 2) It's known that the pedal-assist system drops out (ie stops assisting) beyond about 90 Pedal-RPM. You should DO THE MATH to figure out what that means to you, given your wheels diameter, chainrings (front gears) and rear gearing. To help, I created this Microsoft Excel / OpenOffice Calc format spreadsheet - download and tailor to meet YOUR needs:

http://ScienceTools.com/misc/BicycleWheelGearChart.xls

Know also that the TSDZ2 has a 5 X 110 BCD sizing for the front ring and comes with a 42T. My pupa started with a 40 and a 52T. 42T works out close enough to 40 as to be reasonably identical but it's not a reasonable substitute for both gears. So, I am adding a steel 52T - it's not mounted yet, I have to do the offset work, etc, however I have confidence I'll get it working. If you're doing this, you'll need the right mounting hardware and I recommend a type that has female hex sockets for tightening instead of the "classic" inept slots it comes with. The TSDZ2 has an aluminum plate with the 42T mounted on the inboard side and it's a highly inboard offset gear as well. On the outboard side it has a chain guard. There's not much room on the inboard side for another gear, but MAYBE they can coexist on the left side - I'll find out!

In the rear, my bike measured 122mm between the mounting anchors for the rear axle, and it originally runs the "freewheel" style rear gearing - old school. As there are no modern freewheels in a gearing that works for me AND from a reliable vendor (Shimano stopped production in the mid 1990s), and as there are no cassette systems available on pre-made 27" rims, I'm making my own to get the rear gearing that works for me. The hard part is finding a rear axle. I went with a Shimano Nexave FH-T300 Silent Clutch Rear Free Hub 130mm 36H 7-Speed Silver. I will spread the frame out from 122mm to 130mm using a hydraulic ram intended for automotive bodywork repair - 8mm is just a bit under 3/8" (6mm is nearly exactly 1/4"), so each side will see less than 3/16" change - not much. This rear hub is available on ebay right now for $19.99 with free delivery. Note that I chose this particular one because it's the narrowest free hub, gives me at least 7 gears and its spoke count is 36 (the H in 36H stands for hole!), which matches the rims I found, from Sta-Tru Wheel. I found these new on Amazon for less than $100 the pair, delivered, in aluminum with quick release. Now I just have to "re-lace" the new spindle into the rear wheel. Here's that axle:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-Nexave- ... D100282%26

For rear gears, I'm going with Shimano again, the CS-HG41-7 It has 11-28T gearing. From slowest, here's the comparison:

Stock: 28, 24, 20, 17, 14
HG41-7: 28, 24, 21, 18, 15, 13, 11

As you can see, the tallest two are identical and the new one goes a LOT taller, with the middle spread a little better, just one tooth different. In theory this gives me a 34.2 MPH top speed with assist at 90 Pedal-RPM. Not bad! :D

Here's a link to the one I got:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-CS-HG41 ... 1474192371

Of course, I bought a set of new tires, tubes, and spoke liners - interestingly, the same brand, size and color as this bike had when new! :lol: ... The tires / tubes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-Kenda-K3 ... 2714820472

And, I bought a new chain, even though I may not need one - also got a chain wear measurement tool. Here are the chain and chainring mounting hardware:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G ... UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N3 ... UTF8&psc=1

Accessories

In my view, this is required for the bike; a "traditional" kickstand! They show it with a ruler - should work on a 27" wheel.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XV ... UTF8&psc=1

I got a Hand Throttle I intend to use as an emergency only item, in case I'm injured and can't pedal. I got it from AliExpress.com. Find it here - sans brake cut-out switches:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/36V-48V ... 7a90fc92c3

Budget

$290.00 TSDZ2
$060.00 Shipping the TSDZ2 from Hong Kong
$318.00 Battery: 47V (13S4P) Preditor L"47V" 12.4Ah (13S4P-33G)
$077.30 Shipping for the battery
$318.00 Charger: Grin Cycle Satiator Charger, "48v" version, with accessories
$026.80 Shipping for the charger
$019.95 Rear axle w free hub & quick disconnects - Shimano Nexave FH-T300 130mm 36H
$018.35 Cassette gears - Shimano CS-HG41-7 11-28T
$045.84 Front Wheel - Sta-Tru silver alloy 27" X 1.25", quick disconnect
$048.90 Rear Wheel - Sta-Tru silver alloy 27" X 1.25", quick disconnect (freewheel type)
$032.59 Tires, tubes, rim strips w shipping: 2-Pack Kenda K35 Gumwall 27x1-1/4"
$015.00 Chainring, 5 X 110 BCD, steel
$009.50 Chainring bolt set, TruVativ, in steel, hex both sides, with spacers
$029.99 Kickstand (see link above)
$019.79 Thumb-Throttle (see above)
---------------------------------------------
$1330.01 Grand Total (so far!)

(NOT DONE HERE, just saving to ensure I don't lose all my writing!)

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Norton
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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by Norton » Jun 18, 2017 10:17 am

Thanks for the detailed post !!!
Following it now!

RTIII
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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 18, 2017 2:19 pm

Norton wrote:Thanks for the detailed post !!!
Following it now!
Thanks, Norton!

What I'm up to now is trying to determine how to make the VLDC5 removable from the system (for purposes of theft prevention) without undue hastle.

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by Rube » Jun 18, 2017 3:08 pm

RT thank you for explaining the thought process and evaluation of constraints relevant to your needs. The analysis is a valuable example of throughly considering needs, options and information sources. The result is a system using products from cutting edge suppliers. All the hours of research payoff :D

RTIII
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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 18, 2017 7:52 pm

Rube wrote:RT thank you for explaining the thought process and evaluation of constraints relevant to your needs. The analysis is a valuable example of throughly considering needs, options and information sources. The result is a system using products from cutting edge suppliers. All the hours of research payoff :D
Thanks, Rube,

You and Norton are too kind! :D I must say that this web site, this forum, has been invaluable, and if I can in some small way give back to the community, that's my intention. ... I have friends already telling me I should go into business doing conversions! :lol:

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by wesblog » Jun 18, 2017 9:10 pm

I just built a similar bike with the TSDZ2 mid-drive 500w motor and a 48v 10ah battery. I was planning to convert my Gravity Avenue from Bikes Direct ($269), but after removing the crankshaft I realized the crank hole had a blockage that made the motor ever so slightly too large.

I also learned that changing the crankshaft on a bike is a pain in the ass.

I put everything back together on the Gravity Avenue and used my Giant Escape 2 instead. This time the motor fit like a glove. I've only gone on short test rides but the motor is amazing -- nearly completely silent and plenty of power to climb San Francisco hills. This was my first ebike conversion so it took me several hours to get everything setup but I am happy with the results and it didn't cost much.

Tongsheng 500w middrive motor ($310): http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_pa ... ts_id=1780
48V 10Ah Samsung lithium battery ($250): http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_pa ... ts_id=1771
Giant Escape 2 ($300 used on craigslist)

Total after shipping was about $900

Here are a few photos: http://imgur.com/a/0AxyA

RTIII
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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 18, 2017 11:58 pm

wesblog wrote:I just built a similar bike with the TSDZ2 mid-drive 500w motor and a 48v 10ah battery. I was planning to convert my Gravity Avenue from Bikes Direct ($269), but after removing the crankshaft I realized the crank hole had a blockage that made the motor ever so slightly too large.

I also learned that changing the crankshaft on a bike is a pain in the ass.

I put everything back together on the Gravity Avenue and used my Giant Escape 2 instead. This time the motor fit like a glove. I've only gone on short test rides but the motor is amazing -- nearly completely silent and plenty of power to climb San Francisco hills. This was my first ebike conversion so it took me several hours to get everything setup but I am happy with the results and it didn't cost much.

Tongsheng 500w middrive motor ($310): http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_pa ... ts_id=1780
48V 10Ah Samsung lithium battery ($250): http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_pa ... ts_id=1771
Giant Escape 2 ($300 used on craigslist)

Total after shipping was about $900

Here are a few photos: http://imgur.com/a/0AxyA
AH! You were braver than I was about ordering a battery from these folks - I got the same unit for $290 because I started the process before they raised the price, apparently. But I wasn't so sure about the battery. Please remember to give an owners report on that one after it's been a while and you have confidence in your review! Cheap cells may not show themselves at first...

Meanwhile, here are some images of my ride... Unlike your bike, mine's got to replace a car! So, with yours I was asking: where do you put the groceries! :D ... In my case, there's no such question. . .
LegranSeville_left_rear_rack_w_brackets_no_crates_1_2.jpg
This is my Legran Seville, a reasonably faithful Raleigh copy, with all Shimano gear.
LegranSeville_left_rear_rack_w_brackets_no_crates_1_2.jpg (196.9 KiB) Viewed 2010 times
LegranSeville_right_rack_closeup_2_2.jpg
Here's a closeup of the luggage rack showing the removable bracketry to add TWO "milk crates" to the bike. Note the efficiency!
LegranSeville_right_rack_closeup_2_2.jpg (216.44 KiB) Viewed 2010 times
LegranSeville_right_rear_w_large_crate_1_2.jpg
Here, with ONE of the two crates mounted. It's very strong and can carry a lot of weight! And, notably, will take TWO full standard paper grocery bags.
LegranSeville_right_front_two_rear_crates_1_2.jpg
Here, with both rear crates mounted - the wire one is a standard size and is intended for heavier loads like gallons of milk, etc.
LegranSeville_right_front_two_rear_crates_1_2.jpg (183.1 KiB) Viewed 2010 times
LegranSeville_rear_2_rear_crates_1_2.jpg
Here, something closer to a rider's view. The wire crate doesn't add much width but the right one sure does. Interestingly, so far in testing, the right crate, even fully loaded, doesn't really affect handling so much because you just inherently lean the bike the other way to compensate - it's very natural feeling, don't even notice it.
So... I started with a "10 speed" - so proclaims the decals! Now I have a 14 speed (or it will be in a few days when I mount the new rear wheel and the second chainring) ... What? It's a mix of road / mountain and cargo bike now... What would YOU call it?! :D

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by amberwolf » Jun 19, 2017 12:18 am

RTIII wrote:File comment: Here, something closer to a rider's view. The wire crate doesn't add much width but the right one sure does. Interestingly, so far in testing, the right crate, even fully loaded, doesn't really affect handling so much because you just inherently lean the bike the other way to compensate - it's very natural feeling, don't even notice it.
I get a lot of people that don't believe me about that. For how I did mine, take a look at my old (since decommissioned) DayGlo Avenger; it's got just one cargo pod, on the left, because at the time I didn't get around to making an acceptable solution to clearing the derailer on the right side, as I needed deep pods down low. (I'd started out with front and rear standard baskets, and despite the carrying capacity the ride was terrible; doing it with the deep/low pod I could fit almost the same amount as in all the baskets combined in just the one pod and it rode much better; never got around to making the front pods either, though).

Lots of pics are missing. :(
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=15570

Later version, by itself and then with Hachi's trailer attached:
Image

Image

Image

(and before Hachi got too big for the pod:
Image

Image

Image





BTW: be careful about the milk crates: most of them have molded into their plastic a legal statement that can be expensive to ignore, depending on whether law enforcement decides to pick on you about it. ;)

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 19, 2017 11:28 am

amberwolf wrote:
RTIII wrote:Here, something closer to a rider's view. The wire crate doesn't add much width but the right one sure does. Interestingly, so far in testing, the right crate, even fully loaded, doesn't really affect handling so much because you just inherently lean the bike the other way to compensate - it's very natural feeling, don't even notice it.
I get a lot of people that don't believe me about that.

and before Hachi got too big for the pod:
Image

BTW: be careful about the milk crates: most of them have molded into their plastic a legal statement that can be expensive to ignore, depending on whether law enforcement decides to pick on you about it. ;)
Cute dog-ride! ...Afraid my cat would never go for such a thing! :lol:

And thanks for the heads-up about the milk crate thing. ... This is Oakland! If a cop is hastling over such a thing then he's not out doing is job! :D I'm pretty sure the milk crates I have are either from companies that no longer exist or that no longer use those crates. But I guess I should prepare for hassle anyway - it would be wise.

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by Norton » Jun 22, 2017 11:40 am

RTIII wrote:...So... I started with a "10 speed" - so proclaims the decals! Now I have a 14 speed (or it will be in a few days when I mount the new rear wheel and the second chainring) ... What? It's a mix of road / mountain and cargo bike now... What would YOU call it?! :D
Man, I don't know....

That steel frame is 'solid' and strong!
But those old, old steel rim wheels were barely up to having a rider in '82 go over bumps in the road. He was expected to stand and help absorb the bumps.

Do you really want to try using this bike to carry loads on its back?
You should really consider a different frame and wheels and tires for that duty.
Maybe not full fat tire, but the tires fatter than 2.1" on typical Mtn bikes. Mid fat? What are they called? And a front suspension fork would be really nice at speeds.

I'm just saying.... :cry:

You could have a speed demon with a 52 front ring on this bike!
But asking it to carry cargo loads at the same time with those old wheels could be asking for trouble...

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 22, 2017 11:55 am

Norton wrote: Man, I don't know [what it should be called)....

That steel frame is 'solid' and strong!
But those old, old steel rim wheels were barely up to having a rider in '82 go over bumps in the road. He was expected to stand and help absorb the bumps.

Do you really want to try using this bike to carry loads on its back?
You should really consider a different frame and wheels and tires for that duty.
Maybe not full fat tire, but the tires fatter than 2.1" on typical Mtn bikes. Mid fat? What are they called? And a front suspension fork would be really nice at speeds.

I'm just saying.... :cry:

You could have a speed demon with a 52 front ring on this bike!
But asking it to carry cargo loads at the same time with those old wheels could be asking for trouble...
The Raleigh frame design must be one of the strongest ever! Not as light, though. As for tires / rims, I have new ones already, just haven't fitted them. They're alloy with quick releases. The front will likely be mounted by tomorrow afternoon. The rear is waiting on spokes as when I relaced it with my new Shimano 7 speed freehub, the spokes were just a small bit too long. :( The new ones are on order and will arrive WAY too far into the future for my tastes! :( But then, I'm still waiting on the battery, too. :(

I won't be carrying heavy loads long distances most times. The grocery store is only about 2 to 3 miles away, though the street choices are poor. ...And other than groceries, I'll seldom carry anything substantive. But I do appreciate the concern. My thinking is that so long as they don't pop, I'm OK! :D However, I'd consider maybe a second, wider set, if there were a good choice that fits without having to modify the brake system.

Thanks for your concerns ... what would you suggest as "barely bigger than 1.25" width? Recall that I need it in 27" diameter!

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by chas58 » Jun 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Gosh, that does look kind of scary. That bike certainly wasn’t designed to carry much power or speed. It’s probably pretty tough though.

First off, you need good brakes. Those antique brakes designed do work on chrome steel bike rims aren’t even close. Need new calipers, pads, probably cables too.
Personally, I would put 700c wheels on that bike. You will have a huge range of tires to choose from. 1 ¼ tires are pretty skinny for a ebike, but can work well with a lot of tire pressure (80-100). That is about as big as you can go with 27" tires. The only problem I really have with them is pinch flats. But fatter tires are going to be much smoother riding and reliable. Personally, I don’t like to go smaller than 35mm, and that is a lot smaller than most anyone here uses. 700x35mm tires (on
700c wheels) should work great on your bike. Might be too late for that advice though…
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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 22, 2017 5:35 pm

chas58 wrote:Gosh, that does look kind of scary. That bike certainly wasn’t designed to carry much power or speed. It’s probably pretty tough though.

First off, you need good brakes. Those antique brakes designed do work on chrome steel bike rims aren’t even close. Need new calipers, pads, probably cables too.
Personally, I would put 700c wheels on that bike. You will have a huge range of tires to choose from. 1 ¼ tires are pretty skinny for a ebike, but can work well with a lot of tire pressure (80-100). That is about as big as you can go with 27" tires. The only problem I really have with them is pinch flats. But fatter tires are going to be much smoother riding and reliable. Personally, I don’t like to go smaller than 35mm, and that is a lot smaller than most anyone here uses. 700x35mm tires (on
700c wheels) should work great on your bike. Might be too late for that advice though…
Not at all, it's never too late for good advice! (Well, OK, :roll: sometimes it is! :lol: But, while there's some things you can never take back, if it's not too late, can you make it a cheeze-burger?! :D )

At the moment it's a matter of budget. Plus, I'm kind of thoroughly invested in my rear wheel already and want the front and rear to match. I'm lacing my own new aluminum wheel and my first stab at spokes (the ones that came with the wheel) were too long for my new Shimano 7 gear freehub. I'm ordering ones that are 2mm shorter and hope they won't be too short! There ARE ones available only 1mm shorter but given my experience, I think it'd be lucky if those worked. And, so, I wait until sometime next week - damned near July (!!) :evil: - before they arrive and in the mean time I'm stuck with the silly steel wheel with badly geared freehub. But, at least it rides OK.

Bizarrely, the chainring is only lined up exactly right on what WILL be the inner chainring on the tallest gear (of five!) on the freewheel...

In changing to a 700... sounds like you know so maybe you can advise: I know there are 26" wheels out there; is 700 closer to the 27? And if not, why the 700 and not the 26". I presume both are available with freehubs in the 130 width. And, I'm OK with "only 7" rear gears!

BTW, the "cargo" aspect of the bike should be a rare one through its career. I'm thinking of it more as a butterfly! :wink: OK, maybe a fat butterfly, not as nimble as some, but more hummingbird than pelican! More Porsche than Pickup! Just one with lots of stowage space! :D

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by amberwolf » Jun 23, 2017 1:50 am

RTIII wrote: in the mean time I'm stuck with the silly steel wheel with badly geared freehub.
These days, most of the sprockets / cogs on common freehubs are compatible with each other's freehub splines. If they're both Shimano, then almost certainly they'd match. So you can just unscrew the locking ring/cogs with chainwhips (easy to DIY) and/or the right splined tool, pull off the ones you want from each of the freehubs, then restack them on the freehub of the wheel you want them on, and reinstall the lockrings.

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by Norton » Jun 23, 2017 6:58 am

RTIII wrote:...Thanks for your concerns ... what would you suggest as "barely bigger than 1.25" width? Recall that I need it in 27" diameter!
27" is a really really old standard.
You might be able to use 700c wheels and get the brakes to adjust correctly, but even then you won't be able to go with wide-ish tires on that frame with those old brake calipers. And those are a really old brake design.
700c and 27" are really close in diameter.
I did this 700c upgrade back when I was dikin with old bikes... :lol:

I recommend not dumping too much money into this bike frame. Take it easy on the bad roads and see how you like your ebike.

When you get the itch to upgrade, save your pennies and buy a better bike. :D

You could find a decent used Mtn bike with disc brakes and suspension fork. Maybe Full Suspension for not too much money. Hold out for a name brand, not a Wally's bike.
Then you could move all the ebike components over to your new modern bike in an evening. :wink:

That way you don't have to worry about the roads and have a huge choice of tires you could run. And you'd have modern brakes!!!

But get the right size. Some people just buy ANY bike on CL not knowing about sizing.
You could go to a bike shop and act like your buying and they will tell you exactly what size you need.

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 23, 2017 11:20 am

amberwolf wrote:
RTIII wrote: in the mean time I'm stuck with the silly steel wheel with badly geared freehub.
These days, most of the sprockets / cogs on common freehubs are compatible with each other's freehub splines. If they're both Shimano, then almost certainly they'd match. So you can just unscrew the locking ring/cogs with chainwhips (easy to DIY) and/or the right splined tool, pull off the ones you want from each of the freehubs, then restack them on the freehub of the wheel you want them on, and reinstall the lockrings.
Sory amberwolf, I made a typo on that one :oops: : I meant freewheel. The old wheel's a freewheel and there's no good gearing for what I want that's presently in manufacture except for a lone manufacturer who has too many horror stories in their product reviews for me to bother with it. Hence, the whole re-lace issue: I need a freehub to replace the freewheel!

And I've learned they're not all identical, either, but as you say, "most." :D

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 23, 2017 11:37 am

Norton wrote:
RTIII wrote:...Thanks for your concerns ... what would you suggest as "barely bigger than 1.25" width? Recall that I need it in 27" diameter!
27" is a really really old standard.
You might be able to use 700c wheels and get the brakes to adjust correctly, but even then you won't be able to go with wide-ish tires on that frame with those old brake calipers. And those are a really old brake design.
I'm well aware of how "really really old" that bike design is. I beg to differ with you and everyone else who says so; it's NOT really really old. Really Really Old would be a bike from 1900! :D Merely Really Old would be a bike from 1940! No, this one's only "old"! Actually, it's THE design that was superseded in the 1990s by the moderns, best my take on it all. But anyway, I was asking about tire / rim compatibility, not about what's really old! :wink: And thank you for providing some good data here!
Norton wrote:700c and 27" are really close in diameter.
I did this 700c upgrade back when I was dikin with old bikes... :lol:


OK, so close enough it could work, you're saying... But you also say, I take it, don't bother. And I wasn't really thinking I would, I was just curious because I have a friend with a hoard of random bike parts and if there were some wheel in there that could interchange but provide improvement, that might be a no-cash (but maybe tires / tubes) way to a different wheel...

I already have my eye on a possible replacement - same basic design only younger. I hope to see it in the next few days. It was the bike of my best friend's wife's now deceased father, so it has known history, and it's said to be a fairly high-end bike, but details are not any longer in anyone's memory. My friend said, $50 to me. If I like it, I might switch. I kept all the parts from my current bike during the e-conversion and could easily put it back specifically because I was thinking I might possibly move on.

BTW, I do NOT want a mountain bike, I DO NOT WANT suspension crap, no way, no how; wrong bike for THIS person. Let's say no more of it, OK? Besides, I didn't ask what bike you recommend. :wink:

As for size, I've known since I was around 10 how to properly size a bike for myself - a kindly bike salesman taught me. That was when I got my first Raleigh! That's why I really like the one I have; it fits me (and I'm pretty damned tall - 6'3"), and it's of a style I prefer. It will do just fine for me for now.

...Thanks again for the wheel info: 700c could possibly replace a 27" and would be better than a 26" in that regard.

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by Norton » Jun 23, 2017 1:08 pm

RTIII wrote:...Thanks again for the wheel info: 700c could possibly replace a 27" and would be better than a 26" in that regard.
One last bit of info. IF you can't adjust the brake pads to reach the proper spot on the 700 rims, there are "Long Reach" calipers.
There are also 'Dual Pivot' road calipers. That's what more recent road bikes use. Hopefully that 'newer' road bike has them. It might even have modern 'brake/shifters' with index shifting. You might even like that bit of tech.!

Too bad you're not interested in new bike technology. Modern disc brakes are awesome. You'd better not test ride a modern bike.... You might change your mind. :)

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 23, 2017 1:54 pm

Norton wrote:
RTIII wrote:...Thanks again for the wheel info: 700c could possibly replace a 27" and would be better than a 26" in that regard.
One last bit of info. IF you can't adjust the brake pads to reach the proper spot on the 700 rims, there are "Long Reach" calipers.
There are also 'Dual Pivot' road calipers. That's what more recent road bikes use. Hopefully that 'newer' road bike has them. It might even have modern 'brake/shifters' with index shifting.
Thanks for the pointers on long-reach - didn't know about them. IDK yet what modern stuff that bike has on it. It might well be awesome! :D
Norton wrote:Too bad you're not interested in new bike technology. :)
[/quote]

Oh, that's a mis-read on your part! I'm interested in it as an abstract at the moment; remember, budget. Presuming I live long enough, there'll be a time. And meanwhile, what you mistake as disinterest in moderns is better understood as comfortable with old-school. 8)

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 24, 2017 4:56 pm

From the "Comedy & Tragedy" and / or "Yen & Yang" department, we have this latest entry:

First, the Comedy / Yen:

Went out for groceries. On the way, passed a bike with TWO identical plastic crates to my own bikes, but wasn't able to get a photo of the guy and his bike, unfortunately. ... I only do one because of the width issue.

And meanwhile, I'm thinking of shifting the wire crate on top to the left to remove an impedeiment to stowing groceries in the right crate...
Attachments
Legran_w_groceries_lft_rear_1_2.jpg
The green towel is a simple thermal / solar protection for milk and a side of meat. But also contained therein are three 1.75ml jugs of vodka...

The right basket has a lot of fruits & vegetables, and other sundries.
Legran_w_groceries_rear_1_2.jpg

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 24, 2017 5:04 pm

And now the tragedy / yang:

I was scooting right along, relatively high speed - maybe over 20 MPH - when some asshole in a car brushed me on my left. To keep from crashing, I veered right, but this was just at the very moment of a major, and badly maintained railroad track. I'm amazed I didn't have a massive crash, but, my bike took it on the chin.

Lucky me, I'd just passed a bike shop ONE block back! And, they were open!

The people there helped straighten the wheel enough to get me home. Here, first, the primary damage, which not only caused that big gash, but also bent the wholy-frock out of the rim. They then used a BFH (BigFuckingHammer) to straighten the wheel. I was grateful. And below you can see the damage their impact blows did on the other side of the rim. :(
Attachments
Legran_damage_left_rear_rim_1_2.jpg
Legran_damage_remedial_repair_1_closeup_1_2.jpg
Legran_damage_rim_rub_spot_1_2.jpg
And, yeah, even "straightened", it was bent to shit. :(

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by Norton » Jun 25, 2017 8:20 am

Skinny wheels and tires are not made for this duty.

And luckily for you antique steel rims respond to the BFH treatment! :lol:
If this was a car you could have 'Classic Car' tags on it !

Even a 'No Suspension' mtn bike with 2.1" tires would have handled it,,,,, probably..... :roll: Just saying..... :wink:
Last edited by Norton on Jun 25, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by RTIII » Jun 25, 2017 1:34 pm

Norton wrote:Skinny wheels and tires are not made for this duty.

And luckily for you antique steel rims respond to the BFM treatment! :lol:
If this was a car you could have 'Classic Car' tags on it !

Even a 'No Suspension' mtn bike with 2.1" tires would have handled it,,,,, probably..... :roll: Just saying..... :wink:
Point taken. Instead of getting a better wheel, I'm seeking to get better city administration! :lol: I mean, REALLY. I went back to the scene later (twice, actually, once each way) as the people at the bike shop were throwing a party in the evening, so I tossed another wheel on the bike and went back to their shop. There was live music, met some cool local people, etc! But the point is, I got to see the site again and to call it a "pothole" does potholes injustice - more like bomb crater!

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Re: A 1982 Raleigh 10 speed with TSDZ2 mid-drive

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 26, 2017 11:26 am

You are lucky your not hurt

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