A thing for fatties

IanM

100 W
Joined
Jun 8, 2015
Messages
147
Location
Canberra Australia
Hi all, so I've been a bit obsessed of late. I always thought that fat bikes were a bit silly but for some weird reason I couldn't get it out of my head that I want to ride a fatty. At first I had the strength to resist the urge, but it wore me down in the end. So after a lot of research I took the plunge and ordered a entry level bike (Wheeler Savana). It was on sale at cycling deal for $699 + free shipping. I also ordered a sunrace 10 spd 11-42 rear cassette at the same time. While I was at it I ordered a Luna lander suspension fork for $195 + $77 shipping to AU. I found some Schwalbe Jumbo Jim 4.8 tubeless ready tires at Wiggle au for $120 ea so a pair of those was ordered too. I also have a Bafang 750W hub kit ordered from Ali express (Conhismotor) which should arrive in a week or two.
Now where I live in Canberra there is not much sand, mostly hard pack with rocks and loose gravel to ride on. I have ridden this bike at my local single track riding area when it was still stock with no upgrades. One of the first things I changed was to put my Suntour suspension seat post on which was a nice addition. As I received the Luna fork a few days ago and installed it I took it out to test with the stock tires on the bike. It was scary to say the least, the Vee MissionControl 26x4s were really difficult to control on the rough hard packed rocky tracks. It wasn't all bad though and I could tell there was potential for some fun with the right mods.
So today the postie delivered my new Jumbo Jims, woohoo. I duly threw them on the bike and took it for a ride and oh my god that was so much fun what a difference . Now it feels like it's on rails, once I was getting used to the massive grip offered by the Jumbo Jims I was railing turns while still pedalling and leaning over so much it felt strange. If I did the same on my FUTR Alpha I'm certain I would have gone down. Hoping the bike gets even better with the Bafang to help with the slog up the hills.
I have to say I was surprised how good this bike is through rough terrain I'm considering asking Hyena to get Stealth to make a fat swingarm to put on my alpha.
Anyway here's some pics of my newly beloved fatty still solely pedal powered for now but not for long.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    56.5 KB · Views: 2,651
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    64.7 KB · Views: 2,651
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    68.6 KB · Views: 2,651
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    61.6 KB · Views: 2,651
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    66.8 KB · Views: 2,651
Looks like tires made the diff. Looking at the original tires, kind of looks like worn out good dirt tires.

I never did understand that street/ dirt kind of tread. Always shitty ride in dirt, so why bother with the knobs on the edge, where you grab is still the center of the tire 90% of the time, which is why your knobbies always wear out in the center first.

That kind of tread just seems to me to be all fashion, and zero function. Street tire with dirt look, woooo.
 
Fat tires are floating. It is their purpose, yet most who are riding them are inflating too high PSI because they don't like the floating feel. When them fat tires are hard, very few are up to maintain a good grip.
 
dogman dan said:
I never did understand that street/ dirt kind of tread. Always shitty ride in dirt, so why bother with the knobs on the edge, where you grab is still the center of the tire 90% of the time, which is why your knobbies always wear out in the center first.

That kind of tread just seems to me to be all fashion, and zero function. Street tire with dirt look, woooo.

It's about decreasing rolling resistance during most of the ride, while still maintaining enough bite in turns to prevent wiping out. Knobs cost speed, and most of these tires were intended for bikes whose motor can't be overvolted.

It doesn't hurt that smooth treads wear longer, so having a smooth thread where you use it most lengthens the life of the tire by a lot.

If you have to develop your own horsepower, then conserving it for best results isn't zero function. It's the whole game.
 
dogman dan said:
Looks like tires made the diff. Looking at the original tires, kind of looks like worn out good dirt tires.

I never did understand that street/ dirt kind of tread. Always shitty ride in dirt, so why bother with the knobs on the edge, where you grab is still the center of the tire 90% of the time, which is why your knobbies always wear out in the center first.

That kind of tread just seems to me to be all fashion, and zero function. Street tire with dirt look, woooo.
The tires really were the difference Dan and the originals only worked well on sand or loose gravel. The Schwalbes seem to work pretty much anywhere. The Vee mission controls at 10 psi were deadly due to the self steer on the front. I tried flipping the front around against the rotation arrow indicator which helped a bit but not much. I also tried upping the psi to 15 at the front which also helped but still felt like it would guide itself into a tree or something with me along as a passenger. At this stage I was starting to wonder if this was as good as it could be.

MadRhino said:
Fat tires are floating. It is their purpose, yet most who are riding them are inflating too high PSI because they don't like the floating feel. When them fat tires are hard, very few are up to maintain a good grip.

Yeah that is very true, when I had 15 psi in the Vee MC front it was way too harsh and bouncy compared to 10 psi which seemed to smooth things out a bit but this tire was still rubbish either way. With the JJs (jumbo jims) at 10psi and the Luna lander 120mm fork it was a plush ride.
If you think about it it's around the same amount of travel as a DH fork with 120mm from the fork and 100- 120mm from the tire. Also with the suntour suspension seat post and JJs there is at least 150mm of combined travel.
Trail obstacles like roots, logs, rocks and loose gravel are things I would normally avoid but with this bike I soon found myself floating over most of it at higher speed than before.
Chalo said:
dogman dan said:
I never did understand that street/ dirt kind of tread. Always shitty ride in dirt, so why bother with the knobs on the edge, where you grab is still the center of the tire 90% of the time, which is why your knobbies always wear out in the center first.

That kind of tread just seems to me to be all fashion, and zero function. Street tire with dirt look, woooo.

It's about decreasing rolling resistance during most of the ride, while still maintaining enough bite in turns to prevent wiping out. Knobs cost speed, and most of these tires were intended for bikes whose motor can't be overvolted.

It doesn't hurt that smooth treads wear longer, so having a smooth thread where you use it most lengthens the life of the tire by a lot.

If you have to develop your own horsepower, then conserving it for best results isn't zero function. It's the whole game.
The Vee MCs do have a lot of tread in the centre when compared to the JJs and the JJs have less rolling resistance.
The deal breaker for the Vees is the deadly self steer.
As you say Chalo, cycling is all about energy management and with Ebikes it gets more interesting with an extra energy source to manage.
It seems from my limited knowledge about them so far, that fat tire bikes are very dependent on tire choice. It's not just about having big fat tires, it's also about having the right type of tire.
When you get it right they are a lot of fun to ride.
 
Personally, Id rather have a strong center rib on a tire, straight, or zig zag, to lower rolling resistance on a knobby or semi knobby tire. That gets you the nice glide on street riding straight line.

Beats the shit out of a tire with street tread on 80% of it and a few knobs for show on the edge, once you do hit the dirt.
 
My kit arrived today so I got into the build more or less straight away. Time to find out how this Bafang geared hub goes.
I didn't take any photos while installing the kit. As is usually the case I was too busy with the install to think about it.
First ride impression after a quick spin around the block was pretty good. Power seems ok for a 750w rated motor with what seems to be enough torque for climbing hills but I won't be certain about that until I can test it properly. I hope to get out tomorrow for some fun in the dirt :mrgreen:
 

Attachments

  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    72.4 KB · Views: 2,465
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    65.9 KB · Views: 2,465
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    57.5 KB · Views: 2,465
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    90.4 KB · Views: 2,465
Cool bike dude. Am contemplating something similar. Looking forward to hearing more about how it does off-road, voltage, etc...
 
Yeah, a low geared fat e bike is obscenely fun, and can take you some amazing places! Anything involving pavement though is something I avoid, luckily I have other rides for that.

What size chain ring you trying out? I ended up with a 30T and wouldn't ever go back.
 
Thought I'd share my project from this spring. Bullseye Monster from BD with 22" frame, 1000W DD front hub with 36V 13.5 Ah both from Luna. I'm just a cruiser/sightseer and really enjoy the setup.
 

Attachments

  • Bike2.jpg
    Bike2.jpg
    40.7 KB · Views: 2,412
I never liked the fat bikes, but I do like a wide tire on a regular mountain bike.
For electric it doesnt really matter what you ride.
Fatties you reduce the air, but I'm sure most dont because when I do see them, they are on the road.
 
I hated my bafang 750 watt geared motor. The torque was poor , and it was loud. It was a waste of $210 . I weigh 240 lbs, so maybe for a lighter person it will work fine.
 
I almost bought one used but fairly new on Kijiji local classifieds.
I thought it would be weak, and my money would be better spent on a MAC or rebuild my burnt BMC V1 which is a MAC, I did upgrade the gears to Lyens all metal, all 3, because 2 were stripped.

I do want to build a mid-drive next, but I need to repair my MXUS 3kw V2 dd, X408 dd and BMC V1 geared. Been thinking of a contraption to use the X408. Might as well show it here.
 
Wolfeman said:
Cool bike dude. Am contemplating something similar. Looking forward to hearing more about how it does off-road, voltage, etc...
Thanks Wolfeman, I would say to people considering a bike like this to do it but not if your thinking to use it on pavement much. It's best to have another ride to use for the on road duties.
As for voltage I am using hobby king lipo at 12s which I normally charge to 48v and every so often balance charge to 50v the pack on the bike in the photos is 10ah and I have another 5ah pack that I use to bring it up to 15ah. Those batteries are 4 years old now and a bit saggy so a new pack is on the list of things to do.
Off road is where a fatty is meant to be. To pedal unassisted up hills = not much fun, you just put it in a nice low gear and spin those pedals. If you can keep up the momentum it's possible to take lines over much rougher obstacles etc than with normal mountain bikes. If you lose that momentum then it takes a lot of effort to get it back. That's where the motor really is needed.
craneplaneguy said:
Yeah, a low geared fat e bike is obscenely fun, and can take you some amazing places! Anything involving pavement though is something I avoid, luckily I have other rides for that.

What size chain ring you trying out? I ended up with a 30T and wouldn't ever go back.
Hey CPG, I'm only new to fat bikes but I already have had a lot of great fun rides, the plan is to do a Simpson desert crossing next year with a friend doing backup in a 4x4 with 3-4 batteries that will be charged on the vehicle by solar panels.
Still in the planning stages. Getting a bike was the first step.
The bike came with a 38/24 double chainring up front and 11-32 10sp rear cassette and I did put on a 11-42 sunrace cassette which worked great when there was no motor. I specifically wanted the cassette version of the Bafang so I could keep the 11-42 gearing, it was about $100 more than the freewheel version.

jld3 said:
Thought I'd share my project from this spring. Bullseye Monster from BD with 22" frame, 1000W DD front hub with 36V 13.5 Ah both from Luna. I'm just a cruiser/sightseer and really enjoy the setup.
Hey jld3, Thanks for sharing. Nice clean build, 2wd on a fatty makes a lot of sense, I am thinking a small geared hub on the front of my bike would make it even more fun and maybe easier to climb large sand dunes with dual motors :mrgreen:

rumme said:
I hated my bafang 750 watt geared motor. The torque was poor , and it was loud. It was a waste of $210 . I weigh 240 lbs, so maybe for a lighter person it will work fine.
My first impression of this motor is that for what it is it does ok. It seems quiet enough about the same as my MXUS 3k with square wave controller. I like to pedal a lot so the torque should be enough. I also have a BBSHD which is a lot quieter than this but I wanted a hub on this build for reliability. If the torque isn't enough I will go to 2wd.
markz said:
I almost bought one used but fairly new on Kijiji local classifieds.
I thought it would be weak, and my money would be better spent on a MAC or rebuild my burnt BMC V1 which is a MAC, I did upgrade the gears to Lyens all metal, all 3, because 2 were stripped.

I do want to build a mid-drive next, but I need to repair my MXUS 3kw V2 dd, X408 dd and BMC V1 geared. Been thinking of a contraption to use the X408. Might as well show it here.
Hey markz, that frame looks like it has potential I've seen a few hub motor builds on here with those.
An easy mid drive option for that would be a bbshd, a 408 driving the cranks could be made to work but a real pain to make it reliable.
 
Welcome to the wide world of Fat!
Good looking bike.

I tried those Vee Mission Control tires at one point. Back then, they got good grip going up a hill , but they absolutely sucked at braking and turning. They would skid easy and self steer hard under braking. Being directional tread, I decided to turn them around backwards. That greatly improved things and while they then got poor traction climbing, they had much better braking and handling. They still sucked, Just less.

Tires on my Fatty only last around 300 miles. The Vee MCs were the only set I replaced before wearing out.

It depends on the terrain, but 10 LBS is pretty high off road. have you tried running them at 4-6lbs?
 
Drunkskunk said:
Welcome to the wide world of Fat!
Good looking bike.

I tried those Vee Mission Control tires at one point. Back then, they got good grip going up a hill , but they absolutely sucked at braking and turning. They would skid easy and self steer hard under braking. Being directional tread, I decided to turn them around backwards. That greatly improved things and while they then got poor traction climbing, they had much better braking and handling. They still sucked, Just less.

Tires on my Fatty only last around 300 miles. The Vee MCs were the only set I replaced before wearing out.

It depends on the terrain, but 10 LBS is pretty high off road. have you tried running them at 4-6lbs?

Cheers DS, I remember your fat build from ages ago, back then you were a FatE pioneer, now they're getting popular.
Now I know why, rode the bike in rough rocky single track today and it was really fun until I got a flat rear after about 30 minutes riding. Had to walk the bike back to the van :pancake: didn't bring any tubes or pump or anything.
Turns out I had a double pinch flat, I was running about 10 psi but I could be wrong about that I've just been using the gauge on my floor pump which is hard to read at best :lol: now I am thinking I will go tubeless. I want to get a tire pressure gauge that is accurate at low pressure.
I'm really loving the jumbo Jim 4.8s they just have so much grip it's silly.The Vee MCs were crap and are now hanging up in the garage, I may use them on the rear so I can get more mileage from the JJs. 300 miles isn't that good from an expensive tire but the fun factor makes it worthwhile IMO.
The bafang impressed me actually, it handled the steep climbs no problem and was light on power consumption. I haven't checked it's top speed yet. The PAS was quite good, very similar to my BBSHD. So far I am happy with this motor.
 
Went for a decent ride today at Stromlo mtb park, the bike performed great and I was quite impressed with the Bafang 750w hub motor which dragged my 105kg body up a total of 300m of climbing at various grades over 17km total distance.
Voltage of my 12s 10ah lipo pack was 49V at the beginning and was down to about 45V at the end. The pack took about 8.5ah to charge back to 50V. I was mainly using the PAS at level 1 most of the time and using the thumb throttle on occasion when an extra shot of torque was needed, the LCD would read up to 1000W when using the throttle. I really like this PAS because it just gives you the amount of torque you have dialled in and it keeps adding speed as you build it up. Level 1 is 170 watts as indicated on the LCD display, level 2 is around 230W and level 3 around 500W. I was pedalling a lot at level 1, level 2 was a bit easier and level 3 felt as if the motor was doing at least 75% of the work.
The Luna Lander fork is great until you hit big stuff and it bottomed several times with a loud clack which forced me to slow down and look for smoother lines. I suspect a change of the damper oil could remedy the problem. That or just get a Bluto which would be expensive to do with around $500-$600 for the fork then a new headset to suit the tapered head tube and to top it off a new front wheel with 15mm through axle. Not much change would be left from $1000 :shock:
 

Attachments

  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    84.9 KB · Views: 2,336
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    103.4 KB · Views: 2,336
dogman dan said:
Beats the shit out of a tire with street tread on 80% of it and a few knobs for show on the edge, once you do hit the dirt.

Yeah, everyone has their own preference. I love a smooth center, with knobs on the side that grip when I lean the tire over to the limit. I don't have wheel spin going straight in the dry. You of course ride differently and have different requirements, so that make sense.

Ian's biggest benefit was going to a quality tire. many of people here are happy to ride around on a $14 tire. But when you put on a high end tire like a Schwalbe, that is a game changer. Heck, I'm fine with the Schwalbe "big one" which is basically a beach racing slick. With the right pressure, it will do anything I need done on a dry course. This fat tire has less rolling resistance than just about any tire made (including 23mm race tires). If you are managing power, that is important.

With the proper design and construction, you you don't need knobs (unless it is wet/muddy). There is a lot more to tire design than simply the tread pattern.
 
chas58 said:
With the proper design and construction, you you don't need knobs (unless it is wet/muddy). There is a lot more to tire design than simply the tread pattern.

I like to put it this way: When the surface you're riding on is harder than the tire, then the tire's tread pattern doesn't help traction (though it can harm traction). The texture that matters is on the surface. But when the surface is softer than the tire, or loose, then the tread on the tire can help.

Thinner, more flexible tire construction yields better traction and lower rolling resistance, pretty much regardless of tire size and pressure. Often, the trade-offs for that include less puncture resistance and shorter wear life.
 
The gum hardness does a lot on hard surfaces. Hard gum need low PSI to grip, but at some point you just can't go lower for the terrain and start to get pinch flats. Soft gum does need a heavier tire construction, that can be ridden very low PSI, but their grip is not PSI dependant as much as hard gum. Soft gum does wear fast though, and making more expansive tires too. 35C sticks on walls but last only a few hours. 40A is a good compromise and still very sticky. Unfortunately, fat bike tires are mostly 60A because soft gum is an important weight penalty on big tires. Some very expansive fat tires are double compound, meaning the tire is 60 and the thread is 40. The problem with dual compound is the bond between hard and soft gum is weak, so the thread can be destroyed very quickly in bad riding conditions. We do have much better choice of tire construction and gum in DH tires. That is why I prefer building for 3.0", fatties are too limited for speeding safely, and the best fat tires are really expansive in terms of cost and replacement frequency.
 
When your tires can deliver a consistent performance over a range of different surfaces it helps a lot as you know how the bike will react in most situations. This predictability allows the rider to push right up to the limit of traction with confidence, especially when riding on varied surfaces. A great tire will always have that predictable quality.
The Schwalbes have that predictable quality and low rolling resistance as well. When you look at the tread pattern you wouldnt think that they would roll as easily as they do. The centre row of knobs are spaced about 20mm apart where the Vee Mission Contols have a centre row of triangle shaped knobs that are all connected in a row. The Vees have noticeably more rolling resistance. I think it has a lot to do with the rubber compound used along with tread pattern.
I am only new to fat bikes and the tires for them but these Schwalbes are good, not sure if I would want to try a different tire especially at $120 each. I guess I will eventually but for now bring on the E fatty fun :mrgreen:
 
MadRhino said:
The gum hardness does a lot on hard surfaces. Hard gum need low PSI to grip, but at some point you just can't go lower for the terrain and start to get pinch flats. Soft gum does need a heavier tire construction, that can be ridden very low PSI, but their grip is not PSI dependant as much as hard gum. Soft gum does wear fast though, and making more expansive tires too. 35C sticks on walls but last only a few hours. 40A is a good compromise and still very sticky. Unfortunately, fat bike tires are mostly 60A because soft gum is an important weight penalty on big tires. Some very expansive fat tires are double compound, meaning the tire is 60 and the thread is 40. The problem with dual compound is the bond between hard and soft gum is weak, so the thread can be destroyed very quickly in bad riding conditions. We do have much better choice of tire construction and gum in DH tires. That is why I prefer building for 3.0", fatties are too limited for speeding safely, and the best fat tires are really expansive in terms of cost and replacement frequency.
Hey MadRhino, good info there. I mainly was interested in the fat bikes to ride across beaches and deserts for adventure style riding. I was pleasantly surprised by the performance in my local tracks where I would normally ride my FUTR Alpha.
The great thing is nobody notices that it's electric almost every person that sees me riding this bike says "wow look at those fat tires" :lol: On the alpha they say "is that electric how fast does it go?" Or they say"that bike is illegal"
I got up to 55kmh yesterday and that is as fast as I ever want to go on this bike, the alpha on the other hand feels rock solid at 80kmh.
 
People don't see it's electric because it is built on a bike frame. The Futr Alpha definitely looks like it's electric, because it is a dedicated ebike frame with the obstructed front triangle battery box. :wink:
 
Hey, Hi Ian, nice bike!

It was great finding your posts here after a search. I'd googled last year when I bought my Savana but there's very little in the way of reviews, raves or modifications to this bike.
I saw a fella had done the CSR on his stock savana :shock: The only issue he noted was some sand ingress to the crankset (and the poor OEM saddle).

I love it, it's good going back to a cro-mo frame, good to be back on a fatty. It was a good price for reasonable spec and that sexy frame :)

Here's mine so far:

Screen Shot 2017-08-28 at 2.10.05 pm.png

I was googling for a suspension fork to fit. Still in two minds as i'm really considering a Xiongda mtr in the front wheel, a 'legal' fatty.So much fun with some 'grunt' though..
It has my 10T mac in it just now (had to cold bend the rear to fit). I locked the Bluto out as much as used it on gravel/firetrails with my Norco.. but it is very nice when needed ..
Maybe the Sondors fork is better though in that the fat Bluto was a noodly thing and would flex a lot at speed over rough ground, to the point tof being a bit unstable/dangerous at top speed downhill.. hmm..

I agree the Vee tyres are crap. 25psi sorts out the self steer and they roll much better but then it's a pretty rough ride. Maybe i'll try a tyre swap first to get some cush.
Maxxis Mammoth worked well for me. They do have the centre continuous tread, which maybe adds to mileage(?). Was pretty easy on them, all gravel roads, but got the best part of 1500 miles on the rear before a swap... about the only thing I dont like with them is that gawdy company advertising in big yellow letters. Paid for in full without any such further royaties to the company..

Anyhow, great to see another Wheeler!
 
PS Interesting to see the 2017 Savana, other than the obvious, doesn't seem much changed other than the tyres :) (maybe the saddle?)

Screen Shot 2017-08-28 at 6.00.52 pm.png

(Unless that is just for euro market.. they look a bit like Wheeler branded Choyang?)
 
Back
Top