What will it take to make ebikes, More mainstream ?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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rumme   100 kW

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What will it take to make ebikes, More mainstream ?

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 4:13pm

I will take a guess .

I watch countless youtube videos of new ebikes coming to market and the main things they have in common are :

OVERPRICED

UNDER POWERED MOTORS

LOW AMP HOUR BATTERY RATINGS.

Sondors made a ton of money, by recognizing that the ebike market was wide open for a ebike around $600 that looked good but wasn't top notch components . He knew that many people would be happy with a weaker motor/ battery if the price point was low.

I believe the ebike market is still CRYING for a UPGRADED Sondors style ebike . Something like :

1. 1000 watt NOMINAL hub motor/ 500 watt NOMINAL mid drive
2. 48 volt/ 20 AH battery pack
3. a controller that can handle 30-50 amps and propel the rider up to 30- 35 mph top speed { if legalities are a concern, then offer a dual mode for riders to only switch on the higher speeds for off road use}
4. possibly some suspension or at least a good seatpost suspension.

Offer this package in 3 frame sizes and make it look clean/ nice , and do it for $1500- $1900 shipped, and I think it would be a BIG seller.

Yes, the $600 Sondors is cool , but for most adults who weigh more then 160 lbs and have to travel hilly roads, gravel roads, and want to travel more then 14 miles distance etc...Sondors isn't ideal due to lack of motor power and battery capacity.

I guess the RADROVER is the closest thing , but I think it only comes in 1 frame size , and battery capacity isn't 20A/H and I AM NOT A BIG FAN of the Bafang geared motors. I had one , and wasn't impressed at all. I think a decent quality direct drive , 1000 watt hub motor is better.

Basically, a ebike that is MUCH better then Sondors with all the features I listed, for $1800 shipped { 3x the price of Sondors, but still below the cost of what any ebike company is offering, with those upgraqded features} . This would allow for a much better riding experience for the consumer and still provide good profit margins for the manufacturer. If Sondors could manufacture a lower grade ebike for $600, and make a ton of money, then the same thing can be done with a medium grade ebike, capable of trail riding/ road riding for $1800 , and still provide good profits for the manufacturer. This new ebike , would not be marketed for doing heavy trails/ jumping, racing....which most consumers don't need/want anyways.
Last edited by rumme on Jun 19 2017 12:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by boytitan » Jun 17 2017 4:26pm

Have you even looked around there are bikes in that spec range. Except for your absurd AH request. A 20ah battery is pretty high. The top end speed is to high also it takes 1800-2000 watts to get 35 mph on flats I am at 1500 watts and getting 31-32 on flats without wind. It would be cheaper to get 2 13 ah batteries over time then one 20ah battery. Also your controller amperage and wattage request don't match. 30 amps gives you 1500 watts of power and 50 amps gives you 2400 watts of power at 48 volts.

Other then that the Juiced bike hyper fat does everything you just asked.



https://shop.juicedbikes.com/products/h ... 9847245266

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 5:11pm

Ty for the link....no, this doesn't do the specs I stated. Yes, you can upgrade to a 21 AH battery , but the cost then comes to $2548 , . Also, there isn't any suspension on front or rear, and not even a seatpost suspension. So from a percentage standpoint in cost, it is much more then my stats . But I will admit this gets us closer . Also, I do not consider a 20 HA battery " absurd" . I weigh 240 lbs and have steep roads and often travel 16-20 miles distance. If my battery was only the normal 11 AH:s , it would not work for my needs. Furthermore, I would assume that many of these ebikes that people purchase with low AH battery packs, are one of the main regrets the owner has . Its always better to have more AH"s in a battery pack then you need, then less.

Also, a 50 amp controller on a 48 volt battery can get you to 30 MPH...I know because I also build ebikes. Finally it says it is a geared hub motor. I tried a 750 watt bafang geared hub motor, and was not impressed, and went back to D.D. hub motors. So as we see, this ebike is not the price or stats I suggested , but I am glad you gave the link. This is a step in the right direction for ebikes and mainstream IMHO.

Update..it looks like this company has done a upgrade, and is offering front suspension , but I'm not sure if it increases price. The photo on their website, shows the ebike without front suspension,.
Last edited by rumme on Jun 17 2017 5:31pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by ultralight001 » Jun 17 2017 5:18pm

To manufacture ebikes you need to build batteries. A 48v 20ah battery is like $150 in cells to build if you have a welder. Use a 9C hub motor kit and there's your ebike. Chinese 48v 20ah packs are about $500, and 48v 1500w hub motor kits are about $250.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 5:29pm

ultralight001 wrote:To manufacture ebikes you need to build batteries. A 48v 20ah battery is like $150 in cells to build if you have a welder. Use a 9C hub motor kit and there's your ebike. Chinese 48v 20ah packs are about $500, and 48v 1500w hub motor kits are about $250.
I build ebikes also. I know they can be built for less money with better performance , but home built ebikes don't often look as streamlined and finished as manufactured ebikes , where all the wires/ connections are nicely hidden and the battery ties into the frame perfectly, etc.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by Chalo » Jun 17 2017 5:30pm

Why should a usable e-bike cost less than a POS scooter with a glorified lawnmower engine? The e-bike is going to have to contain real copper, neodymium, lithium, etc. It's inherently more expensive to make than a steel and oil stinker. If you budget for materials, engineering, workmanship that's worth a damn, shipping, distribution, and profit, an e-bike should cost more than a gasser. You might wish it to be different, but that doesn't change the math.

Sondors et al are skimping on the engineering and workmanship parts of the equation, not just battery capacity. Then they stick the end user with the distributor's problems, and ignore service and support altogether.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 5:33pm

Chalo wrote:Why should a usable e-bike cost less than a POS scooter with a glorified lawnmower engine? The e-bike is going to have to contain real copper, neodymium, lithium, etc. It's inherently more expensive to make than a steel and oil stinker. If you budget for materials, engineering, workmanship that's worth a damn, shipping, distribution, and profit, an e-bike should cost more than a gasser. You might wish it to be different, but that doesn't change the math.

Sondors et al are skimping on the engineering and workmanship parts of the equation, not just battery capacity. Then they stick the end user with the distributor's problems, and ignore service and support altogether.
Chalo, you were the guy that argued { last year on this forum} that you were confident a certain ebike had PLASTIC parts, and when it was pointed out they were metal parts, you argued the point , until you finally had to admit you were wrong. If you don't know the difference between plastic and metal...well...you get the point. :D

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 5:39pm

It looks like the HYPERFAT in the video above , has a 9t motor option and a upgraded 12t motor option, but I did not see the torque ratings for each motor , in newton meters, which is a important rating to know .

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by Chalo » Jun 17 2017 5:47pm

rumme wrote:
Chalo wrote:Sondors et al are skimping on the engineering and workmanship parts of the equation, not just battery capacity. Then they stick the end user with the distributor's problems, and ignore service and support altogether.
Chalo, you were the guy that argued { last year on this forum} that you were confident a certain ebike had PLASTIC parts, and when it was pointed out they were metal parts, you argued the point , until you finally had to admit you were wrong. If you don't know the difference between plastic and metal...well...you get the point. :D
That was because some of the Sondors parts were so crudely cast and globbed up with paint that they resembled plastic. It was my mistake, but it was an easy mistake to make because the Sondors is poorly manufactured.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

rumme   100 kW

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 6:15pm

Chalos quote : the sondors is poorly manufactured" end quote.

I don't own a sondors ebike, and it would not suit my needs/ body BUT, I don't think you give Sondors enough credit. First of all, there were MANY posters on this forum claiming that Sondors would NEVER deliver a ebike at all, and that he was gonna take the money and run. WRONG

Then, we have to give credit for Sondors being the best selling ebike in history . Is it produced as good as $2000 - $10,000 ebikes...of course not . It was marketed to the masses who just wanted to try a ebike, for a very low cost for basic riding { not downhill trials, racing ,jumping } and IMHO the sondors is not poorly manufactured for its price and its intended purposes. I think10s of thousands of his ebikes have been sold and are still selling like hotcakes. I'm not aware of a high percentage of owners reporting catastrophic failures of their ebikes, unless the owners abused the intended use for their sondors . Furthermore, I'm not aware of any class action lawsuits, were Sondors owners are claiming physical damages from the ebike frame breaking in half , etc.

You claim it is poorly manufactured, I claim it is PROPERLY manufactured to its targeted audience, price point and needs of 10s of thosuands of Sondors owners who are VERY happy with their $600 ebikes.

Sure, neither you or me, are gonna buy a sondors $600 ebike, but that doesn't mean it is a poorly/. improperly manufactured ebike that wont meet the needs of millions of casual ebike riders at a low price point.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jun 17 2017 6:58pm

As you have seen there are many e-bikes being marketed now, some in the unsure/shady world of Crowdfunding.

Don't even go in that direction,

I like your price point, just forget about another 2 wheel bike.

What you should be designing and making is 3 wheel bikes, 1 Tadpole Design, and 1 Delta Design.

1) Tadpole Design, make it full suspension front and rear. Make it so that the person sits up at least 9 inches higher than current tadpole designs, put the weight of the batteries down low .
steering with two arms/sticks at just above waist level at sides, so that you rest your forarm on a rest just like on the window side of your car, and move the steering stick for and aft for steering.
controls for speed / cruise control , and brake levers on the sticks.
Make it so that the person is sitting more in the trike, not on top of a single frame. make it with a frame on each side. look at Top Fuel Dragsters to see what I mean.
DD or Geared rear hub, and mid-drive version using a hub. again and important ... Suspension front and Rear, and Rider Sitting up higher.

2) Delta Design, Make this as a tilting trike. ( Look at Google and Google Images for the Honda Gyro of years past )
Full Suspension , Long and thin. Long for stability, design it so that you can move the seat fore and aft to get the perfect balance / stability point .

Make both designs with a wind screen for getting the wind over the head of the rider , would be good to get wind directed around the sides of the rider as well .
In other words, make it as aerodynamic as possible , this will give the rider some wind and weather protection as well. It does not have to be cigar/sailplane shape, angular will be good.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by Matador » Jun 17 2017 7:44pm

I gotta say. Even if the juiced E-bike with 20Ah is 2500 USD. I like it. And I'm a DIY. But for once in my whole life, I think this fully manufactured made ebike is worth most of it. The guy who deseigned it seem to be a real enthousiast, he rides them (as in this vid). He drawed the battry box himselfed and had a lot of them CNC machined and plastic molds made too. All custom. You rarely see a turn key eBike with a compact 20Ah manufactured battery these days... On the contrary, many 3000-4000 USD ebikes are made of cheap part. This 2500 USD is worth the price if you factor in the laber, the R&D, the quality components (good cells), etc. I'm not saying it's the fastest bike. But you get some good bang for your bucks, especially if you dont want to get into the DIY route. I'd buy that bike if I didn't already had a BBSHD and some custom built batteries.

Think about it.... 2500 USD
1) Bike itself : since lot or RnD, around 500 USD not unreasonable....
2) Battery (20Ah 48V of GA or other good cells)... It's a 6P13S : At least 500 USD when fully assemble (cells, nickel stips, casing, BMS, spotwelding + BMS leads labor).
3) 1000W motor : maybe 250 USD
4) 30-50A range controller maybe 100 USD
5) The stuff we don't think about (lights, horn, wiring, racks, etc)... 150 USD.

That's 1500 USD right there, and the bike is not assembled yet, and no profit margin is made yet.

I'd rather pay less and learn more by going the DIY route. But 2500 $, I find is a honest deal for that bike.
I mean, where I live in Canada, you get a Pedego style 250W ebike with an 11Ah with cheap panasonic cells for 3500-4000 canadian dollars. Not a good deal at all.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 17 2017 8:17pm

Matador wrote:I gotta say. Even if the juiced E-bike with 20Ah is 2500 USD. I like it. And I'm a DIY. But for once in my whole life, I think this fully manufactured made ebike is worth most of it. The guy who deseigned it seem to be a real enthousiast, he rides them (as in this vid). He drawed the battry box himselfed and had a lot of them CNC machined and plastic molds made too. All custom. You rarely see a turn key eBike with a compact 20Ah manufactured battery these days... On the contrary, many 3000-4000 USD ebikes are made of cheap part. This 2500 USD is worth the price if you factor in the laber, the R&D, the quality components (good cells), etc. I'm not saying it's the fastest bike. But you get some good bang for your bucks, especially if you dont want to get into the DIY route. I'd buy that bike if I didn't already had a BBSHD and some custom built batteries.

Think about it.... 2500 USD
1) Bike itself : since lot or RnD, around 500 USD not unreasonable....
2) Battery (20Ah 48V of GA or other good cells)... It's a 6P13S : At least 500 USD when fully assemble (cells, nickel stips, casing, BMS, spotwelding + BMS leads labor).
3) 1000W motor : maybe 250 USD
4) 30-50A range controller maybe 100 USD
5) The stuff we don't think about (lights, horn, wiring, racks, etc)... 150 USD.

That's 1500 USD right there, and the bike is not assembled yet, and no profit margin is made yet.

I'd rather pay less and learn more by going the DIY route. But 2500 $, I find is a honest deal for that bike.
I mean, where I live in Canada, you get a Pedego style 250W ebike with an 11Ah with cheap panasonic cells for 3500-4000 canadian dollars. Not a good deal at all.

I agree.....this new ebike is getting real close,. to what I think the ebike market is begging for. I still think the 21 AH battery option for $2580 total cost of ebike, is a bit to high . Humans like to see FRIENDLY numbers when it comes to prices...so $1890 price tag looks a lot less expensive then anything over $2000 .

I guess the 1 thing I'm not excited about with this new ebike offering from a standpoint of its construction, is the geared hub motor. I tried a bafang 750 watt geared hub motor and I ran it up to 2000 watts, and it did not impress me and certainly was lethargic when it was kept at 750 watts output . I did not like how loud it was and theres just more components to break internally .

With all that said, maybe this company will offer, in the future, a 1000 watt nominal direct drive hub motor , capable of 2500 watt bursts and POSSIBLY get the price down to $1900 with a 18-20 AH battery option. I still think a decently manufactured ebike, for moderate riding under $2000 with 48 volt/ 20- ah battery is the SWEET SPOT, for consumers and it is a niche just waiting to be exploited.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by Ianhill » Jun 17 2017 8:22pm

If you was serious about it design a jig to build a frame all tig welded with high grade materials and components and the price point is then around a kuberg freerider etc so with out mass production or cheap as chips bike's the demand is too small to make it worth while tooling up and the market moves so fast that it's a large manufacturers game and they need high volume.

There's definitely room for the handy tinkerer that can't build ab electric ride close to someone's heart or just a dream they have with no skill to produce it but to get a production run going it needs to be head and shoulders above the China equivelents and well priced to compete with any local custom ebike builders that offer a simular deal once the price climbs too high most will by a genuine electric motorbike with warranty etc.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by MadRhino » Jun 18 2017 5:03am

None of the ebikes that you can design today, will make people start riding ebikes instead of personnal cars. Even if you sell it half of the cost to build it.

The habit and fashion of the personnal car is not about to vanish. It will take a major crisis, and strong legal incitatives. The average people change when they are forced to. Those who are changing by consciousness are few, and if they have a common concern, their requirements are a very wide variety.

When the use of personnal car will fade, only then some ebikes will become mainstream. It will not be for their cost, because any ebike is so much cheaper mean of transportation anyway. It will be for their look, performance and practical design. Until then, ebikes are a marginal mean of transportation and most of them are leisure or sport oriented. If a production ebike could meet now, the leisure or sport requirements of most, it would become popular in a small market. Yet those who are thinking about to start ebiking, don't even know their own requirements. It is only after riding for a while, that a rider can define his needs.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by dogman dan » Jun 18 2017 6:55am

When cars cost way too much, then people will settle for ebikes.

What we do, us whackos that just ride anything with two wheels because we love it so much is not a factor in the main stream.

E bikes and trikes are selling great, to us bike nuts, as the boomers age out and can't pedal anymore.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by 2old » Jun 18 2017 10:27am

CA, like much of the US, was developed after the advent of the automobile and it's not feasible for many to commute any way but by auto. My drive is 22 miles which requires about 25 minutes most days. There's a convoluted route that might get me there by e-bike, but in addition to being dangerous probably would take at least 90 minutes with all the traffic lights. As stated above, it would take a massive change in fuel cost or some other parameter to alter our habits.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by Ianhill » Jun 18 2017 10:53am

2old wrote:CA, like much of the US, was developed after the advent of the automobile and it's not feasible for many to commute any way but by auto. My drive is 22 miles which requires about 25 minutes most days. There's a convoluted route that might get me there by e-bike, but in addition to being dangerous probably would take at least 90 minutes with all the traffic lights. As stated above, it would take a massive change in fuel cost or some other parameter to alter our habits.
In my area even the ice engine bikers stop riding in winter they like they bones to stay whole even if most of them are full of metal, driving in the sun is relaxing but that same trip to work during a winter storm is a matter of life and death cars do add a level of security and we can arrive at destination not even needing to put a brush through our hair.

Due to this ebikes can never dominate an enclosed vehicle it's just not practical enough.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by boytitan » Jun 18 2017 12:08pm

rumme wrote:Ty for the link....no, this doesn't do the specs I stated. Yes, you can upgrade to a 21 AH battery , but the cost then comes to $2548 , . Also, there isn't any suspension on front or rear, and not even a seatpost suspension. So from a percentage standpoint in cost, it is much more then my stats . But I will admit this gets us closer . Also, I do not consider a 20 HA battery " absurd" . I weigh 240 lbs and have steep roads and often travel 16-20 miles distance. If my battery was only the normal 11 AH:s , it would not work for my needs. Furthermore, I would assume that many of these ebikes that people purchase with low AH battery packs, are one of the main regrets the owner has . Its always better to have more AH"s in a battery pack then you need, then less.

Also, a 50 amp controller on a 48 volt battery can get you to 30 MPH...I know because I also build ebikes. Finally it says it is a geared hub motor. I tried a 750 watt bafang geared hub motor, and was not impressed, and went back to D.D. hub motors. So as we see, this ebike is not the price or stats I suggested , but I am glad you gave the link. This is a step in the right direction for ebikes and mainstream IMHO.

Update..it looks like this company has done a upgrade, and is offering front suspension , but I'm not sure if it increases price. The photo on their website, shows the ebike without front suspension,.

48v at 20 ah is doable just not for the price you want. I have 48v@ 28 ah of battery using 2 14ah batteries and that cost me just over 600 dollars getting lucky in auctions. It should have cost me 800-1200dollars just for that much battery. You can't make a 1800 dollar ebike with that kinda battery and make a profit. Batteries are expensive. Also ah is not the term you are looking for you should use watt hours. 48vx20 ah is 960 wh but a 72v battery with a 14 ah battery is 1008 wh.



Again 50 amps and 48 volts is no longer 1000 wats you are now running is 2400 watts and you are probably hitting 40mph with that kinda wattage depending on the hub motors winding. With that kinda amperage even 1200 watt hours is low. you would need 50 ah of 48 volt batteries to get 1 hour of continues range at max throttle with those kinds of amps. Also you now need a heavy duty frame to deal with that speed it would cost 500 bucks the lowest to make a frame to handle that speed.

All motors do not perform the same you can't compare experience with a different motor to another even of the same type. For instance I have used a dd hub motor with a 6T winding and a 7t winding and the the 7T winding motor has more torque but lower acceleration and a 4-5 mph lower top speed then the 6T motor but the 7 t winding motor handles hills and wind better.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by arthurtuxedo » Jun 18 2017 12:22pm

MadRhino wrote:None of the ebikes that you can design today, will make people start riding ebikes instead of personnal cars. Even if you sell it half of the cost to build it.

The habit and fashion of the personnal car is not about to vanish. It will take a major crisis, and strong legal incitatives. The average people change when they are forced to. Those who are changing by consciousness are few, and if they have a common concern, their requirements are a very wide variety.

When the use of personnal car will fade, only then some ebikes will become mainstream. It will not be for their cost, because any ebike is so much cheaper mean of transportation anyway. It will be for their look, performance and practical design. Until then, ebikes are a marginal mean of transportation and most of them are leisure or sport oriented. If a production ebike could meet now, the leisure or sport requirements of most, it would become popular in a small market. Yet those who are thinking about to start ebiking, don't even know their own requirements. It is only after riding for a while, that a rider can define his needs.
You're completely right, and it's a shame. I wish I could make people understand how slow, expensive, and frustrating it is to drive for a person that is used to getting around on two wheels. Instead they pity me and offer to give me rides.

Widespread cycling suffers from a chicken and egg problem: There aren't enough cyclists to dispel the myths, so negative attitudes about cycling persist, so proposals to expand bike infrastructure don't pass and when they do they are underfunded and designed by planners who don't bike. This discourages people from cycling and the negative loop starts over.

I wish I could agree that people would give up their cars when driving is prohibitively expensive, but that's already the case for huge swaths of the population. They either get rides from other people, spend hours on buses with multiple transfers, or just allow themselves to be trapped in their neighborhood with no way to get a job or get around. Even a Stromer ST 2 S is a bargain compared to the 5-year total cost of owning a car (any car, even if the car itself was free), yet people would rather drive themselves straight into poverty than consider cycling. It's utterly baffling to me, but it seems to be one of the most strongly entrenched cultural norms that exists.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 18 2017 12:58pm

48 volt/ 20 AH battery packs have come down in price. I bought one last year, brand new for $430 shipped to my door . It puts out 30 amp constant and 50 amp bursts . I have not had 1 problem with it.

Mark my words, in the near future, there will be a company to offer the ebike with the stats I posted in the price range I posted. Just like, if someone had told you 4 years ago, that someone like Sondors would come along and make the best selling ebike of all time, for $600, you would not have thought that possible.

The HYPERFAT ebike, in this thread, comes close with a 17.5 AH battery/ 48 volt for $2150 shipped but it only has a option of geared hub motor, which I'm not fond of. Geared hub motors are usually much louder and more complicated { more parts to break/ weardown} then direct drive hub motors. I would rather have a simple but efficient direct drive hub motor of 1000 watt nominal rating, with a higher T count , or even a 500 watt nominal mid drive motor, then a geared hub motor .

The day of the cleanly manufactured ebike with a 1000 watt nominal motor , 48 volt/ 20 AH battery and controller capable of 40 amps , with suspension and 3 frame sizes, and the ability to do 30 mph , for UNDER $2000, is getting closer each month. I believe breaking the $2000 price barrier for this type of ebike performance is key , just like the sondors broke a specific price barrier for a entry level ebike and he made a ton of money on that simple concept.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by markz » Jun 18 2017 1:32pm

I remember that ordeal about Sondors, can't blame Chalo for assuming something without the product being in his hands. But if I remember correctly, Chalo did receive a Sondors in the bike shop and he did do a full complete update on the B.S.O. ebike. But we shouldnt get too much into the Sondors ordeal or debate here, just on a general basis as it compares to the OP topic because it was a mass produced ebike.

Perhaps the most we should get into is how the Sondors e-bicycle has helped many people get the ebike grin and how many units Sondors has sold. I've only seen one here in Calgary, in the downtown core in the bike lane and some old guy with a bushy beard was riding it, wasnt a business man/suit type, not a hipster, maybe a construction worker who lost his license due to a dui - who knows. Sondors is not the greatest product to buy I agree with that. But perhaps it gives some reassurances from buying from Sondors that some ebay seller, or China purchase does not fullfill. Perhaps the price point is appealing to their customer base. Could be its appealing to some old farts who never have used ebay before, or they dont know where to look to buy an ebike.

rumme » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:58 am
48 volt/ 20 AH battery packs have come down in price.
You talking mainstream battery pack suppliers like Justin at GrinTech or you talking some fly by night outfit?

To me it seems the average price for a professionally built pack is $60/Ah (CAD) around the 48V mark. Justin, HD's EGO pack, Allcell etc. But to build your own, it is 60% the price. Who the frock knows what the shady characters on ebay, Aliexpress and Alibaba are charging. Look at the recent ES member who's garage burnt down from an Alibaba/Aliexpress purchase. I dunno what the LiPo price point is at, and you have to baby those and know what you are doing.
Last edited by markz on Jun 18 2017 1:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 18 2017 1:37pm

markz wrote:I remember that ordeal about Sondors, can't blame Chalo for assuming something without the product being in his hands. But if I remember correctly, Chalo did receive a Sondors in the bike shop and he did do a full complete update on the B.S.O. ebike. But we shouldnt get too much into the Sondors ordeal or debate here, just on a general basis as it compares to the OP topic because it was a mass produced ebike.

Perhaps the most we should get into is how the Sondors e-bicycle has helped many people get the ebike grin and how many units Sondors has sold. I've only seen one here in Calgary, in the downtown core in the bike lane and some old guy with a bushy beard was riding it, wasnt a business man/suit type, not a hipster, maybe a construction worker who lost his license due to a dui - who knows. Sondors is not the greatest product to buy I agree with that. But perhaps it gives some reassurances from buying from Sondors that some ebay seller, or China purchase does not fullfill. Perhaps the price point is appealing to their customer base. Could be its appealing to some old farts who never have used ebay before, or they dont know where to look to buy an ebike.
For many people who weigh under 150 lbs, the Sondors ebike is probably perfect for their needs and I'm sure the sondors frame is built well enough to handle those consumers. This is why I disagree with Chalos claims that the Sondors is poorly manufactured . For me , it would be , but that's because I weigh 240 lbs and need to go up hilly roads, but there are millions of people who would be happy with the Sondors.

I actually think, that within the next 12-18 months, we will see a new ebike , brought to the masses, with the stats and price point I discussed in the first post of this thread.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by Chalo » Jun 18 2017 3:03pm

All you have to do to ruin a Sondors or any BSO is ride it. It doesn't matter what size you are or what kind of riding you do. The rotating parts of the Sondors are self-destructing, like those of any other BSO. The bearing surfaces aren't smooth or hard enough to work for very long as bearings, and nothing has been appropriately​ adjusted. 19 times out of 20, that means the bearings are adjusted too tight.

You can pay a professional to tune up a BSO and set it as right as possible, and that helps longevity. That's what I have done to Sondors bikes. But it doesn't make the components any better than they are. They are fit for their purpose-- but the purpose of a BSO isn't to be ridden. It's made to be sold, and then its job is done. How well it works after the money changes hands is irrelevant.

Bikesdirect and probably others use the BSO business model, but what they sell is more like a kit that could potentially be used to make a real bike. Sondors (and Mongoose, Roadmaster, Schwinn, etc.) aren't like that. By the time you fix everything that's wrong with one, you might as well have bought a real bike to begin with.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: What will it take to make mass produced ebikes, mainstre

Post by rumme » Jun 18 2017 3:58pm

Chalo wrote:All you have to do to ruin a Sondors or any BSO is ride it. It doesn't matter what size you are or what kind of riding you do. The rotating parts of the Sondors are self-destructing, like those of any other BSO. The bearing surfaces aren't smooth or hard enough to work for very long as bearings, and nothing has been appropriately​ adjusted. 19 times out of 20, that means the bearings are adjusted too tight.

You can pay a professional to tune up a BSO and set it as right as possible, and that helps longevity. That's what I have done to Sondors bikes. But it doesn't make the components any better than they are. They are fit for their purpose-- but the purpose of a BSO isn't to be ridden. It's made to be sold, and then its job is done. How well it works after the money changes hands is irrelevant.

Bikesdirect and probably others use the BSO business model, but what they sell is more like a kit that could potentially be used to make a real bike. Sondors (and Mongoose, Roadmaster, Schwinn, etc.) aren't like that. By the time you fix everything that's wrong with one, you might as well have bought a real bike to begin with.
But your continued critiques, overlook a large segment of consumers who may be interested in a inexpensive ebike for menial and infrequent tasks. For example , the 140 lb person who just wants to ride a ebike, 1 or 2 times per week to go to the grocery store or post office that is 3-4 miles from their home. For this type of consumer, the sondors ebike is a adequate choice. Why should this type of consumer pay $2000 for a ebike, when a $600 Sondors will accomplish their needs ?

This is what you continually ignore. Just because you or me, have no use for a sondors ebike, doesn't mean other people wont . Sondors has PROVEN that the $600 ebike market was a niche that needed to be filled and he made a ton of money filling that niche and the majority of his customers seem satisfied. Why would you
be negative about it ?

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