Custom 2wd thumb throttle

So I'm hoping this works- I haven't tried with both controllers together yet!

These clunky thumb throttles have alot of extra space inside and I wanted one throttle for 2x controllers/motors with convenient switching of fwd rwd 2wd.

And I don't know how it'll work or if it's necessary, but I also wanted a low speed switch for the front motor to run at ~60% the speed of the rear motor. Oh, and rather than spending the time with resistors etc to try to get those dumb led's to correlate to battery voltage, there's enough room for a mini voltmeter!






I went the easy route with it and turned it 90deg- it's stylish :lol:
With a little more work you could keep it horizontal, but imo it fit best/easiest this way. I also detensioned the throttle return spring for maybe 35% 'cushier' thumb action.

Anyway, the original on/off is repurposed to front low/high speed, and the two black micro switches simply turn on/off front an rear controllers.

I only connected the 'primary' (rear) to the voltmeter since it would otherwise back feed always turning both controllers on. I'm not sure if I could easily isolate them instead? Also not sure if I will need to isolate the the 2 throttle 5v circuits?





Tools I used so far: 80w soldering iron and some fine kester 66/44 solder. Dremel, small 'ignition' file, glue gun, heat shrink, lighter, knife and blades, and drill, drill bits, step (uni) bit. And some tiny straight and bent needle nose pliers!

Parts:
Thumb throttle http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ebike-Thumb-Throttle-48v-E-bike-Electric-Bike-Scooter-LED-Meter-on-off-switch-/132113168316?hash=item1ec28ef7bc:g:MnIAAOSwhlZYuGaF
Microswitches http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-Latching-Action-Flashlight-Torch-Push-Button-Switch-DC-30V-1A-Ypxii-/230914853753?hash=item35c3990b79
Mini led http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-DC-2-4-30V-LED-Panel-Voltage-Meter-3-Digital-Voltmeter-Motorcycle-d8V/201946909374?_trksid=p2045573.c100506.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D44883%26meid%3Dab009efadda448c0988e21bfd707a944%26pid%3D100506%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26

Cool project usually you only need the 5v from one controller and you can operate both motors with the singal wires. Dont put both 5v circuits together! Let us know how it comes out

Thanks!

Dont put both 5v circuits together!

Click to expand...

Do you know why / what will happen?

5v from one controller and you can operate both motors with the signal wires

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That means I'd need choose a dedicated 'primary' (always on) controller. So i'd either lose FWD or RWD option.
If tying the 5v circuits will wreck something, can I 'isolate' them?

I like the voltmeter. that's a good solution for people using lipos.

In case you don't know, you don't need to make a double hall throttle to run two motors. You connect it to one controller normally and splice a second signal wire to it, which you run to the second controller, leaving its 5v and ground throttle wires unconnected.

That would be the simplest way, but what if you wanna be able to use each motor independantly?
What I'm after is option of FWD RWD or 2WD by selecting which controller is on.


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I like the voltmeter

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Yeah they're really small, inexpensive, and effective. It's a little surprising I couldn't find a throttle with one already in. Obviously the user has to know how the voltages correspond to their pack, but imo it's the best fuel gauge for any battery chemistry.
They sell the meters on amazon too, and there's some reviews/pics and ideas. Making the lense was the trickiest part of the install. In the last picture above, the red you see is part of the letter "P" from a posted sign lol. Just the right red and transparency. Then there's a clear plastic lense cut from a container over that.

On my 2WD bikes, I normally run the rear motor from the PAS for normal riding, for which you need a controller with a proper PAS function with several levels, like KT with LCD. The throttle works both motors when I want fast acceleration, extra hill-climbing power or better traction on slippery surfaces.

If 2 controllers share a single throttle, the controllers should be placed close together w/ a dedicated common ground. Still, some degradation of throttle "feel" should be expected.
The simplest way to have independent control of the frt. and rear motors in a 2WD system is to use 2 throttles configured like this;




A "up-side down" thumb is placed to the inside of a left-hand, half-twist.

It is very easy and intuitive to use.
The majority of time, I run the rear w/ PAS and just "stab" the thumb when I want to engage the frt. motor.
I run 2 completely independent systems w/ 2 12S(46V) packs. The main pack is 20Ah and the frt. "aux." pack is 5Ah. the 4 to 1 ratio nicely corresponds to how I use the systems together and the 2 packs discharge almost always at the same rate.

As mentioned above, Voltmeters make very good "Fuel" gauges w/ LiPoly due to it's linear discharge rate. I use 2 flat mini Voltmeters(one for ea. system)from Luna. For some reason, they seem to have discontinued them

I like that 2x throttle solution motomech. (And nice bike!). I think I'd make a bigger 'paddle' to extend further left and be really happy with it. Worth a try it depending on if I like this one or not!

So to make this one work it looks like I have two options.

Option 1 : Cut 5v from the front controller and just use the signal wire. Rear motor will always be active but I can conveniently turn off the front or gear it down with my thumb.

Option 2 : Connect both the throttle 5v up and see what happens with each controller on/off. (since no one seems to know?).

I didn't think it'd be a big deal to backfeed the 5volt logic to the controller that was 'off', since it's 'on' switch is pack voltage, not 5volt. And I can't think of how it would hurt for the two controllers both 'on' to share the 5v logic. So what's gonna happen?

Controllers will run from the same pack (so grounded), wiring can be very similar, including motor wiring.

But I planned to only use one throttle ground- the rear one. ?
And throttle cables might be a foot different in length too. ?

I'm gonna have to hunt down teklektik - I think he did something similar with isolators - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36959&p=536905#p536905 His build thread is SICK, but I don't see the answers- most of it's way over my head. Need to take an hour or so and read thru it.

The common (ground) doesnt even need to go to the controllers IMO, it could go to battery neg. I believe the 5v circuit is not active when controller switching circuit is off, but something is active obviously since there is still some current draw when the switch is off. The difference of length of wiring on the 5v circuit is not a problem.

+1 on Motomech's throttle set up. I copied his installation but with right hand throttles on the right bar. It didn't take long for the combo to feel perfectly normal. I like that with my palm on the half twist and my thumb on the thumb throttle I can make fine adjustments to the front/rear power. My front motor is faster than the rear so I bring it in gradually after starting with the rear. I mounted separate switches so that it can be front, rear, or both.

Option 2 : Connect both the throttle 5v up and see what happens with each controller on/off. (since no one seems to know?).

Click to expand...

I know, at least for the components I used(2 X KU63, genaric thumb)and I implied my findings in the fist sentence of my response. Halving the 5V signal made the combined use of the 2 controllers feel courser and the systems overall felt less refined. It was bad enough that I didn't use it that way very long.
The next thing I did was to run the frt. controller's turn on/off wire(these are pre-display controllers)to a button, but using it that way was awkward.
I was just about to use a Cycle Analyst to generate a signal for the second controller when I came on the current 2 throttle set-up.
I guess what type of throttle set-up depends on what one wants out of a 2WD build and my goals were two-fold. On the street, I wanted a rear system that was low enough power that PAS was smooth and meaningful, but at the same time, having enough overall system power to "plow" though any semi-deep sand trails that I encounter here in S. Az. I don't care about climbing rocky crags and lofting" the frt. end. I just avoid the serious MXB trails, but I can't avoid the sand washes.
The other day, I was riding on a smooth, but loose surface(sand and gravel)trail and w/ dual throttle hand control, I could keep the rear tire right on the edge of spinning, while at the same time, I could modulate the frt. where it was for the most part spinning. It's amazing what the human brain(even mine)can do without thinking about it.
In fact, the only time I do have to "give" thought to the throttles, is more the short comings of the genaric twist, than the the 2 throttle combo. AS we all know, these cheap throttles are not "quick twist and w/ mine, the first third of the rotation does little. So at times, I find myself "re-grabbing" the grip so I can "roll" my palm over it for quicker action.
So, I would think that a 2WD "fatty" would see some loose surface trails and the 2 independent throttle approach would be the way to go. For the low cost and ease of installation, I think you should try it first before complicating things.

Note: Lyen has left-hand, half-twist throttles.

I have almost unlimited handlebar space:

See 2:00...


[youtube]IHHC0HG_5do[/youtube]

Thanks for the replies guys. So it sounds like running both 5v circuits together thru one throttle might just make it feel a little sloppy or weird? Waiting on spokes but I can mock it up and try.

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+1 on Motomech's throttle set up. I copied his installation but with right hand throttles on the right bar. It didn't take long for the combo to feel perfectly normal. I like that with my palm on the half twist and my thumb on the thumb throttle I can make fine adjustments to the front/rear power. My front motor is faster than the rear so I bring it in gradually after starting with the rear.

Click to expand...

So you did the thumb/twist too, but I don't understand what you mean :

I mounted separate switches so that it can be front, rear, or both

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So you can just use twist or thumb for fwd rwd or 2wd? That's what I want- is there anything special you did, or do you have build info?

I installed a thumb throttle next to a half twist throttle. The thumb throttle controls the front Q100 motor and the twist throttle controls the rear Q100. I put side by side switches on the handle bar for the ignition wires and labeled them front and rear. This way I can turn on either of the controllers or both at the same time. The two controllers remain independent with no shared wires.
Credit goes to motomech for this configuration. I was planning a Rube Goldberg contraption with a cable pull to a box with two throttles inside when I looked at one of his posts and saw how he positioned his two throttles. I just put it together a month ago and I'm still amazed at how easy it was to get used to and the flexibility it allows. It is the simplest solution and since the two systems remain independent if something goes wrong with one, the other should still work well enough to get me home.
I like your mini volt meter and since I have no indicator lights to let me know when the bike is powered on I plan on installing one to come on with my rear ignition switch.

I tried to use the sine wave controllers w/ their LCD displays when they first came out, but there were problems getting them to interface well w/ the odd LiPoly Voltage values, so, by default, I had to go w/ the simpler LED displays. I lost the "torque Imitation", 5-level Current limiting PAS, but the found the "3-speed limiting" PAS worked well enough on my low powered systems. And the LED displays had some advantages for my set-up. They are smaller, easier to mount and more stealthly, especially at nite(although the LCD's can be dimmed).
Here I have mounted the displays out on the end of the bars so I can adjust the 3-speed limiters w/out taking my hands off the grips. I never bother turning the frt. motor off on the fly, but if I don't use it for 10 minutes or so, the display's time-out function turns it off. So either speed limiter can be adjusted on the fly, although I seldom do that. Really the only time I want the speed limiter is w/ the PAS and it's only on the rear motor. The top speed on the rear motor only is 22 to 23 mph and w/ my 11T X 50T gearing, I can't quite keep up. #2 speed(18 to 20 mph)works much better.



The red button activates the PAS.
The mini- headlites are mounted on top of the brk. and clutch hydro reservoirs

I tried several different types and styles before I found Luna's flat LCD's.
The first thing I found was the LED types drew enough Current to pull down the pack and they need to have a way of turning them off.
The LCD's, w/ no lite draw only Mili-Amps and can be left "on" all the time. The back-lite on my flat LCDs is activated by a push buttom and times out after 10 Sec. Pretty much "mount them and forget them".
And their flat form factor made it easy to just slip them under the clear vinyl on my top frame pack.

Thanks guys. Ok I see now Hwy89, that makes sense. Any reduncancy is always good for dependability! Btw I just saw from boyntonstu that ebay has half-twists with those little voltmeters already in them, and on/off or keyswitch. It would be easy and cheap addition to dual throttles, if the thumb throttle can get still get in close enough.

I tried my dual setup but think I ought to wire up the halls too, just to be sure. It seem to work fine fwd rwd or 2wd.
One controller def starts the hub spinning a little sooner, so that would be the one for the rear, but is also a little jerky like it's not running uncensored properly so I should do halls too. One other issue that might be new- the 'speed limit' function I planned to use for the front hub works, but the hub doesn't even start spinning until 50% throttle action, so it might be kinda useless? I didn't remember it doing that before- I thought it worked just like a 3spd switch (with 2 speeds of course). Will trouble shoot by using a different throttle and single out the controller, and maybe try the other controller too if I can locate the pads on the different board.

If these dam spokes ever get here I'll be able to build wheels, weld up mounts / dropout reinforcement, mount racks and guards, wire/mount controllers to racks, and finally more definitively play with control, fit, and finish. I'll post up how/if this works and/or if I like it!

Nothing extra on my bars except the two throttles and two switches. Didn't mount the displays because what is the point of a three speed switch if you have a throttle. Same with pedal assist. I mostly pedal all the time and add just enough power to keep some tension on the pedals. I find the throttle to be very handy in tight spots and around obstacles to prevent pedal strike. Having the front throttle is especially valuable for ground handling when you have to get off and push. It will climb stairs with the front motor and a little push.
The only thing I want to add is an indicator light to let me know when the power is on and a mini volt meter might be a good addition since I already have pack voltage to the ignition switches.

I used to pedal along in the manor you are describing. I would set the cruise to a certain speed and pedal on top of that speed to add a MPH or 2. The problem w/ that is, even on a long straight, things change, inclines, wind, road conditions, etc, which would require adjusting my cadence. It was even worse trying to hold the throttle steady and match the pedaling.
And finally, d8veh(Dave)convinced me to try the PAS and as usual, he was right.
It works so well, I dis-connected the cruise control because I can give my throttle hand a rest w/ the PAS.
If you don't want to remove the crank to install the PAS disc, Grin(Ebike CA)sells a 2-piece disc that clips together.
You really should try it, I wouldn't want to go w/out it now.

PAS will be even better if you use one of those sine wave KT controllers with the LCD. They use current control on the PAS rather than the speed control from yours. You should try one. They have so many advantages over what you have.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/pic.asp?ModID=PicS224&TypID=S220052

over the years I've used every conceivable configuration of throttle and mixed throttle/PAS to control two motors.
My latest version, which is simply having one motor's throttle on the right side and the other motor's throttle on the left side of the handlebars (absolute simplest) is also my favorite, allowing precise control over the amount of thrust.
My other trike feature two thumb throttles close enough to operate with one thumb only...

no matter which configuration I've used, it has been no problem 'getting used to'...

I had issues with one throttle controlling two motors the few times I implemented them so I stopped using that type of configuration. (no electrical problems, just operating issues)
My meters are built into my battery cases (only have to look down to see them) and I only run indicator lights on the handlebars (those incredibly un-useful 'battery power' lights get used for something else)

d8veh said:

PAS will be even better if you use one of those sine wave KT controllers with the LCD. They use current control on the PAS rather than the speed control from yours. You should try one. They have so many advantages over what you have.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/pic.asp?ModID=PicS224&TypID=S220052

Click to expand...

Dave, you have me interested in trying a KT controller on my assist bike(Rear Q100 CST on 12 S LiPoly). When I tried the early SO6S/LCD-3, I had some problems mating it to my LiPoly, although it could have been my inexperience in setting the parameters.
Do you know anyone using the KT w/ 12S?
Although the LED display would be my perferance, I recall you commenting the LCD display should be used to make best use of the features. I'm unclear on what the differences between the LCD-2, LCD-3 and LCD-5. Is it mostly a matter of mounting and form factor?
Lastly, would the wht. wire from the Q100C work as the speed sensor?
Thanx in advance.

You should use a 48v controller with 12S lipos, then you get the benefit of the LVC set around 40v. It's normally adjustable with these controllers.

Use one of these:
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-3F-39N8.50CQE

I managed to get a pair of 14 amp ones from Aliexpress, but they don't seem to be available anymore:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Regeneration-Electric-Bicycle-Brush-less-Controller-48V-6-MOSFET/1749495210.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.E4okdh

I ended up buying 2x 18 fet 42v lvc controllers from aliexpress. Nonprogramable tho.

I also went to open the thumb throttle one last time and the retainer for the twist part broke along with a magnet holder. Dope. Luckily I saw boyntonstu's post and ordered a keyswitch half twist throttle. . . .

It works as main ignition and throttle, and I used a standard 3spd switch body to house 2x micro on/off switches to go from FWD RWD and 2WD. With matching controllers the 3 speeds work flawlessly for full throttle on any or both motors. . . . I tied all three wires for throttle and three speed together so there's no issue of back feeding either controller that may be off on it's 5v circuitry. I did try to keep all wiring the same length, but that's natural with battery in the triangle.



Really pleased with testing so far.