Need to make my bike legal

Hello all,
I am in urgent need of your help. I am building an electric bike for my end of year school project and i came across a frustrating complication. In Australia the legal requirement is that the electric bike runs at 250W, however as im sure you all know building a 250w electric bike is a waste of time. I was thinking of having a 500W motor kit, with as speed limiter so like a switch for on road use (250W) and of-road use (500w). the bike has to be legal because its for school Im looking at this kit.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electric-Bicycle-Cycle-Bike-Conversion-Kit-Rear-Wheel-48-Volt-500W-500-Watt/132132014775?_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D99c3cdc2e6bb405d85891717606eeaa3%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D172581094633&_trkparms=pageci%253A5ab09755-5c79-11e7-aa8e-74dbd1801ea1%257Cparentrq%253Af1d9ae3615c0aa162810e1d5fffe1019%257Ciid%253A1

He said he will do it for 640. Is there a way i can make this capable of outputting 250W and 500W.

Best bet to get the most from 250w, is to go with a mid drive.

That kit does not appear to have a three speed switch, or display that allows selecting a lower power limit. Ask the vendor about it, I'm just saying I don't see it in the picture.

Half throttle would be lower wattage, as would a very cheap, lower power controller.

Some just stick a "250" sticker on the motor, but its not making it legal.

To be legal, it has to comply with EN15194, which allows a motor with a continuous rated power of no more than 250w. You can use any motor that's listed or marked as 250w. There's no limit on how much power you feed into that motor. You cannot use a 500w or 1000w motor and limit it to 250w in some way, so that Ebay kit will always be illegal no matter what you do with it.

To get what you want, use any 250w 36 v geared hub-motor and run it with a 48v battery and a controller around 18 amps. Throttles are not allowed, so you need a controller with a good PAS function, like Kunteng. That will give you 600w at the back wheel, which is probably enough. Don't forget that you must limit the assistance to 25 km/h, which you can do through the LCD of those KT controllers. With a good PAS system, you don't need a throttle.

If you want an OEM bike, look for one with the Bafang Max-drive middle motor. they can be reprogrammed to give a lot more power.

https://www.emax-ebikes.com.au/products/emax-electrics-edi-premium-electric-bikes

BBSHD with an eggrider display. Pretty slick. I plan on keeping my old display mounted. If I get pulled over just change to legal mode, grab my cellphone and switch display connections. Best i've come up with so far. I feel like 500W woukd be dissapointing...but im used to the BBSHD.

250w isn't legal in Australia, unless you also go pedal assist only, limit to 48v, cut power at 25km/h, go through a battery of electrical noise tests, and some safety checks. In other words, fully comply with ASA 15194:2016 as released by Standards Australia:

https://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/PreviewDoc.aspx?saleItemID=2938359

If you don't want to go through certification, you need to limit it to 200w.

Best way to do that is to buy a programmable controller with two profiles, or a cycle analyst that will do the same thing:

Programmable Controller: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html

Cycle Analyst: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

Sunder said:

If you don't want to go through certification, you need to limit it to 200w.

Best way to do that is to buy a programmable controller with two profiles, or a cycle analyst that will do the same thing:

Programmable Controller: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html

Cycle Analyst: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

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What power would you limit it to? Isn't the 200w rule to use a motor with a continuous rated output power of no more than 200w? That rules out any motor marked 250w. We used to have the 200w rule in the UK before they changed it to 250w.

Whether it's the old 200w or the new 250w, there's no limit on how much power you can push through the motor. The Heinzmann motor was rated at 200w and its controller gave 28 amps at 36v, which was totally legal under the 200w rule.

There's no way you can tie the controller's maximum current from the battery to continuous output power because there's too many variables. The word "rated" means exactly that, not "actual" power.

d8veh said:

What power would you limit it to? Isn't the 200w rule to use a motor with a continuous rated output power of no more than 200w? That rules out any motor marked 250w. We used to have the 200w rule in the UK before they changed it to 250w.

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I would put it on a dyno, and select a figure on the controller/cycle analyst such that the bike does not produce over 200w on the dyno.

d8veh said:

Whether it's the old 200w or the new 250w, there's no limit on how much power you can push through the motor. The Heinzmann motor was rated at 200w and its controller gave 28 amps at 36v, which was totally legal under the 200w rule.

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That is incorrect. The old law was phrased (This is a verbatim quote):

"A pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts."

Which is interpreted to mean that that even the smallest measurable quantity of time exceeding 200w is illegal. No continuous maximums if you are hoping to comply under the old law.

Sunder said:

d8veh said:

What power would you limit it to? Isn't the 200w rule to use a motor with a continuous rated output power of no more than 200w? That rules out any motor marked 250w. We used to have the 200w rule in the UK before they changed it to 250w.

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I would put it on a dyno, and select a figure on the controller/cycle analyst such that the bike does not produce over 200w on the dyno.

d8veh said:

The old law was phrased (This is a verbatim quote):

"A pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts."

Which is interpreted to mean that that even the smallest measurable quantity of time exceeding 200w is illegal. No continuous maximums if you are hoping to comply under the old law.

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OK, that's different to the old UK law. 200w is nothing. Even the old 24v gutless Panasonic crank-drives put out something like 300w and the extremely weak 24v hub-motor bikes with only 12 amps output about 260w. I've never seen an e-bike with less than that. Are there bikes in Australia with 6A maximum 36v controllers or 9A 24v ones? Any more would be illegal under that definition.

Or can you simply change your project and tell your teachers the bike is only for off-road use on private property?

Appreciate the tips, but Id rather go for the 500W kit as its great value for money and I can purchase it locally. I can buy another controller that will run the bike at 250W as well as put a 250w sticker on the motor :wink: . I can always swap back the other controller when I am going of-road. Once again thank you very much and I appreciate the help. If you have anything else to say please feel free to DM me or just post below.

Thanks

In case you don't know, a good 250w geared hub motor will give you a lot more power than a 500w direct drive motor with a controller set to 250w, and much of the time it'll give you more power than the 500w DD motor with a 500w controller. A friend of mine had a bike with a cheap 1000w DD kit, which he wasn't happy with, so he sold it and bought an OEM 250w bike. The new bike beat his best commute time by 20 minutes, which was about 20% faster overall.

Those cheap 500w DD kits are gutless, as you'll find out if you buy one. The 1000w kits are a bit better. Both of them are not too bad if your rides are flat and you can stay at a steady high speed, but they're not really suitable for city riding, off-road riding hilly rides or anything like that.

Sunder said:

250w isn't legal in Australia, unless you also go pedal assist only, limit to 48v, cut power at 25km/h, go through a battery of electrical noise tests, and some safety checks. In other words, fully comply with ASA 15194:2016 as released by Standards Australia:

https://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/PreviewDoc.aspx?saleItemID=2938359

If you don't want to go through certification, you need to limit it to 200w.
l

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Was looking around for a full copy of the standards? Appears to be $175

With such legal requirements, you might as well buy a couple of guinea pigs and trap them in the hub.

Imagine that those who voted this stupid law, are burning gas in big SUV's and limousines. Crave the day when fuel will be rationed to 2 l a month.

d8veh said:

You can use any motor that's listed or marked as 250w.

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I would just stamp a 250W marking on a 1000W motor, and do a lot of fake pedaling while cruising along with all the other bicyclists around you. Then I would install a rear rack and pannier bags. Plus I would install a 52T crank ring up front, and a rear cassette matching your shifters that had an 11T in the lineup.

Thats what I'd do. :lol: 8)

MadRhino said:

With such legal requirements, you might as well buy a couple of guinea pigs and trap them in the hub.

Imagine that those who voted this stupid law, are burning gas in big SUV's and limousines. Crave the day when fuel will be rationed to 2 l a month.

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Well, nothing stopping adding front hub - guinea pig assist, plus strap a pelican to one's helmet

Ozzzz said:

MadRhino said:

With such legal requirements, you might as well buy a couple of guinea pigs and trap them in the hub.

Imagine that those who voted this stupid law, are burning gas in big SUV's and limousines. Crave the day when fuel will be rationed to 2 l a month.

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Well, nothing stopping adding front hub - guinea pig assist, plus strap a pelican to one's helmet

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Anyone designing a guinea pig assist hub should be aware of the emerging regulatory framework on guinea pigs.

In Switzerland, it is forbidden to utilize a single GP. Regulations insist they must be in pairs at minimum:
https://www.techly.com.au/2016/03/14/in-switzerland-its-illegal-to-own-just-one-guinea-pig-due-to-loneliness/
Rumor has it that Sweden may have adopted same regulation.

In Australia, there have been moves to limit the maximum the total number of GPs permitted to as few as 3:
http://www.guineapigtoday.com/2012/02/07/young-girl-shapes-new-laws-that-limit-guinea-pigs-in-australia/

So for broadest market, anyone designing a GP-assist drive should probably design for either 2 or 3 GPs as motive force.

Since GPs don't really benefit from running in series, best design for power utilization is probably parallel.
Maybe 2 GP drive for around town, 3 GP drive for longer distance touring or on hills where more torque is desired?

Not sure about any rules for pelicans, but might be worth researching.

Another alternative is to put the politicians in the cage but they are rarely capable of pulling their own weight.

You have to decide if you want to actually be legal, or just appear to be legal.

mid drive 250W, will get you to where you need to go, at the legal limit of 25km/h for electric pedal assist.

You will need to remove any throttle, and rely on Pedal Assist only (unless it is under 200W)

The only way to truly be sure is to buy a EN15194 complied bike (hello $3000AUD minimum)

Otherwise so long as you're not riding like a fool, weaving in and out of traffic, I doubt you will have issues. However be aware, if you hit someone you'll be in big trouble.

Good luck,

Andy

Just get some of these:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35048&hilit=big+chicken+motor

I dont get all the fuss over "Is it legal"
just dont be an inconsiderate asshole when riding and the coppers wont pull you aside..... if they can catch ya that is

Today, for example, I rode behind a sweating fat dude pedaling, just cuz he had a good pace going and there were too many ppl on the pathways. I ended up doing 40km today. A pig even drove behind me on a residential roadway, and my bikes obvious man, I must have been doing 40 or 50kph empty road, long weekend some kids playing about... they dont care.

markz said:

I dont get all the fuss over "Is it legal" ...

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You have a fair point is most cases but there is the exception.

You could be hit from the rear by a drunk in a rusty pickup. If it's lawyers (who profess not ethics or morals) can prove your machine is illegal and should not have been allowed on public pavements then while you are you spending months in hospital recovering from injuries they will insist the court award their unfortunate client compensation for his pain and suffering, a new pickup, their own exorbitant legal fees as well as punitive damages to teach you a well deserved lesson.

ES members are all over the world. They are living with different ebike regulations, different road laws, and different attitude of the police toward ebikes.

Some places are making it easy, without any legal risk. If you are living in some area where ebikes are strictly controled, or the police don't like you personnally, don't go thinking it is the same for other members. You are the only one to decide for yourself, the power and speed that you build your bike for. You assume the risk in the conditions that you ride, so do I. :wink:

LewTwo said:

markz said:

I dont get all the fuss over "Is it legal" ...

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You have a fair point is most cases but there is the exception.

You could be hit from the rear by a drunk in a rusty pickup. If it's lawyers (who profess not ethics or morals) can prove your machine is illegal and should not have been allowed on public pavements then while you are you spending months in hospital recovering from injuries they will insist the court award their unfortunate client compensation for his pain and suffering, a new pickup, their own exorbitant legal fees as well as punitive damages to teach you a well deserved lesson.

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Spot on. And I ride motorbikes, liability aside there's also demerits & loss of licence. The laws suck but i'm keen to comply.
That and it's ok, cruising around at a slow pace is a different experience not a lesser one (though throttle and 500w/750w, is a much better limit).

Whats Quebec like?

I had a cop follow me once here in Calgary AB but he was just patrolling and I was on the road, residential burbs, 40kph (so a lil speedy) cant remember what my ebike "looked" like at the time, I think it was pannier bag look or it could have been batteries showing on down tube holder. But he was behind me so he would saw the controller ontop of the rack.

Havent run into any pathway heat.

MadRhino said:

ES members are all over the world. They are living with different ebike regulations, different road laws, and different attitude of the police toward ebikes.

Some places are making it easy, without any legal risk. If you are living in some area where ebikes are strictly controled, or the police don't like you personnally, don't go thinking it is the same for other members. You are the only one to decide for yourself, the power and speed that you build your bike for. You assume the risk in the conditions that you ride, so do I. :wink:

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Hi Ahmed,
My recommendation would be to contact Justin at bikes.ca or Paul at EM3ev. Both sell motor and controller combinations that will allow you to meet your specification (more or less). You've been given good advice about the motor. My recommendation would be simply to start with a small geared motor and really focus on managing your motor output via choice of controller and battery. There is nothing at all 'wrong' with Australia's 200w and 250w limits. Both are quite useful - to a point! It just depends what use you want to put the bike to! You can take a large 1000w+ DD motor and run it at 36V with a low-amp controller and come close to 250w. But as someone has pointed out - it may be difficult to find a controller that limits current to the degree required. With the same large DD motor you can change the controller and voltage and be in completely different territory! If I were you I would make the 'wattage challenge' a central theme of my project. In other words, focus on the technical challenge of building a 'road legal' e-bike in Australia, identifying all of the variables and elements and showing that you have mastered the calls etc!
I've been on the periphery of submissions and discussions of the e-bike laws for sometime in a general bike advocacy role. I can tell you that the commercial side of the bike industry has had a great impact on the current Australian laws! Their main message appears to have been 'give us laws that will help us to sell as many low-powered, cheaply-made, high-profit e-bikes as we can'. The commercial interests I have spoken to had no interest in laws that would allow more powerful bikes simply because they didn't feel they could sell enough to make their businesses viable. They were not interested in acknowledging that Australian commuting distances were far longer in area that those in Europe or Asia or that a growing e-bike culture in Australia might benefit from a different approach. If I were doing a project like yours I'd be focussing on questions such as this as well...
Sam.