Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 09, 2017 4:45 pm

Hello everyone,

[EDIT: When the frame arrived, it was discovered to be for 26" wheels, NOT the 700C I'd ordered. They didn't have the Stinson Euro model in 700C, so I had to take the nearly identical San Rafael model instead - in a bluish-gray instead of silver. I'm leaving this now wrong data here, and am providing the updated information beyond post 8 below!]

my first e-bike I built only in June, converting over an old road bike into a truly capable, multifaceted machine. But an injury since then has pushed me to go for a step-through since I re-injured myself (a knee) not less than 6 times just in mounting or dismounting the bike. That bike's build, including a lot of detail about the decisions made, vendors, pricing, gearing issues, advice others gave me and much more can be found here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=88943

I then traded another bike I had but had never ridden and never would ride to get a step-through. And so I started another thread about it. However, as I rode it, it quickly became apparent that the step-through height wasn't low enough, and the bike was overall a bit too small, though I rode it anyway a number of times. That thread can be found here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1310834

...On that thread I was given a pointer to a vendor with inexpensive bike frames and I found they were selling the lowest-step-through frame I've ever seen - and maybe well in the running for the lowest step-through height possible for a given size! Combined with a tiny windfall profit of a few bucks I could apply toward a full build, went for it, and now, this is the story of this new bike, the Marin Stinson Euro. It's Tuesday and I'm expecting frame delivery on Friday, Monday at the latest.

Here are the vendor's images of the frame. First, the whole frame. The lighting was apparently a bit poor - it's a silver frame, as can be seen better in subsequent images. Also note the angle of the head tube relative to the seat tube. I could have selected the San Rafael model which is nearly identical but has a parallel head tube to seat tube orientation. To wit:
365663-1_whole_frame_1_2.jpg
365663-1_whole_frame_1_2.jpg (25.42 KiB) Viewed 1402 times
Here, we can see the head tube attachment to the down tube. Note the brazed on eyelets - there are a lot of them! There's a whole nother row of these on the other side for three parallel eyelets...
365663-4_HeadTube_to_DownTube_2_2.jpg
365663-4_HeadTube_to_DownTube_2_2.jpg (29.25 KiB) Viewed 1402 times
Now, the seat tube to seat stays. It turns out the frame will accommodate some pretty wide tires - I guess that's what "comfort" is all about here! So, I ordered up 2" tires for the 700c wheels...
365663-2_SeatTube_to_SeatStays_1_2.jpg
365663-2_SeatTube_to_SeatStays_1_2.jpg (37.19 KiB) Viewed 1402 times
Next up, love the fact that it's got FOUR M6 threaded accessory anchors. If you look at my first ebike build thread (link above), you'll see I made good use of those accessory anchors! I'll be doing something like that again here...
365663-6_rear_dropouts_2_2.jpg
365663-6_rear_dropouts_2_2.jpg (30.53 KiB) Viewed 1402 times
OK, that's enough for now. I'll be adding more information about this build on this thread soon!
Last edited by RTIII on Aug 14, 2017 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

John in CR
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 13762
Joined: May 20, 2008 12:58 am
Location: Paradise

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by John in CR » Aug 09, 2017 10:10 pm

Ignoring the fact that I'm too hard on my bikes to ever trust such a design in aluminum, where are you going to put the batteries?...In a backpack?

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 10, 2017 12:53 am

John in CR wrote:Ignoring the fact that I'm too hard on my bikes to ever trust such a design in aluminum, where are you going to put the batteries?...In a backpack?
-blink-blink-

...Are you new to E-bikes?

The obvious choice is the seat tube, which I've already been using quite successfully for some time:

Image

I'm hopeful that you'll never be injured and feel the need for a step-through like this and also that you'll not be a detractor for those of us who do feel the need.

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 23938
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by amberwolf » Aug 10, 2017 2:00 am

RTIII wrote:There's a whole nother row of these on the other side for three parallel eyelets, apparently! Now, why you'd need three? Beats me!
Crank derailer cable
rear derailer cable
rear brake cable

d8veh
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 5479
Joined: Dec 10, 2010 10:45 am
Location: Telford

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by d8veh » Aug 10, 2017 3:16 am

2" tyres for 700C wheels? Surely, if you want tyres that size, 27 1/2" (650C) would be a better option?

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 10, 2017 11:40 am

Can't wait for Friday!

This thing has integrated bearing cups in the headtube... I've read Chris King argues against these with a specious claim that they're (all, apparently) badly made and so the bearings don't fit well and so it leads to premature scrapping of the frame because once they're worn, there's no replacing them. My reply to that is gee, they must assume nobody has access to a competent machine shop, since it would be a pretty simple operation to replace the bearing races OR simply remove them permitting the traditional separate races to be installed. It's not rocket science!
Last edited by RTIII on Aug 10, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 10, 2017 11:43 am

d8veh wrote:2" tyres for 700C wheels? Surely, if you want tyres that size, 27 1/2" (650C) would be a better option?
I have no idea if that would be a better option. The frame is designed for 700C, so I got a set of wheels on the way and a pair of tires. I asked the sales guy, a bike professional, what he could provide that would fit and work fine and he had 2" available. ... I was otherwise considering some metric sizes, like 40mm, I think, which is about 1 1/2"... Never considered a 27 1/2 wheel - would that fit the frame?

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 11, 2017 12:31 pm

From another thread, Chalo has chimed in to help me get the right headset for this build:
Chalo wrote:
RTIII wrote:[...]but what confused me was the bell or flair shaped feature of the headtube on my frame that, without further information, I took as perhaps an integrated race - excuse me "bearing cups" :roll: - that Chris King claims is such a terrible thing.
In this case it's a reinforcement, so that most of the tube can be lightweight, but the ends that get press fitted will resist getting stretched out or ovalized. In the case of integrated bearing seats, the flare is bigger and usually has a longer taper between different diameters.
He also indicated this is just a standard EC34 setup, and suggested "The Pig", which I had already noted has larger (1/4") bearing balls in the lower bearing. So, I've ordered one of those!

Now I'm trying to figure out about chains... Since the TSDZ2 pushes the chainline outboard so far that a front derailleur can be an issue, Tom here suggested a single (52T) front chainring with no front derailleur and a wider gear set in the rear. ... I ordered up already a 7-gear cassette (11 - 28), but to roughly match the 28T / 42T combo of the second chainring, I'd need a 40T rear / 52T front combo. I can get it in 9, 10, or 11 gear sets, but I think I want the widest chain due to electrification, so go 9? I could go so far as a 50 rear, I think, but at much greater cost - and I'm not sure I need it at all. ... The frame has a 135 dropout width and the matching rear wheel I ordered already has a Shimano "9 gear" freehub, I think. (I looked up the Shimano M430 freehub it comes with - seems to be a "9 gear" part.)

And, indexed shifting - not used to it yet, concerned about chain rubbing due to chainline issues. I have no idea if I can get the chainline to be straight on the middle rear gear or not! And with non-indexed shifting, I presume I can nudge thins to help avoid slight rubbing... I did order a 7 gear indexed shifter, so I'd have to change that, too...

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin Stinson Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 12, 2017 3:28 pm

Bad News, Boys And Girls, the vendor sent me the wrong frame?! :( :shock: :cry:

Here are a couple of visuals. Note that I ordered a 700C frame!

NIB:
Stinson_in_box_top_down_1_2_2.jpg
Stinson_in_box_top_down_1_2_2.jpg (73.66 KiB) Viewed 1284 times
The all-telling seat tube decal:
Stinson_seat_tube_decal_1_2_2.jpg
BUMMER! And this was, after all, after I'd contacted them, pointed out the decal indicating 26" when it claims to be a 700C, :roll: etc, etc, etc. -face-palm-

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 14, 2017 2:34 pm

So, today the vendor apologized for shipping the wrong frame - even though we'd discussed it. He said it was in fact due to the computer data still not being corrected. -shrug- We went through ALL the similar frames they had. I really wanted the Stinson version with the 700C wheel because the head tube is mounted with increased castor in that model. Oh well, better to get the deep step through in the right wheel size, so I accepted the San Rafael model instead - it's basically the same - but this time in a bluish gray instead of silver. ... I'm a bit bummed because of the color change, too, because I had ordered parts already based on a silver color scheme. :(

Here's the frame I'm getting:
SanRafael_whole_frame_right_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_whole_frame_right_1_2.jpg (64.26 KiB) Viewed 1233 times
As you can see, it's nearly identical to the other one pictured above. Other than color, the differences are only two: this is intended for 700C wheels instead of 26", and the head tube is parallel to the seat tube, instead of having more castor.

The vendor did not require me to pay for a second frame while they ship and instead is including a "return tag" for the shipping once I've got this new one in hand. Nice! So, some disappointment, but it should still work out as a great bike...

User avatar
chas58
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 816
Joined: Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by chas58 » Aug 16, 2017 8:59 am

I would be curious about the head tube angle (castor as you put it) of the two frames. I tend to like a steep head tube angle (like you got) because it makes the bike more agile, but a slack angle (more castor) will make it more stable (generally a good thing on an ebike).

I agree with above - 650b wheels in 2" size tires would be great - they have similar diameter to most 700c tires. Nothing wrong with the 700c with 2" tires (aka 29" wheels/tires). The bigger rolling diameter will give you a smoother ride over bumps. It really depends what the bike was designed for.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

User avatar
chas58
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 816
Joined: Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by chas58 » Aug 16, 2017 9:26 am

Just checked the specs on the bikes and the recommended tires:
Marin San Rafael DS2 LE Sport Hybrid Bike - 700c x 40mm tires (~1.5")
Marin Stinson - 27.5 x 2.0 tires (~50mm)

Stinsen head tube angle 68.5 (very slack)
San Rafael head tube angle 70.5 (slacker than a road bike - more like a mountain bike).

The stinsen also has a lower bottom bracket drop - again lowering your center of gravity and keeping the bike more stable.

From your comments above, I think the Stinsen with 27.5 x 2.0 tires is what you want, although I wouldn't be surprised if 700x50mm tires fit the San Rafael. The San Rafael is going to be a more dynamic agile ride (again, not what most people want on an ebike). Low and slack (bottom bracket and head tube angle) is all the rage in mountain bikes because they are so much easier to handle at speed down hill. Build up the first frame with 27.5 x2" tires, and you'll be happy.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 16, 2017 10:19 am

chas58 wrote:Just checked the specs on the bikes and the recommended tires:
Marin San Rafael DS2 LE Sport Hybrid Bike - 700c x 40mm tires (~1.5")
Marin Stinson - 27.5 x 2.0 tires (~50mm)

Stinsen head tube angle 68.5 (very slack)
San Rafael head tube angle 70.5 (slacker than a road bike - more like a mountain bike).

The stinsen also has a lower bottom bracket drop - again lowering your center of gravity and keeping the bike more stable.

From your comments above, I think the Stinsen with 27.5 x 2.0 tires is what you want, although I wouldn't be surprised if 700x50mm tires fit the San Rafael. The San Rafael is going to be a more dynamic agile ride (again, not what most people want on an ebike). Low and slack (bottom bracket and head tube angle) is all the rage in mountain bikes because they are so much easier to handle at speed down hill. Build up the first frame with 27.5 x2" tires, and you'll be happy.
Thanks for this comment, chas58,

I wish I'd been able to get the Stinsen Euro in the 700 series, but I know I don't want a 26" wheel as was all they had available.

I was curious about you finding the "recommended tires", and then it dawned on me that probably you're finding the new bikes they sell in the USA today under these names; very different bike frame, at least in terms of how the down-tube is designed. Neither of the Stinson nor San Rafael models I was looking at were ever sold in the USA and both were discontinued years ago. ... They COULD have the same aspects to the frame as the moderns under those names (ie same locations / dimensions, just different down-tube construction), but maybe not!

Still, your comments about what design features confer what advantage is very helpful, thank you, and I think I was right that I'd have preferred the Stinsen instead of San Rafael, but I think it'll still turn out fine. And yes, larger diameter tires are the way...

Meanwhile, parts are on the way! Hope to have the frame AND the new 750W TSDZ2 tomorrow and begin the build. More parts arrive Friday and it should all be on hand by Monday at the latest! :D

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 16, 2017 12:08 pm

Just got an update from DHL: Their latest text message says that they're now delivering my new TSDZ2 not ONE day early, but TWO! :D 8)

For the record, I TRIED to order it on August 7, but had trouble with the online ordering system's link to PayPal, but finally got it ordered on the 9th, and DHL says they're delivering TODAY, the 16th. ... 7 days, NOT BAD. ...For this, I paid $87 in shipping costs. The last time I ordered the same unit, shipping was $60 and it took a little over 2 weeks (of an anticipated 3 to 4).

...It was delivered AS I was typing all this! 8)

User avatar
chas58
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 816
Joined: Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by chas58 » Aug 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Sweet, its here!

yeah, the 27.5" wheel has come into fashion in the last couple of years. If it is an older frame, I would expect a 26" wheel. Either way, I think you'll be fine with the model you have. 29er wheels/tires (700c with 2" tires) should work nice. I would love to have one! ;-)
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

User avatar
Norton
10 W
10 W
Posts: 72
Joined: May 25, 2017 7:55 am
Location: KC, Mo

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by Norton » Aug 17, 2017 8:32 pm

This is a great thread !
Cool frame! Marin is a well know brand !
>Vertical drop outs on the back to handle the 'E-Power! And you can use modern a derailleur and shifter.
>Still stuck with V-brakes on the back. You'll love them!
>But there's nothing keeping you from running a disc on the front, with your new suspension fork! That's where the actions at. I like my mechanical disc brakes! Same levers as the V-brakes. Get one compressionless cable for the front.
>You could use a wide range 8-spd cassette and one shifter to keep it simple and strong. And a stock TC front chain ring of your choice.
Any 8-spd shifter can handle the shifting chores. Get a derailleur capable of the cassette range of T. All inexpensive stuff!

When I get a new bare frame I pay my LBS to chase the threads and fly-cut the paint off the BB. One tool does this quick.
Same with the head tube. Have them clean the paint off with their tool, then press in the head bearings with the other tool.
It's worth the ~$30 to have these surfaces checked and cleaned and have the bearings professionally installed. No hammers involved.

Sorry Buddy, I wanted to follow your thread and didn't see any other way to get it on my list....
Building up a bike from scratch is FUN !!!

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 18, 2017 8:36 am

chas58 wrote:Sweet, its here!

yeah, the 27.5" wheel has come into fashion in the last couple of years. If it is an older frame, I would expect a 26" wheel. Either way, I think you'll be fine with the model you have. 29er wheels/tires (700c with 2" tires) should work nice. I would love to have one! ;-)
Thanks, chas58! :D I mounted up the tires to the rims last night and aired them up, then mounted the front one to the front fork in eager expectation - along with the fender and brakes!

Actually, the fork I selected can take either a disk brake or V cantilever brakes - went with the V for now due to cost, but plan to upgrade soon. The frame, though, can't take the disk type.

The tires say they're 28" X 2" on the sidewall - kinda curious because the vendor called them 29 X 2, as you suggest (along with pure metric designations ... seem to recall 622 X 52, but they actually measure 48mm installed at about 55 PSI.

I anticipate getting the frame today, however, I also have a medical appointment regarding my knee...

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 18, 2017 9:30 am

Norton wrote:This is a great thread !
Cool frame! Marin is a well know brand !
>Vertical drop outs on the back to handle the 'E-Power! And you can use modern a derailleur and shifter.
>Still stuck with V-brakes on the back. You'll love them!
I knew you'd like this thread, Norton; no "old junk" to bitch about, but it might force you to reassess your thoughts about what I am or am not interested in, bike-wise.

I will run a disk up front when I have the cash on hand. And yes, I got a suspension fork, and fat tires as the roads around here demand it. (You CAN make the skinnies on a standard fork work, but it's literally jarring.)

For whatever reason, I'm sticking with 7 speed for the moment. I got a spacer for the cassette, and am running the same gears as the Legran. I'll be buying the lowest tooth count chainring from Tongsheng that has a high dish, and then will run three in front, just for the fun of it. I already have a 42T and 52T, and I've already developed my adapter. I guess I just want to see if it can be done and what it's like. Word is there's a dished chainring in the mid-30s T count. But, there's time for this; the TSDZ2 dramatically reduces the rider's need for a lot of gear selection, so this is more whim than necessity - and I already had the (new) 7 gear derailleur and (indexed) gear selector. ... It's all "bolt on" so can be changed to whatever else at any time there's desire and $$.
Norton wrote:When I get a new bare frame I pay my LBS to chase the threads and fly-cut the paint off the BB. One tool does this quick.
If you had ever taken the plunge, Norton, you'd know that the TSDZ2 does NOT use the threads on the BBS whatsoever.

Also, just FYI, that's a mis-use of the machinist's term "fly-cut." ... This is a "fly-cut" being performed on a Porsche head:
81013x_head_flycut_1.jpg
81013x_head_flycut_1.jpg (126.22 KiB) Viewed 1117 times
(Yes, that's a head on my milling table.) ...Fly-cutting is the horizontal planing of a surface using a specialized fixture mounted to the quill named a "fly cutter". One of the two freshly cut surfaces here has been flycut. The second freshly cut surface here was done by a process properly called "decking", but is sometimes errantly called fly-cutting by non-machinists.
Norton wrote:Same with the head tube. Have them clean the paint off with their tool, then press in the head bearings with the other tool.
It's worth the ~$30 to have these surfaces checked and cleaned and have the bearings professionally installed. No hammers involved.
Good advice for other people, but unnecessary for me. If I can install a steel valve seat in an aluminum Porsche head (as pictured above), if I can install a full circle aluminum bearing into a Porsche all aluminum crankcase, [... long list of similar jobs ...] then I can likely do a fine job on this headset and ... only an idiot would be thinking of using a hammer.

I already looked at the surfaces of the wrong frame I already got (the Stinson) and the bearing race seats appear to be well machined already and not covered in any paint, but I'll double check the second frame, of course, and will likely press the races into place, and will use temperature to help alleviate the interference fit problem. If I don't use a hydraulic press it will be because I have a handy threaded insertion method readily available which can avoid the hastle of aligning an awkwardly shaped thing - like a bike frame - into the press... I use threaded presses for all sorts of things and have a selection of such tools ready at hand.
Norton wrote:Sorry Buddy, I wanted to follow your thread and didn't see any other way to get it on my list....
Building up a bike from scratch is FUN !!!
I'll accept your apology for having been rude. Now, lets leave that in the past and, as you suggest, HAVE FUN!

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 23938
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by amberwolf » Aug 18, 2017 1:43 pm

Norton wrote:Sorry Buddy, I wanted to follow your thread and didn't see any other way to get it on my list....
Perhaps a bit harder looking would help you find the Subscribe topic link. ;)

In the Subsilver2 board style, it is up on the left below the title and "new topic" and "post reply" buttons.

If you're using a different style it may be in a different place.


There is also a Bookmark topic link if you only want to keep track of it without being notified of every reply.

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 19, 2017 1:14 pm

OK Boys & Girls, Ladies & Gentlemen, And All Others (!!)

We Have PARTS!

Over the last few days I've received something like 8 packages of parts for this bike, and, I just couldn't help myself and began assembly as soon as it was anything like reasonable to do so! And this started with the wheels. Oddly, I was waiting on wheel tape!

In mounting up the tires on the wheels, I've come to appreciate that they are better than I had expected for the money. They were something like $125 the pair, delivered.

They are: Wheel Master 700C Sun CR17 SL 36h. These are double-wall, designed for rim brakes, have eyelets, and made in the USA. Unlike a handful of StaTru wheels I've had, these had no issues with the alignment of the joint where the rim comes around and meets itself - I presume this is likely because it's a double wall, so it's easier to make a true rim. ... In any event, they have an 18mm gap for the tire. Front v rear:

o Rear: Shimano M430 freehub, 135mm wide with black QR
o Front: Shimano hub / axle, 100mm wide, with black QR
SanRafael_700C_rear_wheel_ready_1_2.jpg
To these are fitted Rubena V99 City Hopper 700C / 29 inch X 2.0 inch with wire bead in gray, Innova inner tubes in 700 x 35 / 43 c, shrader valve 38mm. ... IDK if the inner tube being a bit on the small side will be an issue or not (comments from the peanut gallery?) but the salesman said they were fine. (Of course! :roll: )

[EDIT: I should have noted that from the numbers, I think it's officially a 9 speed freehub, but I fitted to it a new Shimano 11-28T 7 speed cassette, "just because." It's got a 4mm shim behind the gear stack.)
SanRafael_700C_front_fork_assy_ready_1_2.jpg
Above we see the front wheel already mounted to the front fork with fender - and already one of the two V-brake cantilever arms! :D ... Anticipation! Behind, we see the Stinson frame for which this fork was originally selected. Looks like it would, indeed, be a fine fit for that bike, and great color match! However, the blue-ish San Rafael frame also looks fine with the silver front fork, so...

... That brings us to a peek at the San Rafael frame and a comparison with the Stinson! First, the San Rafael, by itself:
SanRafael_frame_left_3_2.jpg
SanRafael_frame_left_3_2.jpg (159.71 KiB) Viewed 1078 times
I've tried to orient the photo so that it's roughly aligned to the horizontal as it would be in service. My wild guess is that the center of the support section from seat tube to down tube is supposed to be about horizontal, so that's my target. Just looking at the frame this way, in person, one can easily see that I was wrong about the head-tube; it's not parallel with the seat tube but rather is inclined more than the seat tube - the top being more toward the seat tube. (I'm not sure in which direction this angle is usually measured - IIRC, Sheldon indicates either nomenclature has been in use. -shrug- ) Other differences and curiosities show up when laying the one frame over the other, though unfortunately, much of the detail one can see in person is hard to capture in images without elaborate setup to align the frames for photography of each specific detail. ... My narration and a few not-too-terrible photos will have to do!

OK, first something that really surprised me: The seat tube for the San Rafael is more highly inclined than the Stinson! At least, using a centered bottom bracket (even if it is here in this image rotated a few degrees because the rear forks prevent it from sitting flat), and aligning the chain stays, the San Rafael seat tube is perhaps two degrees more inclined, though installing wheels could help confirm this.
Stinson_SanRafael_frame_comparison_1_2.jpg
Stinson_SanRafael_frame_comparison_1_2.jpg (169.66 KiB) Viewed 1078 times
Another surprise was that the San Rafael frame is at least one, and perhaps as much as two inches longer than the Stinson:
Stinson_SanRafael_frame_comparison_3_2.jpg
Stinson_SanRafael_frame_comparison_3_2.jpg (231.24 KiB) Viewed 1078 times
You can also clearly see that the Stinson's head tube is much longer and rises above the downtube considerably, whereas in other image you can clearly see that the San Rafael's head tube's top is much closer to the down tube - symmetrically mounted.

Further, even more surprising was that when aligned in this way, it's clear that the San Rafael's head tube has the greater angle to increase caster (I think some call this "slack?") - that is, the top is more toward the rider. Check out this image:
Stinson_SanRafael_frame_comparison_2_2.jpg
Stinson_SanRafael_frame_comparison_2_2.jpg (159.03 KiB) Viewed 1078 times
Finally, ... I think I'm going to have to alter the front fender's attach point to use the caliper's mount instead! Whenever I mount a caliper, I'll have to re-do this, of course!
SanRafael_front_fork_closeup_left_1_2.jpg
...Today I hope to get the "cups" (races) mounted into the frame, at which point the whole bike will just fall together! 8)

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 20, 2017 1:27 pm

Yesterday was spent largely in service to others, and our usual monthly social gathering (several bike people and a few other interesting / intelligent types) pot-luck barbecue - we had 9 in total, not a bad turnout. But I didn't get much done on the San Rafael.

However, I did make some little bit of progress... I pressed on the "crown cup" (lower headset bearing's lower race) onto the suspension fork. Here's an image:
SanRafael_suspension_fork_cup_installation_1_2.jpg
Here we see the fork is supported by a large diameter solid dowel, with the crown slid down on the steerer, which had a little bit of grease applied first. Then, two spacers are above that which are a perfect match to the diameter of the steerer tube with mere thousandth of an inch or two clearance. I used two because each has a 45 degree bevel on the inside corner used to accommodate an o-ring seal on one face, and by flipping a second one back-to-back, a completely flat face was presented to the tube used to transmit the force around the steerer tube from the press shaft face. ... Seconds later, the crown cup was installed properly. 8)

Next, I decided to use close-fitting bushings on the inside of each cup that goes into the head-tube to reduce any possible change in alignment as the cups are pressed in. Each will, in turn, have a close fit to a threaded rod that goes all the way through. I considered threading these bushings, but didn't / don't happen to have the right tap on hand, so I said screw it and will just provide a minimal clearance fit - oh, 1 thousandth is a good goal, so long as it slides through just barely - so that the bushings can't cock sideways on the threaded rod.

For stock material, I just used what was on hand and the closest thing right to hand was the nose of a cracked Porsche 356 B crankshaft. It's good material, nice to put it to use on something productive. I'll provide a shoulder on one side so the bushing can't fall out of place in use and gravity will do its thing to keep the bushing in place on the other side... But, I didn't have time to finish it. Here they both are, still on the lathe waiting for the through-hole to be bored:
headset_cup_installation_bushings_being_made_1_2.jpg
headset_cup_installation_bushings_being_made_1_2.jpg (216.17 KiB) Viewed 1065 times
The keyway seen where the part is in the lathe chuck is used for the "crankshaft pulley" that drives the generator and cooling fan in service, and the second keyway at the outer end is used to keep the camshaft and distributor timing gears in alignment. This outer keyway caused there to be an "interrupted cut" in the turning down process, and yes, I lost one chunk of carbide in the effort, but it's to be expected. A line dividing the two bushings can be just barely made out in this image, about half way from the end to the shoulder - that will be the parting line, the outer part will be the gravity-positioned bushing. The inner one will be cut off with a bit of the un-touched part of the crank still attached to provide a shoulder so it won't fall through in use... I'll do both these cuts with a saw to avoid the interrupted cut problem when parting the pieces.

More to follow!

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 21, 2017 12:36 pm

Preparing To Install Headset

...We proceed with headset installation, starting with fabrication of the headset cup (race) installation toolset. Continuing from where we left off...

Here, we have the two bushings having their inner bores sized at the same time. To get the inner bore concentric with the outer bore, we start with drilling a pilot hole using a standard drill bit that's big enough for a carbide cutter to be used, much in the same manner as the cutter below, but a lot smaller. The smaller cutter is used to make a concentric bore as a drill bit's bore cannot, on a lathe, be placed accurately in the center. Once there's a concentric bore, then a standard drill bit is used to get our hole close to the finished size - this saves a LOT of time - and then the final bore is finished off a few thousandth's of an inch at a time.

Again, here's the final sizing boring going on - this was repeated several times and clearance with the threaded rod checked each time to ensure a tight fit:
Headset_bushings_being_made_1_2.jpg
Headset_bushings_being_made_1_2.jpg (150.77 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
Once done, we "parted" the pieces, first from one another, then from the source stock - the end of the Porsche B crank that served as donor. I decided to use a saw for this, and since the vertical band saws were all set up with wrong blades, I used the horizontal band saw and just held the part through the process - works fine but does take a steady hand:
Headset_tool_bushing_parting_1_2.jpg
Headset_tool_bushing_parting_1_2.jpg (139.56 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
Here's the left over bit of crankshaft - it'll, no doubt, be used for something else! It's good steel:
crankshaft_leftovers_1_2.jpg
crankshaft_leftovers_1_2.jpg (125.64 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
After parting, there were a few "cleanup" steps I performed in the lathe, but no photos. These steps were things like putting a "lead in" bevel to help insertion into the cups (races), etc. So, now we have the complete tool, here shown along with the two cups to be installed. Recall from earlier that I decided to put a lip on the bushing to be used on the upper cup so it wouldn't fall out of position (and into the cavity between cups!) during operation, while the lower one will depend on gravity for that purpose.
Headset_installation_toolset_1_2.jpg
Headset_installation_toolset_1_2.jpg (87.27 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
Now, we install the bushings into cups. Here, the upper is standing a little proud. In actual use, it sunk in about half way down into the portion that goes into the frame, which was as intended:
Headset_bushing_in_upper_cup_1_2.jpg
Headset_bushing_in_upper_cup_1_2.jpg (114.41 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
Now, the lower cup. The height seen was adjusted to where it is by using a few flat washers. The idea is that we don't want the bushing to prevent the cup from compressing as it goes into the headtube, so we have the bushing only halfway into that section, as seen:
Headset_bushing_in_lower_cup_1_2.jpg
Headset_bushing_in_lower_cup_1_2.jpg (125.62 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
...And now, finally, we're ready for the actual installation...
Last edited by RTIII on Aug 21, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 21, 2017 1:09 pm

Headset Installation

Now we're ready for the actual installation of the cups (races) into the head tube. I want to start here by pointing out that there are bevels in the frame where the cups go, and there are bevels on the edge of the cups, too, both present to aid installation and ensure an easy start to the process. If they weren't there, I'd have added them! ... Here, you can see the bottom ("crown" bearing) upper cup about to be installed, bushing in place, and note the beveled edge where it will insert into the headtube:
Headset_lower_cup_beveled_1_2.jpg
Headset_lower_cup_beveled_1_2.jpg (108.5 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
Now, not pictured, we grease the inside of the head tube where the cups will go, helping ensure they slide into place. Next, we do the preliminary positioning, gently snugging the nuts on the threaded rod by hand and getting the cups where we want them, centering the washers, etc:
Headset_installation_step_1_2.jpg
Headset_installation_step_1_2.jpg (140.61 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
With a wrench on each end, we tighten the assembly until the cups are clearly well started and on their way, but LONG before they're fully seated. We stop here so we can get the bushings out and ensure we don't "crush" them into place! Remember that the cup will shrink somewhat (what engineers and machinists call "crush") into the smaller bore they're going into, with some reduction of inside diameter... So, get the bushings out now! Here, we've stopped with both races well started:
Headset_installation_step_2_2.jpg
Headset_installation_step_2_2.jpg (58.86 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
Now, we take the bushings out, and this was greatly facilitated by the gaps and notches provided by the keyway from the original crankshaft! The notch in the lower bushing provided a place to put a needle nose plyer to help rotate and pull down on the bushing to convince it to come out and similarly the notch in the "hat" of the upper bushing also provided a spot to get purchase.

Here you can see a little of the grease that was applied inside the headtube:
Headset_installation_step_2_plus_2.jpg
Headset_installation_step_2_plus_2.jpg (71.91 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
Of course, the cups need to be fully pulled into place, so do that now:
Headset_installation_step_3_2.jpg
Headset_installation_step_3_2.jpg (78.57 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
And now the headset cups (races) are fully seated into the frame, properly installed.
Headset_installation_step_4_2.jpg
Headset_installation_step_4_2.jpg (157.4 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
Now, before we leave the subject, I thought I'd show the toolset threaded together. Here, I threaded the lower nut well up on the shaft, so it appears here shorter than it is, of course, but notice how the upper bushing is NOT falling by the weight of gravity! This is because it's a darned close fit!
Headset_installation_toolset_2_2.jpg
Headset_installation_toolset_2_2.jpg (86.61 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
(You can also see here the flat washers used under the lower bushing to set its height into the lower (crown) cup as described above.)
Last edited by RTIII on Aug 21, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 21, 2017 1:42 pm

Buildout Of Frame

Now, it's time to make use of having installed the cups (races) into the frame's headtube. We already saw the lower bearing's lower race installed - the "crown cup", so here we see the upper race's upper cup, the wedge that locks it into place, the bearings themselves and the steerer tube cap - along with another picture of the headset installation toolset shown being fabricated earlier. What I really like about this headset - why I bought it - was because of the massive size of the balls used in the lower bearing. Most sets have the same size as the smaller set here in both the upper and lower locations. ... I figure, install the stronger set now, avoid problems later!
ThePig_and_installation_tool_1_2.jpg
ThePig_and_installation_tool_1_2.jpg (241.2 KiB) Viewed 1021 times
Now, grease the bearing all up, very thoroughly, put it's seal into place, on the spot on the lower race, then the bearing, paying particular attention to which side goes up! (Hint: the open part of the cage goes DOWN on this set!) Once done, grease the entire length of the steerer tube, just in case any water DOES get in there (!!), the grease both cups mounted to the frame, and slide the front fork assembly into place!
SanRafael_frame_w_fork_1_2.jpg
Now, the stem, and if any shims are required, now would be the time! I had bought a pack of 10 "micro shims", just in case. Frankly, I didn't think I needed them, then or now, but using them gave SOME small assurance that I was "doing it right." ... Now, we have to set the bearing preload.

Not finding any directions, but just "following my nose, as I put the stem on, I threaded the steerer cap's screw and nut assembly together what felt like an appropriate amount and then used a dead-blow hammer to tap it into place so I could set the bearing preload and then I did just that. I followed an approach I've learned from several different other applications - aircraft and automotive (which agree on basic technique) - which is to snug down on the bearing while moving the bearing to ensure you haven't gone too far. Tighten in this way until you feel it's "fully and properly seated", then back off, also while still keeping it in motion, until you can just feel that there's no perceptible drag in rotation. Lock it down there! And, so I did.
SanRafael_frame_w_stem_1_2.jpg
Next I had to decide on the handlebar orientation. ... I'm used to "drop bars" but I'm going to try a more upright orientation now and was unsure how it should go. So, I just went with what felt right, figuring I can change it later:
SanRafael_frame_w_handlebars_1_2.jpg
Of course the "handlebar accessories" go on next. I just guessed at orientation. Once it's all together, I'll tweak it to whatever's preferred after the fact. But one key issue to sort out now was which accessories go on first and so forth. So, I mocked it up a time or two and came to a decision on each. From the outboard in:

Left: grip, brake lever, TSDZ2 remote controller, chainring gear selector.

Right: grip, brake lever, TSDZ2 throttle, indexed 7 speed derailleur.

Note that both brake levers are from the TSDZ2 because they have motor cut-out switches and are for V brakes.

One handlebar accessory issue, especially with the gear selectors, was diameter: the two gear selectors were for larger handlbars. To deal with it, I took a disused handlebar grip and used a pair of shears to cut off some cylindrical slices and put them onto the handlebar, then put the selectors onto them. This filled the void nicely!
SanRafael_frame_w_handlebar_accessories_1_2.jpg
Now time to put the front fender on (again)...
SanRafael_frame_w_front_fender_1_2.jpg
Last edited by RTIII on Aug 21, 2017 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RTIII
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Oakland, CA, USA

Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Aug 21, 2017 2:06 pm

As the day yesterday was winding down, I was close enough "I could taste it", but I was also tired. Still, I couldn't resist keeping going a little bit further...

I cleaned the used "suspension seat tube" and wide bottom, "comfort" seat, taken off the older Trail Way (the stem and handlebars also came from the Trail Way), and then installed the seat so I could flip the bike over and support it on some plastic "milk crates." (One of these days I'll get a proper bike stand - until then...)

Once upside down, I fitted the Tongsheng TSDZ2 which was waiting nearby. Here it is fresh out of the box showing its label. It reads that it's 48v, 4000 RPM, and 18A. ...If it ever did consume 18A at 48v, it's more like 864 watts, and at the actual pack voltage of a fully charged pack, it'd be giving out 981 watts, but it's marketed as 750 watts, which is likely a lot more realistic!
TSDZ2_motor_1_2.jpg
TSDZ2_motor_1_2.jpg (221.59 KiB) Viewed 1011 times
I did a trial fit of the motor, of course, and found that I had to grind some metal off of the separate bracket piece that goes up through the chainstays to anchor it in rotation. This was because my Marin San Rafael frame provides very little gap between the seat tube and the welded-in kickstand mount.

I also determined that I'll have to drill a hole THROUGH this same part for the rear derailleur's control cable to transit through. But I left that for another day... Instead, I just concentrated on mounting the motor and doing an initial routing of the wiring to keep the three leads out of harms way. (I'll photograph that once it's all decided for certain - right now it's just a best guess.)

Of course, I couldn't resist, and as soon as the motor was mounted, I added the left pedal! Woo Hoo! ... But NOT the right because I still have chainring work to do and was too tired to take that on right then. I then considered the rear fender mounting but it'll require modification to be attached. In particular, I need to cut it where it reaches to the rear center-pull-style caliper mounting point. Apparently this frame could also take an old-school caliper! Who Knew?! :lol: ... Anyway, it comes so close to the rear tire, there's no room, so I'll have to cut it and mount both ends of the cut on either side of the caliper mount - with a custom mount on at least one side or the other, of course! And I wasn't in the mood - or prepared - to do that right then, either.

Instead, I just mounted both tires - for the first time!
SanRafael_first_tires_mounted_rt_1_2.jpg
The front fender needed adjustment, but doesn't rub after adjustment. But the rear tire proved to have a high spot so high that it rubbed against that darned caliper mount! Damn, they should have placed that a mm or three closer to the seat! Oh well... I broke out the spoke tool and adjusted the high spot down enough that it didn't rub.
SanRafael_first_tires_mounted_lft_1_2.jpg
And with that, I left the remaining work for another day!

Post Reply