Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

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tomjasz
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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by tomjasz » Oct 08, 2017 4:37 pm

RTIII wrote:Finally got the kickstand sorted -
Looks good! I have a center stand on every bike.(down to 4, 2 running daily).
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 09, 2017 12:40 pm

tomjasz wrote:I got some interesting feedback from a reseller who has 100 more TSDZ2 motors in route. He refuses to sell throttles, and sees no need for integrated brakes since the instant the rider stops pedaling the motor stops. He thinks the throttle is a mistake for this motor. I will be removing the brake/throttle controller and go back to, the untested by me, standard torque version. He also suggests avoiding the handgrip version display, and will not sell them. Interesting feedback.
Thanks, Tom.

Yes, that feedback from your reseller friend is "old news." However, he's only partially correct - or, perhaps, omitted two reasonable counter-arguments.

First is that if I didn't have the throttle, I'd have been completely unable to do certain things I need to do in my life - running errands and so forth - since I got injured. So, there's a use-case that he doesn't address. And do remember that the whole reason I built this new bike is specifically because I was injured - my older Legran was doing just fine, I just could no longer get my damned leg over the back or front so I could MOUNT the damned thing! Then, later, especially after my crash, I really couldn't pedal at all. ... I have errands to run today so today will be a good test to see if I can pedal much or not!

BTW, it's completely insane that you have to ORDER your TSDZ2 with throttle in the first place in order to be able to use one. That is, it's insane that you can't just add a throttle later if you later decide you want one! VERY maddening. :evil:

Second is that a lot of riders, including me, have a habit of keeping one foot on a pedal in anticipation of launch - we want to have a lot of power ready, so the pedal is up at at least the horizontal, maybe more, and we have a hand on the brake to keep from launching until the right moment, typically when a light turns green! I have found that WITHOUT the brake cut-outs, the bike wants to launch because of the torque I'm applying, so I've TRIED to un-learn that habit. But WITH the brake cut-outs, this is no longer an issue - the motor wants to add power just at the same moment I do!

MANY people, including me, and your reseller friend have long advised that when selecting the TSDZ2, it should only be paired with the VLCD-5, and NOT the Xh-18 (I think it is) - for a lot of various reasons, including bad rider reports! Another is that ONLY the VLCD-5 can accept the cut-outs and / or throttle.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by tomjasz » Oct 11, 2017 12:52 pm

RTIII wrote: However, he's only partially correct - or, perhaps, omitted two reasonable counter-arguments.
Since his business model allows him to order 100 units and this is his second order, I'd say, based on far more experience, and lots of success he finds him self totally correct. VVBG He's selling scores of motors and customers are happy. Happier than I am, and with fewer problems than you are having. I still haven't changed out controllers again. It's getting cold and I'm struggling moving past the frustrations. My BBS01's now more than 3 years old, work.
Every day I get closer to giving up on mid drives for running around hear on flat streets. They are just not worth the hassle once my 01's give up. My dorky front direct drive just runs and runs and runs. No throttle issues, CA3 and regen braking, with a well tuned throttle. 48V PAS at 15-18MPH and if I need to get around quicker the 52V 20AH batt will give me sufficient miles at 27-28MPH to make a longer grocery run. My Marin will be a front MAC 10T with CA3, Infineon 12FET, capable of using any of my 36V, 48V, and 52V batteries. Full dork but I've had every Bafang mid drive (multiple 01, 02 and 3 BBSHD). A couple of MXUS DD, a 350W GD, a Magic Pie, eBike Kit GD, Yoch BBS clone, and of couple of low end kits. I just don't see the reason for not using a simple front installation if commuting, errand running, and leisure park riding on flat streets. Many American cities just don't need mid drives and the associated "adventures". But that's me. No interest in being one of the fast bike crowd and to old and infirm to climb hills. Good to chat last night...will talk soon...and solve the rest of the bike world dilemmas!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 13, 2017 3:13 pm

I'm preparing to add significantly to this bike, all related to the electrical system!

1) I'm going to EITHER go with the Speedict Mars product OR the Cycle Analyst v3 (for monitoring purposes only). And;

2) I'm going to add a 12v step-down transformer mounted to the luggage rack next to the battery and;

3) I'm going to add robust lighting, including:

A) "motorcycle" LED based tail lamp with running-light and stop light and with license light that shines down on a large "slow vehicle" warning sign often seen on tractors or farm equipment.

B) Four turn signal lamps, 15 LEDs each, for the corners of the bike.

C) A headlamp, also LED based, "classic" design styling. Its mount will be a part of the still being constructed front basket mounting system (more on that later).

4) A switch cluster for the rider including a turn signal switch, headlight switch and horn. ...I really need ONE MORE switch to do what I want cleanly, so I haven't yet decided on the function of all the switches. I will probably use the horn control to operate the stop light, but might instead use it for an actual automotive horn. ... It would be REALLY COOL if I could figure out how to use the brake cut-out switches to BOTH continue to use them for cut-out and also to use them for the tail lamp.. Then, horn will be horn! ... Most likely this will evolve over time...

5) A turn signal flasher relay that's adjustable so it will work with all LEDs.

6) Either an in-line fuse for all 12v accessories, OR a mounted 2 fuse layout mounted to the custom luggage rack.

7) A wiring harness dropping down to the trailer hitch so I can provide lighting for the trailer! 8)

Meanwhile, here's how the bike is right now:
SanRafael_left_front_quarter_1_2.jpg
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Now, from a more rearward viewpoint:
SanRafael_left_rear_quarter_1_2.jpg
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Due to popular request (some PM comments), here's a close-up of the trailer hitch and kickstand mount on the left side. Don't be fooled by the angle; the M5 screws are pretty well centered in the diagonal metal of the hitch mount. Of course, the M5 screws at the drop-out are long and the trailer hitch attaches to them via nuts on the wheel side. To wit:
SanRafael_trailer_hitch_kickstand_mount_closeup_left_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_trailer_hitch_kickstand_mount_closeup_left_1_2.jpg (194.82 KiB) Viewed 532 times
Oh, and yesterday I had a flat - and this makes the end of the too-small inner tubes I was running. NOW I have one of those prevent-a-flat liners and a properly sized tube! ... Here's how it was when I found it flat yesterday:
SanRafael_flat_1_2.jpg
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And now the too-small tube - it was split! Note that it popped while the bike was just sitting there!
SanRafael_flat_2_2.jpg
SanRafael_flat_2_2.jpg (75.64 KiB) Viewed 532 times

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Oct 14, 2017 12:05 am

Horn? Would it be possible to install something like this: (would add an extra pound to the bike but you'd be heard)

https://www.zonetechauto.com/zone-tech- ... gIrlPD_BwE

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by amberwolf » Oct 14, 2017 2:07 am

RTIII wrote:2) I'm going to add a 12v step-down transformer mounted to the luggage rack next to the battery
Make it 14-15v to power the automotive stuff to it's correct brightness.

If the other LED stuff isn't tolerant of the higher voltage, you can put a TO220 7812 regulator on it with a small heatsink.

I use a 16v 4s battery pack for my lighting, some of which is automotive/MC, and some of which is aquarium 12V stuff, and everything is tolerant of the 16v, but the LED downlighting strip on the front of the downtube gets pretty warm, so I use a 7812 powered from the pack to step that down to 12v for just it.




A) "motorcycle" LED based tail lamp with running-light and stop light and with license light that shines down on a large "slow vehicle" warning sign often seen on tractors or farm equipment.
And the back of SB Cruiser. ;)
Image

. It would be REALLY COOL if I could figure out how to use the brake cut-out switches to BOTH continue to use them for cut-out and also to use them for the tail lamp..
A little 12v relay, DPDT. Disconnect ebrake from controller entirely. One wire goes to +12v. One wire goes to one end of relay coil. Other end of relay coil goes to ground. Now ebrake engages relay.

Controller's ebrake signal wire goes to Common on one side of relay. Ground goes to that side's NO connection.

Brakelight signal goes to Common on other side of relay. If brakelight is common +V with tail, then ground goes to NO connection of that side of relay. If brakelight is common ground with tail, then +V goes to NO connection of that side of relay.



5) A turn signal flasher relay that's adjustable so it will work with all LEDs.

Automotive flasher of LED-compatible type works. I use the one from Checker/Autozone/etc, Novita EP35 IIRC:
Image

6) Either an in-line fuse for all 12v accessories, OR a mounted 2 fuse layout mounted to the custom luggage rack.
I have a breaker on the battery itself; I also have an inline fuse further down the wiring line, after an accidental short during the final phase of redoing my complete lighting wiring destroyed some wiring and forced me to redo the whole thing. :(
7) A wiring harness dropping down to the trailer hitch so I can provide lighting for the trailer! 8)

FWIW, the old 5-pin DIN from AT-style keyboards (or MIDI) works well enough for me; been using them for years. They're large enough to be easy to handle and not come unplugged during a ride. I put dielectric grease in mine to keep moisture out, and don't have corrosion problems, though it's mostly dry around here. Even in rain I don't have problems. One pin is +V, one ground, then one brake, one right, one left. Tail and downlighting powered by +V/ground. Brake is a switched ground for the brakelight LEDs. Right/left are switched +V by the turn signal switch and automotive "LED" type blinker.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 19, 2017 3:17 pm

So... The parts have been accumulating...

The brake / tail / license light assembly is very bright, but smaller than I imagined. At first I thought it was false advertising but then I measured it. THEN I compared it with the bike and it'll fit either of my two e-bike's luggage racks just fine. Will start on that today.
SanRafael_tail_lamp_1_2.jpg
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I also got the turn signals in. The only annoyance is minor: they need an M10 through hole for mounting, but the only other size I could find was only M8, and they were more than double the price and not as great in terms of length, shape, etc. So, FOUR M10 holes coming up!
SanRafael_turn_signals_1_2.jpg
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amberwolf wrote:Make [the DC-DC converter] 14-15v to power the automotive stuff to it's correct brightness. If the other LED stuff isn't tolerant of the higher voltage, you can put a TO220 7812 regulator on it with a small heatsink.
Great advice, except that the only way I could find to easily do that was going to require me to do the packaging, and I can't justify the time versus dollars as the pre-packaged is also cheaper. However, I've tested the lamps that have shown up so far and they're just fine at a nominal 12. :)

So... I looked at literally hundreds of DC/DC converters and considered price, shipping delay, and most of all features, such as high and low ends of the range, wattage, and protective features. I also did an analysis of my watts needs and did in fact determine that 5A was probably plenty, but as not all the components have been selected yet - the biggie being headlamp(s) - I was concerned there might not be an excess capacity, especially considering the trailer and that I might add extra lighting for great visibility. So, in looking at 10A units, I ended up getting a 25A unit - which surprises even me. One key reason was that just as I was about to buy a 10A unit, I stumbled across this 25A unit and it was only about $1.85 more or thereabouts than the 10A I was just about to buy and it has better rated efficiency. ... In making that decision, I considered possible accessories, and I have an inverter that would let me potentially have mobile AC power for parties around Lake Merritt, for example. Both units had the exact same footprint, same over / under voltage, overheating protections, etc, and, for all practical purposes, identical weight. So, I figured what the heck? The only likely downside is it may have higher "at rest" consumption - neither gave me a rating for that.
SanRafael_DCDC_converter_2_2.jpg
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This unit is a lot smaller than it might appear in photos!
SanRafael_DCDC_converter_1_2.jpg
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Amberwolf, your brake lamp answer needs some dissecting!
amberwolf wrote:
. It would be REALLY COOL if I could figure out how to use the brake cut-out switches to BOTH continue to use them for cut-out and also to use them for the tail lamp..
A little 12v relay, DPDT. Disconnect ebrake from controller entirely. One wire goes to +12v. One wire goes to one end of relay coil. Other end of relay coil goes to ground. Now ebrake engages relay.

Controller's ebrake signal wire goes to Common on one side of relay. Ground goes to that side's NO connection.

Brakelight signal goes to Common on other side of relay. If brakelight is common +V with tail, then ground goes to NO connection of that side of relay. If brakelight is common ground with tail, then +V goes to NO connection of that side of relay.
...First, I take it that "NO" stands for "normally open". If not, I'm lost about that.

Second, "Common" is, in my use of it in DC electric circuits, the same thing as "ground" and in AC circuits it's a synonym for "neutral." ...So, you lost me on that one again since you talk about some connections going to ground and others going to common.

Third, if I read you right, you make a HUGE presumption; that the TSDZ2's brake cut-out system will take 12v. I have good reason to believe the control system for the TSDZ2 works on 6v, but it's only an inference. I DO HAVE a possible source of 6v from the TSDZ2 system itself, but it'll be a pain to run it there, but I could do it.

Fourth, I have TWO brake cut-out switches, and I don't yet know if they're normally open or normally closed and which position they're in when braking, but I can figure that out. ...I'll need to create a logical OR circuit. I have done this before in my distant past - but it's been a while. However, I can PROBABLY work out how to do this where the "or" result is either "high" (+v) or "low" (0v). ... Again, packaging will be an important factor. Plus, I have to return the signal(s) back to the TSDZ2 for that part to function properly.

Just a suggestion; can you draw out your suggestion as a "wiring diagram", snap a photo of it and post it? It would be a lot more clear to me!

As for fuses, my battery pack has a 50A fuse inside the pack. I don't expect to use even half that, so I've decided on a 4 fuse box I have on hand. It has two of the fuses joined on one end; I'll run the battery pack to that. The propulsion system will get a 25A fuse right there, and the DC/DC converter will get a second 25A fuse from the second lead at that point. The 12v from the DC/DC system will then feed both of the two independent fuses, one will do the "running lights" and the other will do all the other "accessories." This, because I see the running lights as the most important accessory.

I have several fuse boxes just like the one here, but I think that maybe ONE of them has a removable cover! If so, I'll be using it! (I have more of the screws - I do note that two are missing in the photo.)
SanRafael_4_fuse_box_1_2.jpg
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The suggestion to use a computer keyboard cable is a reasonable one - IF, that is, I have any old keyboards I care to scrap, as I've already scrapped MOST of that older AT style equipment, oh, some 10+ years ago now! However, I was looking at the younger stuff and think it may well be up for the task, especially since I'm planning on running all LED lighting, so very little current. And, I already have it on hand!

Oh, and I've decided to add a "cigarette lighter", so that it'll be super easy to plug in that inverter I spoke of, or any other such accessory. And, the one I picked has an insert to provide two USB chargers, too.

It's coming together!

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by amberwolf » Oct 20, 2017 2:31 am

RTIII wrote:Amberwolf, your brake lamp answer needs some dissecting!
amberwolf wrote:
A little 12v relay, DPDT. Disconnect ebrake from controller entirely. One wire goes to +12v. One wire goes to one end of relay coil. Other end of relay coil goes to ground. Now ebrake engages relay.

Controller's ebrake signal wire goes to Common on one side of relay. Ground goes to that side's NO connection.

Brakelight signal goes to Common on other side of relay. If brakelight is common +V with tail, then ground goes to NO connection of that side of relay. If brakelight is common ground with tail, then +V goes to NO connection of that side of relay.
...First, I take it that "NO" stands for "normally open". If not, I'm lost about that.
Yes, sorry about the abbreviations (common in electronics, not so much outside that I guess).


Second, "Common" is, in my use of it in DC electric circuits, the same thing as "ground" and in AC circuits it's a synonym for "neutral." ...So, you lost me on that one again since you talk about some connections going to ground and others going to common.
Common in the case of a relay is the pin on each relay contact that is common to a set of NO/NC (normally open / normally closed) pins. The "center" pin as it were.

Third, if I read you right, you make a HUGE presumption; that the TSDZ2's brake cut-out system will take 12v. I have good reason to believe the control system for the TSDZ2 works on 6v, but it's only an inference. I DO HAVE a possible source of 6v from the TSDZ2 system itself, but it'll be a pain to run it there, but I could do it.
No--there is no voltage on the relay contact pins, only on the coil pins. The contact pins (NO/NC/Common) only have whatever voltages are on them that the wires coming into them supply. So the side for the brake light is isolated from the side for the controller's ebrake line. The ebrake side is just switching the ebrake on and off just like the switch in the brake lever does.

So it doesn't matter what voltage the controller uses for brakes, it still works. :)
Fourth, I have TWO brake cut-out switches, and I don't yet know if they're normally open or normally closed and which position they're in when braking, but I can figure that out. ...I'll need to create a logical OR circuit.
Just parallel them, as they are paralleled to the controller anyway. No other components are needed.

2-wire Ebrake switches are just about always NO, so they only close when you pull the lever. (the actual switch inside is really a NC type, but it's held open by the lever until you pull it).



( 3-wire ebrake switches are completely different, and are (probably always) hall-sensor types (same kind as in motors, not throttles), but they're also rare. I've only run into one company that used them (Fusin) and they're not around anymore. I'm sure others use them too, but haven't seen one. )


Just a suggestion; can you draw out your suggestion as a "wiring diagram", snap a photo of it and post it? It would be a lot more clear to me!
There's probably already a diagram like it in Teklektik's "how to wire 12v brake light and turn signals" thread, or one of the other threads like that.

If you don't see one I can sketch one up when I get a chance.



The suggestion to use a computer keyboard cable is a reasonable one - IF, that is, I have any old keyboards I care to scrap, as I've already scrapped MOST of that older AT style equipment, oh, some 10+ years ago now! However, I was looking at the younger stuff and think it may well be up for the task, especially since I'm planning on running all LED lighting, so very little current. And, I already have it on hand!
PS/2 and USB connectors can probably handle the current, but they don't stay plugged in nearly as well as AT ones do, and they aren't as good at wiping their contacts clean of corrosion and/or keeping stuff out in the first place (even if filled with dielectric grease).

FWIW, the keyboards themselves aren't the usual source of my trailer hitch cables--it's the extensions, because they have male and female already on them. Just cut in half and wire one into bike and one into trailer. I use the female on the bike so that there's no exposed pins with power on them to be shorted by it dangling and touching metal when not in use.


Oh, and I've decided to add a "cigarette lighter", so that it'll be super easy to plug in that inverter I spoke of, or any other such accessory.
Yeah, I have one for the trike too (it's not mounted yet); makes using small car air pumps, USB car chargers, etc., easy. The one I have was given to me, so I don't know where it came from, but it is weather-resistant with a strong-spring-loaded cap.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by d8veh » Oct 22, 2017 5:34 am

Those tyre liners cause more punctures than they save. My advice is to get a pair of Schwalber Marathon Plus tyres and wave goodbye to punctures.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 23, 2017 12:11 pm

d8veh wrote:Those tyre liners cause more punctures than they save. My advice is to get a pair of Schwalber Marathon Plus tyres and wave goodbye to punctures.
Well, on my very first trip out with these Rebena tires, a trip of less than 3 miles, I got a flat caused by a super-small bit if wire. Frankly, I was shocked such a small piece could ever get in to puncture a tire! It turns out I'd taken bad advice on tube sizes and had bought four too-small tubes, and really wish I hadn't as they'd pop when you weren't even riding! But, I figured I might as well use them up since I didn't have any other bike that needs that size. So, when I got another flat from one of these too-small tubes, I bought the tire liners. They weren't cheap, but not too expensive either, and so far, so good, but then I only have about 14 miles on them! My perception was that they fit the tire better than I thought they would. ... My engineering experience says that they'd be more likely to cause a flat if they're installed overlapping the wrong way - in one direction, they'll creep, in the other direction they shouldn't. The guy who sold them to me said DO NOT cut them to just fit - let it overlap because the ends thin out for smooth transition.

I did notice, however, that they throw the wheel a bit out of balance at the overlap spot as it's a bit heavy, so on the second one I tried to install it opposite the stem. IDK if that did any good.

But I'm always on the lookout for learning new things and getting good advice, so I checked in to your suggested Schwalbe tires - and they ain't cheap! Woo Hoo! $50+ each. I think I paid about $14 each for the Rubenas, and $16 each for the liners. So, I've got about $30 invested. ... When I'm looking for a new tire, I'll probably try the Schwalbe, but there's another engineering concern and an aesthetic: The engineering issue is that my fenders just barely clear the Rubena tires; they may not take another tire if it's ANY larger in any of its radius that's under the fender. So, one at a time, it's a $50+ gamble... The aesthetic issue is that the grey Rubena's really help make the bike look outstanding, though the safety of the reflective sidewall on the Schwalbe is perhaps worth it...
Last edited by RTIII on Oct 23, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 23, 2017 12:24 pm

More progress on the San Rafael's lamps and electrical accessories: I got the switch cluster and installed it.
SanRafael_handlebar_accessories_left_1_2.jpg
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It has a three position turn-signal switch, left, right, and off, in black.

It has a push-on push-off headlamp switch, in red.

It has an intermittent switch for a horn, in green.
SanRafael_handlebar_accessories_left_2_2.jpg
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I particularly like that it's supposed to be "waterproof", and also that it's narrow on the mount, so it fits right in.

I also like how its angle works, ergonomically. It has a good reach for my hand-size. I have no problem either avoiding it entirely or actuating any of the buttons easily without losing grip and can even blow the horn while braking without any trouble! And, I like how it mates up with my front derailleur - the angle matches exactly. So long as it holds up in service, it's a good product.

Because of its' 22 gauge wire size, and because of the extra lighting I'll be pushing (eg the trailer), I'm going to use relays to increase the output to larger gauge.

Meanwhile, I checked and found that the brake switches are open when the brakes are OFF and closed when the brakes start to be used.

So, I'm now in search of a small black plastic box to do a build of these components into and a handful of relays...

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 23, 2017 12:57 pm

Less than 2 weeks ago I got a flat on my stand up scooter, 20 miles away from home, was putting it on the bus anyway, but had to pump up near the bus stop and ride as fast as I could to home from there, made it most of the way before having to walk it .
After taking the tire and tube off, I could not see the item that flatted it. I could only feel it , just barely . Got a Magnifying Glass and still could not see it.
Got a very bright flash light and sharp small knife and dug it out.
It was the smallest piece of wire I have ever seen puncture a tire !

Changing a Tire/Tube on an electric scooter is hard and time consuming,

I put in a tire liner, Mr Tuffy,
Having seeing what a tire liner did to my tube on the bicycle made me take it off the bike, but on a scooter with nearly an hours work to change a tube/tire
It has to go on.
So
What I did was to take some strong fiber tape that I have lying around, and alternated taping the side of the liner to the tire so it would not slip, then I found the spot to cut it to where it , does Not , overlap, cut it to fit, and taped both ends together, now it should not slip on the tire, but even if it does, it will not slip in such a way as to overlap, where is where the problem is , as far as I can figure out with those tire liners. ( overlaping causes wear on the tube itself , to the point of wearing a hole or spot where air can now leak out ) .

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by amberwolf » Oct 23, 2017 6:43 pm

To "safely" use tire liners you can take the already-popped tube, cut the stem off, slice it open along the inner circumference, (spoke side), then place that as a cover over your new tube.

Put the tire liner in the tire, between the gutted tube and the tire.

Assemble the tire/tube/etc on the wheel, and inflate.


Once this is done, you not only have the tire liner to stop many types of punctures, you have the extra thickness of the old gutted tube between the road and the inflated tube.


If you don't mind the rolling resistance and weight, you can add multiple layers like this, or even old tire carcasses with the beads cut off. :)

But just one layer is enough to keep tire liners from taking out your tubes, as long as you install them right to start with, and keep the inflation pressure sufficient to keep the liner from worming around in there.

If you run low pressure, liners won't stay in place, and start cutting things. (and they work their way up the sidewalls and stop protecting against punctures in the tread area)

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 24, 2017 12:37 am

Thanks guys!

These are great tips! And like you, Scooterman, I would never have thought such a tiny bit of wire could ever even get through the damned tire, but I guess it shows the tire manufacturers are in the protective liner business! :lol:

Today I got the new front disk hub and started to figure out just what spokes I'll need.
SanRafael_FrontHub_Disk_HB-M525A_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_FrontHub_Disk_HB-M525A_1_2.jpg (92.18 KiB) Viewed 395 times
I knew I didn't have the right spokes, but I do have some that are close, so I laced it up anyway, just to get a feel for it. First, of course, delace and compare hubs, write down data...
SanRafael_FrontHubs_side_by_side_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_FrontHubs_side_by_side_1_2.jpg (193.68 KiB) Viewed 395 times
Then, lace it up:
SanRafael_front_wheel_relace_wrong_spokes_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_wheel_relace_wrong_spokes_1_2.jpg (193.08 KiB) Viewed 395 times
I figured from that exercise that I'll need spokes 3 and 6mm shorter, respectively - mostly because the two hubs have radically different hole diameters.

Given my empirical measures, and that I had 293 and 295mm spokes, respectively, I estimated 290 and 292 as my new lengths.

Next up, I took all the various measurements and set about using Sheldon's Spoke calculator... And came up with ... what I at first thought was a mistake - they didn't agree?! So, I took a second look... Did I lace it correctly? Hmmm... Old lace:
SanRafael_front_wheel_orig_lace_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_wheel_orig_lace_1_2.jpg (182.14 KiB) Viewed 395 times
Now, the new lacing:
SanRafael_front_wheel_new_lace_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_wheel_new_lace_1_2.jpg (185.64 KiB) Viewed 395 times
Yep, looks correct, but... Oh, Now I see it! :lol:

My error was it's a 3 cross, not 4! And therefore, Sheldon says: 290.7 and 292.1, respectively! NOT BAD! I bet that 290mm spoke would work instead of the theoretical 290.7 - and 292 and 292.1 are essentially identical! YAY!

OK, parts being ordered!

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Oct 30, 2017 2:49 pm

Still waiting on spokes, so I proceeded to complete the front derailleur installation.

The issue was / is that the TSDZ2 moves the chainline so far outboard, I couldn't find any derailleurs that would go that far, mostly because the manufacturers don't generally market front derailleurs by publishing the data on just how far inboard and outboard they may go. So, I blame the manufacturers for my having had to do this!

I started by selecting from among all the "braze on" type clamps and derailleurs I could find that might possibly work - and found it bizarre that none of the clamps and none of the derailleurs seemed to be made for one another. ... I obviously don't yet know what the market intends one to do here!

At least the derailleur I chose - a new Shimanno SLX FD-M671 "3 speed," dual pull type - was only $6 and change, delivered. I chose it because I figured a derailleur designed for three chainrings would have more "throw" than one designed only for two, and because it had what looked to be the easiest mounting strategy - like it's designed to be butted against a part with a straight edge permitting up and down adjustment using an M6 screw.

[Below: Right hand view of the "braze on" mount for the front derailleur.]
SanRafael_braze_on_mount_right_quarter_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_braze_on_mount_right_quarter_1_2.jpg (210.45 KiB) Viewed 324 times
I then trial fit the braze-on mounting ring in various locations and orientations, including rotational position, height, and which direction the clamp arms went around the seat post (that is, "which end should be 'up'?"). I had to make it so that the clamp didn't interfere with the rear brake control cable, which limits rotational position. In the end, I chose an orientation that put the mounting tang in front of the seat tube.

[Below: Left hand view of the "braze on" derailleur mount.]
SanRafael_braze_on_mount_left_quarter_1_2_2.jpg
SanRafael_braze_on_mount_left_quarter_1_2_2.jpg (220.76 KiB) Viewed 324 times
I then got the chain out of the way and figured height issues. With the mounting ring as low as it would go, the adjustment still had to be lower, and I also had to factor in rotational issues in the longitudinal axis. So I settled on an aluminum rectangular bar coming aft with two M6 screws attaching it to the mounting ring. This would permit an aluminum bar to project rearward sufficiently and then height would be about right if the clamping screw were centered in the AL bar. I left cutting the length and making the two screw bores until after the rest was ready to ensure it would all work together since any rotational issue with the mounting ring would change the required length. And, the mounting screws would be better projected from the rearmost (centerline) as they proceed outboard.
SanRafael_front_mount_parts_2_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_mount_parts_2_2.jpg (73.39 KiB) Viewed 324 times
Then, there was the question of how to attach to the clamping ring? It has a curved tang?! WTF is THAT all about?! I never found any good reason / excuse for that curve - no pictures, no text, no matching derailleurs designed for it - nothing! I also couldn't find any that had flat tangs?! WTF is up with that, too?! ... So, rather than waste time on something I cannot change anyway, I got on with it.

This meant that there had to be a curved part on BOTH sides of the clamp tang, one convex, the other concave, and within the slot, two M6 fasteners would go. ... OK, with that decided, now what?

The inside radius of the tang was somewhere between 4.5 and 5mm, which meant a 9 to 10MM round part could be a starting point. I took a nominally 10M diameter stud and whacked off both ends and mounted it in the mill's vice and then faced off just less than half of the diameter, giving one flat face and the other half round. Then, while still in the vice, I drilled two holes so that there would be rotational stability in the longitudinal axis (that is, so it wouldn't rotate like a bicycle pedal).

I drilled these two holes anticipating threading them with an M6 X 1.0 tap, however, in looking at the part after drilling the holes, I realized that tapping them would leave insufficient strength! It was then that I realized the holes were barely big enough for an M5, but that two M5s would do great, so I switched to M5, the only issue being that it was now too late to thread the part for M5 X 0.8mm, so nuts would have to do. (Either that or make another part.)

The other side of the curved mounting tang had a radius of around 8.5 to 9.5mm, or, the same curve as the circumference of a 17 - 19mm bore. So, I selected an end mill in that range and cut an aluminum block, edge on, slightly offset from one side so that it'd be as wide as it could be toward the seat tube. I then took it to the bench grinder and trimmed down one edge so it'd fit the mounting ring's shape perfectly - got it pretty darned close. ... And then I enlarged ONE of the two mounting holes which would provide for some rotational adjustment of the bar that gets bolted on since the projection of the derailleur rearward was going to have an effect on getting it rotationally spot-on, so the outer chain guide's inner radius matches the same center as the chainring itself.

In the picture below, you can see the steel half-round inner radius part with the two M5 holes laying on top of the spacer that has the outer radius of the curved mounting tang, and its two M5 holes, one enlarged for rotational adjustment of the rearward projecting bar shown above.
SanRafael_front_mount_parts_3_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_mount_parts_3_2.jpg (80.38 KiB) Viewed 324 times
The last fundamental to determine was the thickness of the block that mounted to the outside curve of the mounting ring's tang - that part determines the ultimate offset from centerline of the derailleur. ... Some careful measurements were made. I adjusted the derailleur all the way inward, measured the offset from its mounting tang to chain position and compared that with my measure of offset from centerline of the inner chainring to the outside face of the curved mounting ring tang. I then subtracted 1/2 of the chain's width and the thickness of the horizontal bar that the derailleur itself would contact and mount to, and that gave me the thickness of the spacer that mounts to the mounting ring's tang... I decided to make it a tiny bit thinner so there'd be SOME adjustment room!

I then took all the pieces to the bench grinder and "softened" the edges, as you can see in the above images, and assembled it all together. Here's the backside, showing all the parts:
SanRafael_front_derailleur_w_mount_backside_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_derailleur_w_mount_backside_1_2.jpg (224.81 KiB) Viewed 324 times
And here's the finished assembly - minus any painting or whatever:
SanRafael_front_derailleur_w_mount_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_derailleur_w_mount_1_2.jpg (234.96 KiB) Viewed 324 times
...I can't mount it yet because the longest screws I have on hand in M5 are only 40mm, and I need 45 - so, waiting on that, then I'll mount it up and see how well it works!

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by JDMopar » Oct 30, 2017 3:11 pm

Glad I clicked on this thread, you're doing some quality work here. As an ex-bike shop mechanic (not fired haha), I can say you'd probably be hired on the spot. Course that probably comes as no surprise given your Porsche background, but believe me I know some good car mechanics who just don't "get" bikes. You're clearly not one.

So.......I guess we're friends now...could I get the keys to your machine shop? :mrgreen:

I'm pleased enough to watch your progress here.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by JDMopar » Oct 30, 2017 4:31 pm

I will add one thing after looking at your wheel lacing more closely. The "heads out" spokes 3-cross pattern should be 'under/under/over'. That is, find a spoke with it's head facing out from the hub and follow the spoke toward the rim. It should go under the first and second spokes, and then it must go over the third before finding the nipple. And it follows that the "heads-in" spokes should be 'over/over/under'. Forgive me if I'm mistaken (I'm looking at a 5" smartphone screen), but it appears that your spokes don't follow that pattern.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Nov 01, 2017 1:00 pm

JDMopar wrote:I will add one thing after looking at your wheel lacing more closely. The "heads out" spokes 3-cross pattern should be 'under/under/over'. [...snip...] it appears that your spokes don't follow that pattern.
Yes, and that was intentional because it was only a "mock up." Remember, I knew I had the wrong length spokes, so I knew it wouldn't be worth the time to bother with a proper lacing; I was doing it only to get a feel for spoke length OTHER than using any of the various spoke length calculators that are now available on the net. So, this was just a quick exercise for fun and learning.

I'm a bit annoyed with Federal Express; they've had my spokes in my local area for a couple of days now, according to their tracking system, but they aren't delivering because the original shipper didn't pay for faster service. Otherwise, I could have had the spokes back on Monday - and therefore show the completed wheel today! Oh well, will update the thread when there's more to show!

(And speaking of, I've got more electrical components enroute, too...)

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by JDMopar » Nov 01, 2017 1:16 pm

Gotcha! My mistake.

Yes FedEx sucks big time in my experience. Rungs below USPS and UPS.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Nov 01, 2017 1:45 pm

JDMopar wrote:Gotcha! My mistake.

Yes FedEx sucks big time in my experience. Rungs below USPS and UPS.
Damn, I made a tiny oversight in my complaint just now: The expected delivery time window for my new spokes opened YESTERDAY. So, they WERE paid for it already! But they have until the 8th before they're officially late - it was a huge time window...

What's also weird are the latest (most recent) updates on shipping status for those spokes. Get this (order reversed from the way they do it so here it's older first):

4:30 am Shipment information sent to U.S. Postal Service

5:50 am In transit to U.S. Postal Service OAKLAND, CA

WTF? So, for "the last mile", they're handing it off to the U.S. Post Office?! :evil:

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by amberwolf » Nov 01, 2017 3:59 pm

There's a lot of deliveries made this way. USPS is probably trying to stay afloat by contracting in teh final deliveries from these other companies.

These days I see USPS trucks out and about at all hours, before dawn and long after dark; and on Sundays as well. That would never have happened a couple of years or more ago, definitely not a decade ago and before. Previously, if it didn't go out during the "9-5" (or less hours) shift, it would just have to wait till the next day, regardless of "guaranteed delivery" times, for USPS express or priority mail/etc.

All of the Amazon deliveries I see in the area for people I know get them regularly (like Prime Pantry) are made by USPS, even their Prime ones--they used to ahve Prime-specific Amazon-logo'd vans for this, but I never see them now.

I rarely see UPS or Fedex or DHL trucks anywhere in my area now--almost always USPS.


I'm expecting to see pizza deliveries by them any day now. ;)

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Nov 02, 2017 11:37 am

Gotta say besides all the crafty machine work you've done on the bike I also really like the nice purple color, I like purple! Always wanted a frame about that color, closest I ever came is a nice metallic midnight blue. Too many silver and especially matte black frames being produced lately, to me that matte black stuff is a bit depressing,

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Nov 02, 2017 12:39 pm

Raisedeyebrows wrote:Gotta say besides all the crafty machine work you've done on the bike I also really like the nice purple color, I like purple! Always wanted a frame about that color, closest I ever came is a nice metallic midnight blue. Too many silver and especially matte black frames being produced lately, to me that matte black stuff is a bit depressing,
Thanks, Raised, though you will note that this color wasn't my first choice. ... My first priority was details of the frame and they only had one color for each type, I think.

Also thanks for the comments on the machine work. It sure helps to have all these machine tools at hand! :D When I bought them, I could not reasonably justify the expense, but did it anyway, and I'm so glad I did because they've opened up whole new areas for me and have in fact paid for themselves many times over by now. ... Do Note that even if all you have is a drill press, you can get a small "cross table" that'll give you a bed you can mount to which can then be moved in two axies and thereby enable a lot more sophisticated machine work; what I've done here could have been done on such a setup rather inexpensively.

I had also meant to reply to this post from JDMopar:
JDMopar wrote:Glad I clicked on this thread, you're doing some quality work here. As an ex-bike shop mechanic (not fired haha), I can say you'd probably be hired on the spot. Course that probably comes as no surprise given your Porsche background, but believe me I know some good car mechanics who just don't "get" bikes. You're clearly not one.

So.......I guess we're friends now...could I get the keys to your machine shop? :mrgreen:

I'm pleased enough to watch your progress here.
Thanks to you, too, JDMopar. My first mechanical love was flying and long before I had a driver's license, I was a student pilot and had the good luck to apprentice during my summers as an Airframe and Powerplant mechanic at a local airport. This gave me a real sense of proper use of materials: weight matters, strength matters, not creating stress-risers matters, etc. The point is "what is the minimum that is also sufficient and which gives a reasonable safety margin?" And, bikes like airplanes - and cars - are systems and all the components have to work together.

Speaking of which, one of my components isn't working out really: The rear derailleur control. It is easy to push in one direction and sticks in the other causing the whole assembly to rotate on the handlebar. The fault lies in the fact that it's designed for a larger handlebar diameter and I'm using a spacer to get it to fit, and that spacer doesn't have the grip required.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it. ATM I'm just occasionally rotating it back into position, but sometimes the sticking has led to derailment from a front chainring. This may be mitigated by having the front derailleur mounted - will see - but even then I'm not happy about it. ... I'm expecting the M5 mounting screws I need for the front derailleur to arrive today...

UPDATE: The spokes are also due to be delivered today. However, I'm busy building a 1960 Porsche 356 engine (type 616/1).... Might not have time for the bike today!

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Nov 03, 2017 6:35 pm

So... I got the spokes! YAY! Time to build a new wheel.

Knowing how, it didn't take too long, though truing it up always seems to take a while, though I'm getting faster at it.

Oh, for a brief refresher: this is now a fully custom made front wheel. It's a 700C Sun CR18 SL 36H double wall with recessed spoke holes and eyelets (622 X 18) with Shimano Deore M525A quick release front axle laced with stainless steel 2mm spokes, 290 and 292mm in length (if I recall correctly - check a few posts back to be sure).

Here's a close-up of the laced axle:
SanRafael_front_hub_and_lacing_1_2.jpg
Shimano Deore M525A laced in with new stainless steel spokes in a cross 3 pattern.
SanRafael_front_hub_and_lacing_1_2.jpg (210.26 KiB) Viewed 243 times
Now, here's the whole wheel, with tire mounted:
SanRafael_front_wheel_w_disk_hub_1_2.jpg
All New, custom made wheel: 700C Sun CR18 SL 36H double wall with recessed spoke holes and eyelets (622 X 18) with Shimano Deore M525A quick release front axle.
So, now, attach the disk! I'd bought Shimano Rotor Fixing Bolt & Lock Washer kit BR-M395 - it claims to be the "second generation". -shrug- I like the lock tabs! ... Um I mean washers!

First, you must have a special bit to use these bolts and a torque wrench - don't over-or-under do it!
torque_wrench_w_special_bit_1_2.jpg
Torque wrench with special bit for the Shimano Rotor Fixing Bolts, BR-M395
torque_wrench_w_special_bit_1_2.jpg (118.97 KiB) Viewed 243 times
Now, align the lock tabs ("washers"), install screws and torque em!
SanRafael_front_disk_mounting_closeup_1_2.jpg
Closeup of Shimano Deore M525A front axle with Avid BB7 160mm diameter disk brake being mounted using Shimano "2nd generation" lock tabs and special bolts BR-M395.
SanRafael_front_disk_mounting_closeup_1_2.jpg (147.05 KiB) Viewed 243 times
The rotor is an AVID brand 160mm BB7 type. ... And now it's mounted:
SanRafael_front_disk_mounted_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_disk_mounted_1_2.jpg (206.36 KiB) Viewed 243 times
Time to install it! I had borrowed the front wheel off the Legran, as you can see here - this was just to keep the bike rideable as it's my primary means of transportation:
SanRafael_standing_vertically_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_standing_vertically_1_2.jpg (164.9 KiB) Viewed 243 times
Neat how it stands vertically, eh?! :D ... So, swap it out:
SanRafael_standing_vertically_2_2.jpg
SanRafael_standing_vertically_2_2.jpg (146.1 KiB) Viewed 243 times
While I was at it, I'd bought a new set of Kool-Stop multi-compound brake pads, so I installed them at the same time - this required readjustment of the V-caliper.

For those interested, note that I intend to provide support for BOTH the front disk AND the original rim brake! Stay tuned to this thread for more! ... I'm guessing it'll take me another week, hopefully not more than two to get the new brake cable system going, but it could take longer as it's also custom designed. 8)

Oh, I also opted for a low-beam standard all-the-time headlamp and a separate, bring only when needed, 5,000 lumen headlamp with its own separate power supply that CAN use the bike's "traction battery" if necessary. In this way, I only carry the extra weight when I think I'm going to be out where there are no street lights, etc, and the extra illumination forward is necessary, and I won't deplete the mounted battery just to run the headlight, but have the choice to do so if desired. ... Plenty of images and such coming! ... Anyway, the separate battery came today - it claims 50 ah. IDK what the lamp's watts or amps ratings are because they didn't publish it (what do you expect for $6?) but it can't be more than 2.1A, so that's about 25 hours of use... I think this battery should do just fine! :D Only downside - it only charges at 1A. :(

BTW, the ole Legran ALSO stands on its tail like a Lipizzan horse! ... I train all the horses in my stable to do so! :D
Attachments
Legran_standing_vertically_1_2.jpg
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Last edited by RTIII on Nov 05, 2017 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Marin San Rafael Euro frame-up TSDZ2 powered build

Post by RTIII » Nov 03, 2017 9:07 pm

Chomping at the proverbial bit, I went ahead and mounted up the disk brake caliper, following the directions from the Avid web site. This is the BB7 type.
SanRafael_front_disk_brake_mounted_1_2.jpg
SanRafael_front_disk_brake_mounted_1_2.jpg (196.33 KiB) Viewed 239 times
One thing I found very disappointing was that when I spin up the front wheel, it always rubs some, and there doesn't appear to be a damned thing I can do about it. Izzat normal?! :?

My overall plan is to be able to run BOTH the V brake and the disk brake at the same time on the front wheel and can choose which I want at the time. I'm doing this for a few reasons: One is to get my own perceptions as for which is better as I've heard (read) people whose opinions I respect greatly speak unfavorably about disk brakes; this is about as pure an apples-to-apples comparison as one might possibly make! Another is that it might be safer with two, as if anything goes wrong with one, you have the other. (I've heard of impacts on a rim making a rim brake non-functional. Of course something could happen to a disk, too...) And, this might be a great thing to develop for people who do crazy things like ride a bike down steep mountain roads! If you had TWO friction surfaces to heat up, it might be a LOT safer... I mean, you could get your disk brake glowing-hot, then switch to the rim and let the disk cool, and later repeat! Or, maybe it's better to use both at the same time and spare both from getting excessively hot? Only testing will prove the point!

I'd love to get insights into any of that - Chalo? You still reading this thread?

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